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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 7:31 am 
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:51 am 
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Good morning

It looks like another social democratic party in Europe that embraced the tenets of the right and the market is going to lose badly - following on from Germany and France

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... s-in-wings

These parties now seem to have an identity crisis and do not seem to be able to pull themselves out of the traps they have set for themselves - whenever they criticise the right then those previous policies are thrown back at them (similar to PFI and privatisation has been thrown back at Labour last week)

Perhaps this is why Labour are actually of interest as they are making that transition back to a true socialist party and have put clear water between them and the right (all this frothing nonsense about hard left) although their actual policies in quite a few areas are not that different from the continental parties - the mood music about the market and inequality is significantly different

Labour are now unflankable on the left in England, as can be seen from the Greens and the Lib Dem vote collapse - although a place for the Greens is important, I am less concerned about the demise of the LD. In Scotland is is trickier because of the nationalist/unionist background noise and the missteps of Slab over the last few years

The FPTP system vs PR is also a major difference between us and the continent which I am also sure makes a difference

Friedmann says that there needs to be crisis that can be exploited to make a real change - he and his outriders took advantage of the end of Bretton Woods and the oil crisis in order to be able to get their ideas introduced through Thatcher and Reagan. Although there ideas weren't necessarily much difference from the old 'laissez-faire' policies of pre-WW1 economies

I believe that we should always focus on the outcomes versus how they are delivered - which allows for a true mixed economy. The current Labour Party, despite what some would have you believe, is making no plans to take us back to the nationalisation of the 70s and is probably the best placed to deliver a good solution. The state has to have a role in not just regulating markets but also be part of the delivery if that is the best option. Strategically important public services should be in public ownership with a properly configured way of funding

I see Corbyn as being the person who has wrenched Labour back from an inextricable lurch tot he right under Blair in his latter years - although an honourable mention goes to Ed Miliband. Perhaps Miliband would have been a better successor to Corbyn than the other way round. I hope that when Labour choose a successor they choose wisely.

I just hope that Brexit will provide that 'crisis' (although the whole of Government seems in crisis) that will destroy the Tories capability to govern for long enough to allow a repositioning.

The banking crisis failed to deliver this change in approach unfortunately, although you would have thought it would, with the UK buying in to the right wing narrative that it was due to too much public spending


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 9:16 am 
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In addition, I do have the perception that the left is much more prepared to compromise (when I say 'left' it is relative) and seem to lack courage to fight for their convictions - if they have any that is

Look at the US overnight - the Democrats have little power at the moment and I know my interpretation could be too over-simplistic but I detect that there is a feeling the Senate has compromised too far on the budget

People like Trump seem to derive some of their popularity from giving the impression of being decisive although this is far from the reality- it is the impression they give

I wonder if there are any lessons we on the left can take from that...and stop being so compromising in our language. Perhaps it may not work in the UK culturally but we should keep it in mind


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 9:24 am 
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Theresa May needs to ‘impose BRITISH MILITARY’ to get best Brexit deal, says William Hague
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THERESA May needs to impose Britain’s military strength on the European Union to get the best Brexit deal next year, the UK’s former foreign secretary, William Hague, suggested last night.

He really didn't, but 10/10 for concocted, jingoistic headline.(Daily Express)


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 9:47 am 
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Morning!

Yes HSOM1 significantly Labour aren't making state ownership a thing in its own right, rather than a means to an end in delivering for the many not the few.

Ed Miliband got this too didn't he, though not without difficulties. If Labour can be seen as speaking up for small businesses in the face of untrammelled global capitalism they will be in a good place.

I know I probably overemphasise this being a Yorkshireman, but I do believe there are regional forces at play here. Regardless of left and right, in my lifetime London has come to dominate England too much IMHO.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 10:31 am 
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Was in the crowd for this - amazing experience.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 10:38 am 
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https://news.sky.com/story/tsunami-warn ... e-11219220
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Parts of Alaska and the west coast Canada have been issued with a tsunami warning and a tsunami watch is in place for the entirety of the the US west coast, including California and Oregon, part of Washington state and Hawaii, with "hazardous tsunami waves" possible within the next three hours.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 11:10 am 
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Morning All.
Equipped with a periscope?
Good-morning, everyone


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 11:10 am 
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Jeremy Corbyn@jeremycorbyn
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Hugh Masekela was a titan of jazz and of the anti-apartheid struggle. His courage, words and music inspired me, were heard across the world and strengthened the resolve of those fighting for justice in South Africa.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 11:16 am 
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Today's UQ from @PeterGrantMP on the High Court judgment on judicial review against Personal Independence Payment regulations, is expected at 12.30pm


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 11:59 am 
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Yes, the Italy situation is concerning.

Despite my disagreements on some things, Renzi was a genuinely outstanding politician (very reminiscent of early period Blair, and I mean that in a good way)

But he overreached himself a few years ago and his party has never really recovered from that.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 12:14 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Yes, the Italy situation is concerning.

Despite my disagreements on some things, Renzi was a genuinely outstanding politician (very reminiscent of early period Blair, and I mean that in a good way)

But he overreached himself a few years ago and his party has never really recovered from that.


Trying to draw analogies with Blair is completely unhelpful. Italian politics is utterly different from UK politics.

Renzi was discredited by his failed constitutional referendum. The fact remains however that he was right to try, and his reforms were good. Better to have tried and failed, than not to have tried.

The "left" in Italy are in a far worse state than the social democrats. The SI/MDP will come nowhere. At least Renzi's PD will come a (poor) third.

The right and populists dominate Italian politics (the eurosceptic M5S and Berlusconi's reborn FI).

If you want to draw a parallel with the UK, it is in the rise of populists offering simplistic solutions (leave the EU, nationalisation). Reason is apparently on the retreat everywhere.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Its still amazing that Berlusconi is making any sort of comeback, now *there's* somebody who I thought had been irretrievably discredited.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 12:28 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Its still amazing that Berlusconi is making any sort of comeback, now *there's* somebody who I thought had been irretrievably discredited.



Trump syndrome. Or perhaps Trump is Berlusconi syndrome.

I don't think the UK is (quite) a plutocracy yet.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Donald Trump has set a new bar for politicians that is so low, even Berlusconi is now found to be credible in comparison.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
Donald Trump has set a new bar for politicians that is so low, even Berlusconi is now found to be credible in comparison.



I think Berlusconi is considerably worse. He is a convicted fraudster whose control of the media poisons Italian politics. Fox doesn't dominate the media in the way that Berlusconi controlled channels do.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 12:56 pm 
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I've received two Labour Party membership cards through the post (same membership number, separate envelopes). That makes it three (so far) for the current year. I'm hoping to collect a full pack.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:02 pm 
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I find it difficult to try to make a comparison as who is worse when comparing two despicable people

Mind you Blair seems to have been prey close to Berlusconi

The possibility of Berlusconi coming back emphasises for me why EEA/CU from outside EU would not be acceptable - this individual would have more say than we would on decisions affecting our economy and regulatory rules, along with some fascists of course


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:09 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Donald Trump has set a new bar for politicians that is so low, even Berlusconi is now found to be credible in comparison.



I think Berlusconi is considerably worse. He is a convicted fraudster whose control of the media poisons Italian politics. Fox doesn't dominate the media in the way that Berlusconi controlled channels do.


It wasn't a serious comment.

I would suggest, however, that Trump's instability and the questions facing his inner circle over financial irregularities and Russian connections amid the ongoing Mueller investigation make your assumption that Trump isn't worse than Berlusconi somewhat premature.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:24 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find it difficult to try to make a comparison as who is worse when comparing two despicable people

Mind you Blair seems to have been prey close to Berlusconi

The possibility of Berlusconi coming back emphasises for me why EEA/CU from outside EU would not be acceptable - this individual would have more say than we would on decisions affecting our economy and regulatory rules, along with some fascists of course


If being in the SM and CU stops suiting the UK in the future because of decisions taken by new leaders within the EU countries, then we could always leave at that point, but I see no reason to leave in anticipation of something that may never happen. We are a declining power that has decided to walk away from a seat at an influential table. Unless we change our mind about leaving, we are guaranteed to lose control over many things that effect us, with little say over what happens next. We are ceding control, not getting it back. Why make things worse by walking away from the benefits of the SM and CU as well?

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:34 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find it difficult to try to make a comparison as who is worse when comparing two despicable people

Mind you Blair seems to have been prey close to Berlusconi

The possibility of Berlusconi coming back emphasises for me why EEA/CU from outside EU would not be acceptable - this individual would have more say than we would on decisions affecting our economy and regulatory rules, along with some fascists of course


If being in the SM and CU stops suiting the UK in the future because of decisions taken by new leaders within the EU countries, then we could always leave at that point, but I see no reason to leave in anticipation of something that may never happen. We are a declining power that has decided to walk away from a seat at an influential table. Unless we change our mind about leaving, we are guaranteed to lose control over many things that effect us, with little say over what happens next. We are ceding control, not getting it back. Why make things worse by walking away from the benefits of the SM and CU as well?



I could perhaps go with that, especially with the 2 year transition period that Labour have already proposed, although I doubt leaving would be quite as you suggest....that may be a fairly convoluted process as their is a financial implication for the EU as well

I am not, however, one of the substantial number of people who voted to Leave and I also do not want to see a solution that is inherently unstable and will lead to Farage and others continuing to use the EU as a scapegoat for decisions taken by the Tories

The argument I made when people said that our relationship was undemocratic was to point out how we were at the heart of the decision-making. That will no longer be a valid argument.

I do not think enough people have changed their minds to make this solution viable in the long-term solution - and some may actually go the other way


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:38 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find it difficult to try to make a comparison as who is worse when comparing two despicable people

Mind you Blair seems to have been prey close to Berlusconi

The possibility of Berlusconi coming back emphasises for me why EEA/CU from outside EU would not be acceptable - this individual would have more say than we would on decisions affecting our economy and regulatory rules, along with some fascists of course


If being in the SM and CU stops suiting the UK in the future because of decisions taken by new leaders within the EU countries, then we could always leave at that point, but I see no reason to leave in anticipation of something that may never happen. We are a declining power that has decided to walk away from a seat at an influential table. Unless we change our mind about leaving, we are guaranteed to lose control over many things that effect us, with little say over what happens next. We are ceding control, not getting it back. Why make things worse by walking away from the benefits of the SM and CU as well?


Similarly, it is just false to think that Norway has no say in SM rules.

Not that it matters. The leadership of both main parties oppose membership of the SM and the CU, so we're out of both long term. If the two main parties have the same policy, and they do, that is that. it doesn't matter what Caroline Lucas or Mary Creagh or other sensible people think.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:46 pm 
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On tax hypothecation

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/10348


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:48 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
I find it difficult to try to make a comparison as who is worse when comparing two despicable people

Mind you Blair seems to have been prey close to Berlusconi

The possibility of Berlusconi coming back emphasises for me why EEA/CU from outside EU would not be acceptable - this individual would have more say than we would on decisions affecting our economy and regulatory rules, along with some fascists of course


If being in the SM and CU stops suiting the UK in the future because of decisions taken by new leaders within the EU countries, then we could always leave at that point, but I see no reason to leave in anticipation of something that may never happen. We are a declining power that has decided to walk away from a seat at an influential table. Unless we change our mind about leaving, we are guaranteed to lose control over many things that effect us, with little say over what happens next. We are ceding control, not getting it back. Why make things worse by walking away from the benefits of the SM and CU as well?


Similarly, it is just false to think that Norway has no say in SM rules.

Not that it matters. The leadership of both main parties oppose membership of the SM and the CU, so we're put of both long term. If the two main parties have the same policy, and they do, that is that. it doesn't matter what Caroline Lucas or Mary Creagh or other sensible people think.


By all accounts Diane Abbott didn't know if she was for or against staying in the Customs Union the other day, so there may be some room for manoeuvre. :)

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Norway's rights (along with the other members) are set out in the EEA agreement and there are some areas where it is consulted but there is no right to vote on any of the measures that affect it

In theory there are some other areas of leeway but there are penalties as well so they are very rarely, if at all, invoked

The fact that EEA members have no vote, have theoretically some more leeway, and also exclude agriculture and fisheries suggest that they are not on the same playing field as the EU members.

All this is set out clearly in the EEA treaty which sets the framework of the relationship between the EU and the signatories

http://www.efta.int/Legal-Text/EEA-Agreement-1327

Funnily enough the phrase 'Single Market' does not appear in the agreement which is a bit odd as this seems to be what it confers membership of


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:

By all accounts Diane Abbott didn't know if she was for or against staying in the Customs Union the other day, so there may be some room for manoeuvre. :)



All of Labour's policy on the EU is like Schrödinger's cat in a sense. And that ambiguity has served them well electorally.

But the bottom line is it is settled by Corbyn and McDonnell, and for anyone paying attention it is clear what they think. On this at least, they agree with the government.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 1:56 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Willow904 wrote:

By all accounts Diane Abbott didn't know if she was for or against staying in the Customs Union the other day, so there may be some room for manoeuvre. :)



All of Labour's policy on the EU is like Schrödinger's cat in a sense. And that ambiguity has served them well electorally.

But the bottom line is it is settled by Corbyn and McDonnell, and for anyone paying attention it is clear what they think. On this at least, they agree with the government.


any one paying attention who thinks that needs to pay more attention


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 2:16 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
I've received two Labour Party membership cards through the post (same membership number, separate envelopes). That makes it three (so far) for the current year. I'm hoping to collect a full pack.

You're the Lucky Labour Winner, PorFavor!
WoooooHooooo!


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 2:30 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
I've received two Labour Party membership cards through the post (same membership number, separate envelopes). That makes it three (so far) for the current year. I'm hoping to collect a full pack.

You're the Lucky Labour Winner, PorFavor!
WoooooHooooo!


I've been trying to fathom out what brought on the flurry of activity - my renewal date is in late summer.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Just another point on the EEA agreement between EFTA and EU - I assume from what people say and that the EU will not look favourably at a bespoke agreement that this will be the agreement we would enter into

So we join EFTA and then sign this

If this is the case then we can see clearly what the relationship will be - or the base of it as we may want to go a little further in some areas (eg agriculture and fisheries) which will be a specific bilateral agreement with us and the EU.

The CU I assume is the same as now and we would just apply the Customs Code as has been set out here

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... ms-code_en

This is much easier for me at least to look at as it sets out clearly what things mean - and leave no room for misunderstanding and different definitions.

Is this everyone else understanding too?


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 2:56 pm 
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https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-4270876 ... ssion=true


Neglect and abuse claims on rise in sheltered housing


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 3:54 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
I've received two Labour Party membership cards through the post (same membership number, separate envelopes). That makes it three (so far) for the current year. I'm hoping to collect a full pack.

You're the Lucky Labour Winner, PorFavor!
WoooooHooooo!

I've been trying to fathom out what brought on the flurry of activity - my renewal date is in late summer.
I've created a collage with my Labour party membership cards - charming work
My tarot card readings and sticker art alone will keep you, HindleA, Mr citizen and myself in victuals post-Brexit


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 4:04 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
---
The CU I assume is the same as now and we would just apply the Customs Code as has been set out here

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... ms-code_en

This is much easier for me at least to look at as it sets out clearly what things mean - and leave no room for misunderstanding and different definitions.

Is this everyone else understanding too?
(cJA edit)

I'm unable to answer your question, please excuse me
I've not been following EU legislation at this level
I do appreciate the link, thank you


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 4:42 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
You're the Lucky Labour Winner, PorFavor!
WoooooHooooo!

I've been trying to fathom out what brought on the flurry of activity - my renewal date is in late summer.
I've created a collage with my Labour party membership cards - charming work
My tarot card readings and sticker art alone will keep you, HindleA, Mr citizen and myself in victuals post-Brexit


I've got all my party membership cards going back to 1992, its interesting to see how they have changed in that time!


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 5:14 pm 
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I think this is indicative of the through-the-looking-glass thinking in some parts of govt, this is *unt.
Quote:
I think the issue is the legal underpinnings to that. If that regulatory alignment is agreed between two sovereign powers, the EU and the UK, with international arbitration, or an agreed arbitration if one party thinks the other party is breaching that agreement, then I think that is completely acceptable and I think that is the kind of relationship that could work every well, not just in pharmaceuticals but also in life sciences, also financial services as well.

What I think is difficult to square with my view of what people voted for would be an arrangement where we were obliged to change our regulations in response to a unilateral change in regulations made by the EU going forward. I don’t think that would be compatible with having control of our own destiny.

I don't know what to say really, they're utterly deluded.

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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 5:21 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:


On this, I have some sympathy - have never been convinced that hypothecation is some "magic bullet".


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 5:31 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
SpinningHugo wrote:


On this, I have some sympathy - have never been convinced that hypothecation is some "magic bullet".



I think hypothecation sounds good on paper but struggles in the real world - not necessarily because it is a bad idea it is that Governments have a habit of not playing by the rules

We do use if for the tv licence of course and I suppose that we could call the whole student funding a variant on a hypothecated graduate tax


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 5:50 pm 
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 72541.html
"Germany warns UK must deal with 'leftovers' from previous phase of Brexit talks if it wants a deal"


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 5:53 pm 
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 74306.html
Jeremy Hunt admits EU cancer drugs will not be available in Britain if Brexit talks break down


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 6:33 pm 
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tinybgoat wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leftovers-talks-dates-germany-peter-ptassek-angela-merkel-a8172541.html
"Germany warns UK must deal with 'leftovers' from previous phase of Brexit talks if it wants a deal"


We should just shout at them louder, that will work :D


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:13 pm 
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Quote:
Labour NEC intervenes in Haringey development row

Labour's National Executive Committee has called on the party's councillors in a north London borough to halt a controversial housing project.

It has advised Labour-run Haringey to pause the project - which has split the local party - if mediation aimed at overcoming the divisions fails.

The project is opposed locally by pro-Corbyn pressure group Momentum.

Momentum is likely to have a strong influence on council policy if Labour wins the May election, so the future of the scheme had already been in doubt.

Momentum immediately welcomed the NEC decision - and some will see this is a symbol of the group's growing influence within the party.

But the BBC understands that the national executive's vote was unanimous, with backing from both the left and right of the party. (BBC News website - my emphasis)


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42795708


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:42 pm 
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Quote:
Doctors blocked by Home Office from taking up vital NHS jobs

Recruits from overseas not being paid enough to satisfy immigration rules (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/23/doctors-blocked-by-home-office-from-taking-up-vital-nhs-jobs


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:48 pm 
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This is an appalling read

https://amp.ft.com/content/075d679e-003 ... ssion=true


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:51 pm 
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RoT

Did you see the offer the FT has for free subscriptions to secondary school children? They can register if their school registers. I don't know whether you're still involved as a governor(??) but it is a good offer I think.

The FT and the Economist are the best papers by far for secondary school children.


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:51 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:54 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:57 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
RoT

Did you see the offer the FT has for free subscriptions to secondary school children? They can register if their school registers. I don't know whether you're still involved as a governor(??) but it is a good offer I think.

The FT and the Economist are the best papers by far for secondary school children.


Good that they give subscriptions if that is the case but these are both publications that champion the free market orthodoxy that has been in place since the 80s - perhaps they make up part of the reading material for youngsters but I would hope that anyone reading these is getting another point of view that challenges this orthodoxy

There aren't many on the left anymore as the New Statesman has deteriorated under recent editors so they will have to go online to find some blogs etc


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:58 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Quote:
Labour NEC intervenes in Haringey development row

Labour's National Executive Committee has called on the party's councillors in a north London borough to halt a controversial housing project.

It has advised Labour-run Haringey to pause the project - which has split the local party - if mediation aimed at overcoming the divisions fails.

The project is opposed locally by pro-Corbyn pressure group Momentum.

Momentum is likely to have a strong influence on council policy if Labour wins the May election, so the future of the scheme had already been in doubt.

Momentum immediately welcomed the NEC decision - and some will see this is a symbol of the group's growing influence within the party.

But the BBC understands that the national executive's vote was unanimous, with backing from both the left and right of the party. (BBC News website - my emphasis)


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42795708
I like it when Labour is unified


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 8:59 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Quote:
Doctors blocked by Home Office from taking up vital NHS jobs

Recruits from overseas not being paid enough to satisfy immigration rules (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/23/doctors-blocked-by-home-office-from-taking-up-vital-nhs-jobs

oh, good lord


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PostPosted: Tue 23 Jan, 2018 9:00 pm 
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I'm going to sleep now, everyone
Please have a good night
love,
cJA


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