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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 7:09 am 
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 7:37 am 
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Cough"Thursday"

I have enough confusion over starting and finishing work on a different day,but that's me until Sunday(or is it Monday)


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 7:52 am 
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HindleA wrote:
Cough"Thursday"

I have enough confusion over starting and finishing work on a different day,but that's me until Sunday(or is it Monday)

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 7:58 am 
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Y'areet Bonnylad ?


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 8:25 am 
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My particular job can't be automated.Certainly an eye opener to me as per what jobs/tasks existed,the more skilled/mechanical/better paid are more under threat.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 8:26 am 
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Good morning

I see Mrs May has gone out of her way to antagonise the Europeans again - for no real reason except to placate the nutters in her own party

I think this announcement should nail the lie that there is no difference between Labour and the Tories, seeing that Labour are committed to the EEA/CU for the transition at least

I also would ask on those that keep saying Labour should say NOW that they are committed to the status quo post-transition too - why NOW? What is the benefit?

My view has been set out many times before but no-one has explained to me why there is an imperative thast Labour has to commit NOW. This has been the mantra for 18 months now - but there seems to have been little impact from waiting....the same people told me NOW had to be 18 months ago that are telling me the same today

My position is clear.l To avoid economic and social damage we have to maintain the 'closest possible links' to the EU institutions. The only way to do this is to be part of the internal market as now and I do not thionk that there is a sustainable way to do that outside the EU.

The status quo but outside the EU may work economically but not politically. It is still a bad option, just better than the others. By committing to that the press and Tories will jump on them and point out, rightly, the flaws in the position and that the natural consequence is that we should stay in

There is no credible 'pay, no say option' for the medium to long term

The sensible political position at the moment is the current one - commit for transition and be very ambiguous on what comes after. Once the negotiations start and the consequences become even more apparent of what the real deal will look like then the argument can start in earnest and what is acceptable may change

The Overton windowseems to contain 'Leave' or 'Just Get On with it' at the moment. This needs to shift to include 'Remain' and it doesn't at the moment. To arrange this shift then we need to have some events to catalyse it and politicians espousing it credibly

I agree that Labour could do more to be preparing for the movement but the main driver will be events and they are not happening yet.

So, in summary - the final state we should aim for seems to be coalescing now. The Overton window needs to shift and that will be many driven by events - we need the negotiations to start in earnest. Labour are the only party that seems to have credibility across the Leave/Remain divide at the moment (if we concentrate on England) and they need to keep that so moving too soon without events to help them will cause a loss in that credibility

This is no longer an economic argument - it is purely political now.

Oh, and as a final point - we need a Labour Government to get anywhere- so we need also to see them banging on and undermining the Tories across all policy areas, and not just Brexit. Brexit is subject where they can only lose at the moment, not win. Focus on public services, poverty etc until Brexit opportunities arise. If we can get a Labour Giovernment before the end of the transition (March 2019 seems unfeasible) then there may be a way to get some deal or move towards reentry - a long shot but that is all we have

That is my position - I may be wrong but I would like those people who say Labour must to commit NOW to tell me why that is the case, as I am have seen nothing convincing.

Just remember too that we lost the referendum - sometimes there is a feeling that this can be ignored (legally it could be of course) but the roadmap must deal with this head-on. Second referendum, parliamentary vote, election etc could all be options but none look easy. The legacy of Cameron and Osborne - thanks guys!


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 8:33 am 
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I think this is an argument about strategy rather than about principles but the problem I have is that, even in the short term, you leave yourself in the position of arguing in favour of a situation that will leave us worse off than we are now, and will actually create a political situation that has never existed before, despite the nonsense of the leave campaign, where we are bound by arrangements but without power to influence them, and could make the drive to leave completely and without arrangements even stronger in the longer term, against just getting on with acknowledging the fact that the leave campaign was full of lies and that we won't fight for the right to do the country down - and that this should start now (or 18 months ago) rather than later in the hope of electoral expediency. I won't repeat myself in detail but I don't believe there is any possibility at all of an election this side of leaving - short term electoral popularity just doesn't matter here, even if it is an issue that would be effected by being more clear about needing reconsider.

I'm not suggesting referendum results don't matter and I think the situation is very difficult but Labour should have been spending all of this time developing public opinion against this status quo and towards a demand for a rethink and they just haven't.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 8:35 am 
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Just to add - May this morning is making it clear yet again that she is playing loudly to her extreme nutjobs and not to trying to culture any acceptance of a watered down exit. If she was actively trying to create a situation where even the arrangements from December were at risk and we have to be set to accept crashing out without a deal now, she couldn't really be doing any better.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 8:46 am 
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adam wrote:
I think this is an argument about strategy rather than about principles but the problem I have is that, even in the short term, you leave yourself in the position of arguing in favour of a situation that will leave us worse off than we are now, and will actually create a political situation that has never existed before, despite the nonsense of the leave campaign, where we are bound by arrangements but without power to influence them, and could make the drive to leave completely and without arrangements even stronger in the longer term, against just getting on with acknowledging the fact that the leave campaign was full of lies and that we won't fight for the right to do the country down - and that this should start now (or 18 months ago) rather than later in the hope of electoral expediency. I won't repeat myself in detail but I don't believe there is any possibility at all of an election this side of leaving - short term electoral popularity just doesn't matter here, even if it is an issue that would be effected by being more clear about needing reconsider.

I'm not suggesting referendum results don't matter and I think the situation is very difficult but Labour should have been spending all of this time developing public opinion against this status quo and towards a demand for a rethink and they just haven't.



1. As the Norway option leaves the UK 2% worse off, and the Canada option 5-8% worse off, it is much to be regretted that Labour has made no attempt to argue for the Single Market (or even the Curstoms Union save on a transition basis, which the Tories also agree with). It is also much to be regretted that Labour voted to trigger art 50 without any conditions at all.

There was the opportunity to pursue a more pro-EU and construct a coalition around a softer Brexit. Owen Smith wanted to go for that in the 2016 leadership electionm but he was inevitably thrashed. That election was lost, and so we got the Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne approach instead.

2. As Wren-Lewis points out, the now agreed position on Ireland means staying permanently in the CU is inevitable. Starmer clearly thinks that too if you follow him. It makes no sense for Labour, even pursuing its slightly more Remain-y strategy, not to commit to it now. Commit, and when it inevitably happens claim it as a victory.

It is now logistically too late to hold a second referendum.

3. There is not going to be a change of government until there is a general election. There won't be one until either

(a) it looks like the Tories can win, in which case they'll call one

or

(b) more likely, they hit the buffers in 2022.

So the only viable strategy was to construct a coalition of Labour, Other, Moderate Tories to push for a softer Brexit. Labour never went for that strategy, because Corbyn didn;t want to. Why not? All the evidence (before, during and after the refeerendum) points to his longterm oppostion to the EU.

No doubt "the real fight starts now". Any minute. Just about to. Just hold on a bit longer.

4. Vote Green is my advice. Vote for a party that doesn't facour making the poor poorer, rather than one that does. Don't be complicit in wrongdoing.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 8:47 am 
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adam wrote:
I think this is an argument about strategy rather than about principles but the problem I have is that, even in the short term, you leave yourself in the position of arguing in favour of a situation that will leave us worse off than we are now, and will actually create a political situation that has never existed before, despite the nonsense of the leave campaign, where we are bound by arrangements but without power to influence them, and could make the drive to leave completely and without arrangements even stronger in the longer term, against just getting on with acknowledging the fact that the leave campaign was full of lies and that we won't fight for the right to do the country down - and that this should start now (or 18 months ago) rather than later in the hope of electoral expediency. I won't repeat myself in detail but I don't believe there is any possibility at all of an election this side of leaving - short term electoral popularity just doesn't matter here, even if it is an issue that would be effected by being more clear about needing reconsider.

I'm not suggesting referendum results don't matter and I think the situation is very difficult but Labour should have been spending all of this time developing public opinion against this status quo and towards a demand for a rethink and they just haven't.


I did say they could have done more to drive the shift in the Overton Window but this is difficult to do by argument alone - the same arguments you link to were the same used in the referendum and they were rejected. This is compounded that the acute risks as set out by Osborne did not transpire (and the argument Carney save the day by cutting interest rates, and releasing liquidity just does not hold water - it was a lousy politically motivated action) has damaged the credibility of the more sober and accurate chronic ones

The chronic effects though, by their nature, are slow to transpire and a lot of the current issues we see were already in place before the referendum. The pound had already weakened, living standards were already under attack, the cuts in public services were already there for example.

The problem is the Remain arguments are the same as the referendum and people just have stopped believing them. It is not that they are wrong it is just that the people whose opinion we need to shift don't believe them.

I think the release of this document may be one of those events and it will need Labour to face up to some hard questions if we are to exploit them. That is fine. The Tories though spent their time undermining the numbers - if Labour and the Tories were the same then Labour would have been doing the same


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:04 am 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
... this is difficult to do by argument alone - the same arguments you link to were the same used in the referendum and they were rejected. ...

The problem is the Remain arguments are the same as the referendum and people just have stopped believing them. It is not that they are wrong it is just that the people whose opinion we need to shift don't believe them.


Apologies for the snipping - I agree with this and again, without repeating myself at too great length, I think the situation we are in is hopeless. I would only say that things that should have been obvious lies during the campaign are now obvious lies in reality. I'm sure a lot of people won't accept this, either because they are the lying liars to start with or because it's more comfortable to believe a stupid easy lie than an uncomfortable truth. As we get closer - as we are this morning - to leaving without a deal at all, I suspect there will be come kind of shift in opinion when reality actually assaults people, but there will still be some who tell us that it's all the fault of europe and immigrants and there will still be plenty who want to believe that. *shrug*. Screwed.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:05 am 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
Owen Smith wanted to go for that in the 2016 leadership electionm but he was inevitably thrashed.


Owen Smith wanted history to record that Labour were to blame for what had happened, to shift responsibility away from the conservatives and to make sure they had a get out clause, in the all but certain knowledge that he would lose the election and therefore do nothing but rewrite that history in the conservative's favour.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:13 am 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
adam wrote:
I think this is an argument about strategy rather than about principles but the problem I have is that, even in the short term, you leave yourself in the position of arguing in favour of a situation that will leave us worse off than we are now, and will actually create a political situation that has never existed before, despite the nonsense of the leave campaign, where we are bound by arrangements but without power to influence them, and could make the drive to leave completely and without arrangements even stronger in the longer term, against just getting on with acknowledging the fact that the leave campaign was full of lies and that we won't fight for the right to do the country down - and that this should start now (or 18 months ago) rather than later in the hope of electoral expediency. I won't repeat myself in detail but I don't believe there is any possibility at all of an election this side of leaving - short term electoral popularity just doesn't matter here, even if it is an issue that would be effected by being more clear about needing reconsider.

I'm not suggesting referendum results don't matter and I think the situation is very difficult but Labour should have been spending all of this time developing public opinion against this status quo and towards a demand for a rethink and they just haven't.



1. As the Norway option leaves the UK 2% worse off, and the Canada option 5-8% worse off, it is much to be regretted that Labour has made no attempt to argue for the Single Market (or even the Curstoms Union save on a transition basis, which the Tories also agree with). It is also much to be regretted that Labour voted to trigger art 50 without any conditions at all.

There was the opportunity to pursue a more pro-EU and construct a coalition around a softer Brexit. Owen Smith wanted to go for that in the 2016 leadership electionm but he was inevitably thrashed. That election was lost, and so we got the Corbyn/McDonnell/Milne approach instead.

2. As Wren-Lewis points out, the now agreed position on Ireland means staying permanently in the CU is inevitable. Starmer clearly thinks that too if you follow him. It makes no sense for Labour, even pursuing its slightly more Remain-y strategy, not to commit to it now. Commit, and when it inevitably happens claim it as a victory.

It is now logistically too late to hold a second referendum.

3. There is not going to be a change of government until there is a general election. There won't be one until either

(a) it looks like the Tories can win, in which case they'll call one

or

(b) more likely, they hit the buffers in 2022.

So the only viable strategy was to construct a coalition of Labour, Other, Moderate Tories to push for a softer Brexit. Labour never went for that strategy, because Corbyn didn;t want to. Why not? All the evidence (before, during and after the refeerendum) points to his longterm oppostion to the EU.

No doubt "the real fight starts now". Any minute. Just about to. Just hold on a bit longer.

4. Vote Green is my advice. Vote for a party that doesn't facour making the poor poorer, rather than one that does. Don't be complicit in wrongdoing.



What is being proposed is not 'Norway' - it is a completely new arrangement. This arrangement is a 'pay, no say' arrangement as it stands. It goes much further than the EEA. I was under the impression everyone knew this but I was in an argument with an ardent and policially aware Remainer that thought they were. Does everyone know that 'Norway' is not a real option either to meet the December agreement principles?

What is annoying me is that we see people suggesting that the answer to all our problems is for Labour to say 'EEA/CU', and we have to do it NOW or it will all be a disaster

Firstly, the Tories are in Government not Labour which gives us an advantage in that we can wait until something happens - the Tories do not have that luxury. Why would we throw away that advantage by committing too soon? A serious tactical error in my view

Secondly, the definite commitment would be a real event on the timeline. It would give something for the press and the Tories to get their teeth into - and there is plenty for them. The reasons are explained above. We would be in the ridiculous situation of the opposition committing to something that gives ammunition to a beleagured Government with no clear benefit apart from 'we can say we told them so' at a later date!

We also have to realise the hard negotiations haven't happened yet. All we have is an interim agreement on principles that the Tories will never be able to deliver. This will become clearer and clearer as time progresses. The press (apart from some exceptions) has been pretty poor at pointing out that we have agreed absolutely nothing up to now . allowing the Government to waffle on about the Florence Speech as if it was something substantial. The legally binding agreement on the Phase 1 principles and the scope of the transisition are up for negotiation soon. Let Labour see what comes out of them and use them to frame their policy - rather than taking a leap of faith that could lead to a real loss in ccredibility


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:15 am 
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Disadvantaged pupils achieve lower grades in north than in London


https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... -in-london


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:21 am 
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adam wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
... this is difficult to do by argument alone - the same arguments you link to were the same used in the referendum and they were rejected. ...

The problem is the Remain arguments are the same as the referendum and people just have stopped believing them. It is not that they are wrong it is just that the people whose opinion we need to shift don't believe them.


Apologies for the snipping - I agree with this and again, without repeating myself at too great length, I think the situation we are in is hopeless. I would only say that things that should have been obvious lies during the campaign are now obvious lies in reality. I'm sure a lot of people won't accept this, either because they are the lying liars to start with or because it's more comfortable to believe a stupid easy lie than an uncomfortable truth. As we get closer - as we are this morning - to leaving without a deal at all, I suspect there will be come kind of shift in opinion when reality actually assaults people, but there will still be some who tell us that it's all the fault of europe and immigrants and there will still be plenty who want to believe that. *shrug*. Screwed.


adam, there is never a need to apologise to me the 'King of Snipping and Bloody-Mindedness'

I see where you come from and your frustrations. It is human to take out your frustrations and it is also very arguable Labour could have done more - although I don't see it being much more and they tried their best in the election where they almost rescued the situation for us

As I said in an earlier post - I think that the review of Brexit with hindsight will make an interesting reading as it will see what were the really important points - and I think we will be surprised. It may well be that the errors were all made around the design and execution of the refrendum and all that has happened since was actually difficult to prevent


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:45 am 
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I made the mistake of listening to 'World Tonight' on Radio 4, with presenter & guest both hectoring Barry Gardiner.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/91297 ... -Party-BBC (Sorry it's Daily Express, couldn't find it elsewhere)
Learnt 2 things,
i) A reporter said Theresa May wants a 'Bespoked'(sic) solution.
;)
ii) Labour want to be in a Customs Union with the EU.
(though, I think that's similar to what Corbyn said on Andrew Marr show).


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:23 am 
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HindleA wrote:
Y'areet Bonnylad ?

Aye-canny:)
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/stat ... 6579155974


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:39 am 
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adam wrote:
where we are bound by arrangements but without power to influence them, and could make the drive to leave completely and without arrangements even stronger in the longer term,

Yes, I'm not sure why the hard leavers are making a fuss about it now, when a 'vassal state' transition could play into their hands later.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:42 am 
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Bonnylad wrote:
HindleA wrote:
Y'areet Bonnylad ?

Aye-canny:)
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/stat ... 6579155974

As I said, leaving the EU is impossible.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:50 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw

Is this truly Britain – a land that spies on sick and poor people?
Frances Ryan


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:52 am 
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Constance now on the double bass.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:58 am 
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 11:26 am 
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I think it was PfY praising Nicky Morgan the other day? She's nailed it here.


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So Govt won’t publish position paper on services sector and resists publishing economic analysis until they have no choice in case they ‘reveal UK’s hand in negotiations’ but it’s apparently ok to conduct negotiations about rights of EU citizens in public

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 11:31 am 
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I'm waiting for Theresa May, from the fastness of China, to open the envelope marked "Thursday's Announcement".


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 11:32 am 
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Good morfternoon.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 11:50 am 
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Good discussion above.

Of course, part of the problem is that the question of how Labour should approach Brexit is so bound up in internal pro/anti-Corbyn politics.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 12:16 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Good discussion above.

Of course, part of the problem is that the question of how Labour should approach Brexit is so bound up in internal pro/anti-Corbyn politics.



But it isn't a proxy for that. Right from the start one of the central problems with Corbyn (and McDonnel, and Milne, and Fisher, and the Campaign Group) is that they have always been anti-EU.

Where we are going seems clear enough.

1. A transition deal, that is really a standstill, until 2021, where the UK remains in the CU and SM but has no say. We will be out of fisheries and the CAP though, so it is Brexit.

2. Permanent membership of the CU (however it is dressed up). Ireland necessitates it.

3. Leaving the single market. Labour isn't prepared to fight for it, there is no 'bespoke' deal on offer. Both main parties favour ending freedom of movement, and the EU27 won't budge on that. So it is Canada but with a CU (like Turkey).

4. We're all going to be worse off, but especially the poorest. It is the worst self inflicted policy choice the UK has made since .....? Not joining the coal and steel community in 1951?

Apart from trivia (the Charter) the two main parties agree, because of the choices they both accept (eg ending freedom of movement, ensuring that the North of Ireland doesn't break out into violence so we must keep Good Friday) require it.

So, it is all noise and smoke, signifying nothing. There is no 'negotiation', we have to just take what the EU27 offer. There is no difference between the big two parties because they both accept the referendum, both think it necessitates ending freedom of movement, and aren't prepared to argue for what is clearly right.

In UK politics terms this also necessitates two other things.

1. May will go sometime after the Brexit deal is finalised but before the election. She has proven disastrously bad at the skill side of politcis, far worse than anyone expected.

2. The election will be in 2022, after the standstill is over and after the 'final' deal.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 12:43 pm 
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There are problems with Brexit in Whitehall.

Here’s a small tale of government indecision, prevarication and “no deal” neurosis with big implications. 2 qs:

1. Have you heard of the Road Haulage and truckers bill

2. Until you do: Is “no deal” planning **really** happening

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/stat ... 6579155974

Very scary thread for our haulage companies. 75,000 drivers will basically have to scramble over the (predicted) 1200 licences that will be available after brexit.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 12:45 pm 
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1. The best deal for transition that can be obtained......Labour agree, Tories say No

2. No non-EU country is a member of the EU CU so this is a new construct that will need to be agreed. Labour have definitely not ruled this out

3. Again, for the upteenth time, you are not a member of the SM - you are a member of something else that defines access. Either via a bilateral FTA like Canada, EFTA+ bilateral as Switzerland or EFTA and EEA like Norway.

4. Of course we are - thank you Mr Cameron

I don't get you saying there will be no 'bespoke deal' when you then say we have to be in the CU and have full access to the SM - this is bespokeor can you point me to another 3rd country who has one? The most likely scenario will be join EFTA, sign EEA and then organise the link to the CU

Again you have avoided my two main questions

How does a 'pay, no say' scenario of the status quo work in the medium term?
Why does Labour have to announce their position in detail NOW? Your answer above seemed to be because 'we can say, told you, later on'

I don't particularly want Labour arguing for the 'right thing' at the 'wrong time' if it means we inevitably lose. The LD tried that and look where it left them. Remember the 'Overton Window' - Remain is not visible through it as an option and I think that is due to the referendum rhetoric.

People remember two things that are damaging the Remain case now. Firstly, the totally wild and inaccurate acute affects of a Leave vote and also the Reamin side saying that the result was final and would be implemented in the expectation of a win (despite the referendum only being advisory).


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Yes, the last point shouldn't be forgotten. The #FBFE brigade now shouting "but the referendum was ADVISORY!!!" convinces absolutely no one.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 12:55 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Yes, the last point shouldn't be forgotten. The #FBFE brigade now shouting "but the referendum was ADVISORY!!!" convinces absolutely no one.


We're now long past the point where anyone maes that argument. Parliament voted to trigger art 50 without conditions. We're leaving.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:05 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/housing-net ... e-not-good


Tower Hamlets has reduced child poverty – by shipping it elsewhere
Rabina Khan


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Just forget that A50 vote

It was irrelevant as the Tories rejected every single amendment


All you are about is attacking Corbyn by any means possible because he is taking Labour to the left

My default assumption is that Brexit is just another vessel for that. Your post content supports that


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Tory Minister in charge of Data Protection laws launches app that breaks Data Protection laws

The Tory Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, Matt Hancock – the man responsible for overseeing data protection laws in the UK – has just become the first MP to launch their own app. And, in a fitting tribute to the Tories’ incredible incompetence when it comes to all things internet-related, the app almost certainly contravenes the very laws that Hancock is responsible for.

Hancock, who is also the Minister responsible for pushing through a new bill designed to strengthen UK data protection laws, launched his new app today to a chorus of disbelief and ridicule. And now, a Data protection & privacy expert on Twitter has revealed, astonishingly, that Hancock’s app breaks both Apple policy and UK Law.


https://evolvepolitics.com/tory-ministe ... tion-laws/


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Guy Verhofstadt‏Verified account
@guyverhofstadt
Following Following @guyverhofstadt
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Citizens’ rights during the transition are not negotiable. We will not accept that there are two sets of rights for EU citizens. For the transition to work, it must mean a continuation of the existing acquis with no exceptions

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/stat ... 6866287616


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:25 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Yes, the last point shouldn't be forgotten. The #FBFE brigade now shouting "but the referendum was ADVISORY!!!" convinces absolutely no one.


We're now long past the point where anyone makes that argument. Parliament voted to trigger art 50 without conditions. We're leaving.


I still see it used on Twitter regularly.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:29 pm 
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UK exports outside EU fall despite weak pound
Exports of British-made goods to EU increase by £1.3bn, underlining country’s reliance on trade with continental Europe

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... dApp_Tweet


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:34 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Yes, the last point shouldn't be forgotten. The #FBFE brigade now shouting "but the referendum was ADVISORY!!!" convinces absolutely no one.

I got a complete hammering on Twitter (do look) for replying to someone who said it was a "non-binding opinion poll". I said they were "sneering" at millions of voters who had taken this Referendum very very seriously indeed.

:roll:


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:36 pm 
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It should never have happened, but given that it did the fact it had the highest voting participation of modern times can't just be wished away unfortunately.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:45 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
It should never have happened, but given that it did the fact it had the highest voting participation of modern times can't just be wished away unfortunately.

Well exactly.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:46 pm 
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Apropo of nothing other than my culinary experiments...........

3 days ago I discovered that adding some grated ginger, half a teaspoon of crushed cumin seeds and a grated clove of raw garlic to homemade coleslaw gave it a wonderful, fragrant flavour.
Today I've found out that after maturing for 3 days it blows your head off and does strange things to your tongue
Worth a try - but same day eat only!


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:48 pm 
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:lol:

https://skwawkbox.org/2018/02/01/con-ca ... ial-media/

con-campaigner-app-comments-hijacked-by-people-who-actually-get-social-media


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:50 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
It should never have happened, but given that it did the fact it had the highest voting participation of modern times can't just be wished away unfortunately.


and that is something people who are trying to keep us as close to the EU as they can need to remember. It is so conviently forgotten or dismissed. I can tell you that this approach is going down very badly with my family and friends in Wolverhampton - it is seen as being very insulting and dismissive of people's votes

This is the main reason why I think the A50 vote was a non-event, the Tories were never going to vote against it - even those in Remain constituencies.

I referred to the Overton Window above - if we can make enough people really consider that the referendum result was not the final say and that we could consider staying in then that opens more possibilities. It may indeed not be possible before we Leave but it could bring us back into the fold, and allow the political issues I have been so concerned about to become less important


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:54 pm 
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All going well then...

EU rejects Brexit trade deal for UK financial services sector
Brussels negotiators say Europe would benefit from a smaller City of London

https://www.ft.com/content/7f7669a4-067 ... 0ad2d7c5b5


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 1:59 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
Sam Coates Times‏Verified account
@SamCoatesTimes

There are problems with Brexit in Whitehall.

Here’s a small tale of government indecision, prevarication and “no deal” neurosis with big implications. 2 qs:

1. Have you heard of the Road Haulage and truckers bill

2. Until you do: Is “no deal” planning **really** happening

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/stat ... 6579155974

Very scary thread for our haulage companies. 75,000 drivers will basically have to scramble over the (predicted) 1200 licences that will be available after brexit.


Julie Owen Moylan‏
@JulieOwenMoylan

I hate to be a remoaner..but if we did NO DEAL and we only got 1200 truck licences and as we know our planes inc cargo won't be able to fly for a bit..and we import nearly all our food.
How do we eat? All round the Rees Moggs for dinner eh?

https://twitter.com/JulieOwenMoylan/sta ... 9165900800


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 2:01 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
It should never have happened, but given that it did the fact it had the highest voting participation of modern times can't just be wished away unfortunately.


Agree. I think softest of soft Brexit is best. I'd back it sooner rather than later and take the hil, becaus point by point opposition can come across as devious Brexit blocking. The advantage is once you've announced your position, you can say "We answered Ireland/trade/students/whatever already", and genuinely move on and talk about health, transport, etc. Plus fire back at the Tories "we can pay for it, you can't".


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 2:03 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
My particular job can't be automated.Certainly an eye opener to me as per what jobs/tasks existed,the more skilled/mechanical/better paid are more under threat.
I understand what you mean
I'll need another cup of tea before attempting further comment


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 2:03 pm 
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good-afternoon, everyone


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
It should never have happened, but given that it did the fact it had the highest voting participation of modern times can't just be wished away unfortunately.


Agree. I think softest of soft Brexit is best. I'd back it sooner rather than later and take the hil, becaus point by point opposition can come across as devious Brexit blocking. The advantage is once you've announced your position, you can say "We answered Ireland/trade/students/whatever already", and genuinely move on and talk about health, transport, etc. Plus fire back at the Tories "we can pay for it, you can't".


I still do not see any advantage to announcing the position now - there is a lull in negotiations and it will make Labour the focus - and you dismiss the hit but it could be extremely damaging to them at the moment for the reasons I explained in previous posts. I think the risk is too high for the (not fully explained) benefits. The current labour approach leads to some moaning and complaining but there is very little substanttive to really attack on - a success in my view

The Tories are in charge of this negotiation and it is up to them to agree a position - they have still not set out what they want. Labour should wait for that before setting out their position with more clarity

The assumption I am making is that the Tories cannot really coalesce around a narrative without damaging themselves horribly

The negotiations will restart in March - waiting until then would be sensible in my view

PS I thought Labour were already talking about health, transport etc......the criticism from many is that they are not talking ennough about Brexit


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