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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Labour can talk about health but they can't pay for it. Solve Brexit, they can.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 3:16 pm 
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No words minced here...

FDA union‏
@FDA_union

“To stand at the despatch box and refuse to challenge a half-baked conspiracy theory about the civil service is the height of irresponsibility from a serving minister": @FDAGenSec's full response to Minister Steve Baker -

https://twitter.com/FDA_union/status/959053502533292032


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 3:23 pm 
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STATEMENT REGARDING COMMENTS BY JACOB REES-MOGG AND STEVE BAKER IN HOUSE OF COMMONS

http://www.cer.eu/in-the-press/statemen ... se-commons


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 3:46 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Labour can talk about health but they can't pay for it. Solve Brexit, they can.


That does still not answer the question why they have to define everything now?

Do you think the argument have made will make any difference and offset the tirade against them?

It is not for Labour to solve Brexit....that is for the Government.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Labour can talk about health but they can't pay for it. Solve Brexit, they can.
Yes, Brexit will have a major impact on the UK's finances.
Please know I'm not asking you personally for a comprehensive education in macroeconomics but I think it's important we all understand terms and fiscal realities. How does the current UK government's budget function? I know it's different from the way countries, regions within the UK and household budgets function. Money, resources, spending and saving in sovereign currency nations aren't at all clear to me.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:16 pm 
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Commit now, day "told you so" at leisure. And be able to say you can afford nice stuff. Be the party of business.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Citizen, all I'm meaning really is you can afford more stuff with no Hard Brexit. Nothing more profound.

Good bit of personality politics for Corbyn too. When will weak May take on Rees Mogg etc!


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Commit now, day "told you so" at leisure. And be able to say you can afford nice stuff. Be the party of business.


I don't think that is a particularly strong argument but it is your view and that is fine

It is definitely not strong enough to justify the consistent demands that we hear that it must be NOW

Do you think the EEA/CU implications are appreciated by everyone?

And I doubt business will give him any credit either


Last edited by howsillyofme1 on Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
Citizen, all I'm meaning really is you can afford more stuff with no Hard Brexit. Nothing more profound.

Good bit of personality politics for Corbyn too. When will weak May take on Rees Mogg etc!
I know that, no worries
It's just something that's been on my mind, that's all


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:24 pm 
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I see that DFFM Liam Fox's "post-geography" has made a welcome return.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Quote:
16:33
No 10 stands by Steve Baker over his Treasury civil servants comments (Politics Live, Guardian)


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:42 pm 
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The CBI will agree with Corbyn on this, if nothing else. He's got the best of both worlds there. Still got his populist appeal (which I never believed he had till the election) and can quote his pro-business EU policy.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:49 pm 
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AngryAsWell wrote:
All going well then...

EU rejects Brexit trade deal for UK financial services sector
Brussels negotiators say Europe would benefit from a smaller City of London

https://www.ft.com/content/7f7669a4-067 ... 0ad2d7c5b5

Tbh I think the UK would benefit from a smaller City as well, the financial services industry has been distorting our economy away from the north/west and manufacturing for decades. I think it harks back to the aristocracy's disdain for 'trade'.
I never imagined it being forced on us this way though, it will be very bad in the short term.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 4:57 pm 
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It'll be as in the long term too. We're not replacing that tax revenue ever.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 5:11 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Quote:
16:33
No 10 stands by Steve Baker over his Treasury civil servants comments (Politics Live, Guardian)


Pretty weak support really. "No reason to doubt" etc.

A few people are right now providing reason to doubt, including another Tory MP, Antoinette Sandbach. Interesting times for Baker.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 5:14 pm 
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Tubby

My main argument is about timing not the substance - I hope the announcement comes but at the moment it is far too problematic

Corbyn: We are staying in the CU/SM
Press: How will we do that?
Corbyn: We will join EFTA then become part of the EEA and negotiate the link to the EU CU
Press: Isn't that pretty much the same as now?
Corbyn: Ermmmmm.....yes
Press: How much will it cost us to do that?
Corbyn: Don't know yet - will need to negotiate that
Press: Will we have a say in the rule-making?
Corbyn: Don't know yet - will need to negotiate
Press: EU has said it will cost us and we will not have a say
Corbyn: Ermmmm....
Press: So we are in effect in the EU mechanisms, we will pay possibly more than now and we have no say?
Corbyn: Ermmmmm....basically yes but we hope to negotiate
Press: So wouldn't it be better to stay in then?
Corbyn: Probably
Press: What about the referendum result which voted to Leave? etc., etc., etc.,

It is a no-win situation unless you have full and credible answers to those questions - and at a time when nothing else substance is going on on and at a time when the Tories are falling apart Labour suddenly come and gift them a way out by essentially saying we need to stay in

And the benefit is we can say 'we told you so' at some indeterminate point in the future and that the CBI will be please

Pardon me, if I think that is not sufficient to off-set the damage likely to be done

Let us wait until the Tories collapse in the negotiations and we have a strong narrative to justify a change in direction

Labour have already given a strong commitment to maintain the status quo for the transition - no prevarication like the Tories. That brings them credibility with the EU and shows the direction of travel.......I don't think we can ask for more at the moment without creating a lot of noise as indicated above


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 5:22 pm 
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I think there is a narrative for Labour here. Agree stuff now we'll have to agree anyway, then we can fight harder for benefits at the edges- deals to be done on Euratom and other programmes, on paying in to the budget etc. Better than a panic the week before and concede everything.

I think it has a certain "call a spade a spade" appeal too. Again something Corbyn made work for him in the election. May trying to argue some renamed Customs Union isn't a customs union will look bad.

I think it nice exploits Tory splits too.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 5:34 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I think there is a narrative for Labour here. Agree stuff now we'll have to agree anyway, then we can fight harder for benefits at the edges- deals to be done on Euratom and other programmes, on paying in to the budget etc. Better than a panic the week before and concede everything.

I think it has a certain "call a spade a spade" appeal too. Again something Corbyn made work for him in the election. May trying to argue some renamed Customs Union isn't a customs union will look bad.

I think it nice exploits Tory splits too.



Sorry Tubby but that doesn't provide an answer to any of my concerns

Labour's narrative has been pretty much constant that they want a really close relationship with the EU and to continue in as many of the cooperative bodies as possible. The problem people have is that they have been very legally pedantic about the SM especially - less so on the CU which they seem to be pretty close to committing to.

Also the transition period deal indicates a strong commitment that business have been begging the Tories for - haven't seen the CBI showering them with much credit on that though despite their predicted delight about it

The establishment are petrified of Corbyn winning (even more so than they were Miliband) as they have someone who is committed to over-turning at least part of the free market Chicago school economic consensus we have seen since the 80s - that far outweighs Brexit concerns I imagine. He does not believe that free market liberalisation is the answer to everything and there are a lot of people who stand to lose money because of that

Your faith in the fairness of our press and politicians is touching but after what I saw they did to Brown, Miliband and now Corbyn for having the temerity to put forward even mildly left-wing ideas makes me very reticent to go out on a limb

Corbyn cannot credibly sell Remain at the moment - not like he could the NHS etc. He needs to have more substantive evidence of the the likely outcome of the negotiations which haven't even started yet - all we have is a declaration of intent and no detail on the how or any legal framework

Again I ask - why is it so critical it happens now and not when we have something concrete from the negotiations? All I have seen is very weak indeed. Where do you think my made-up conversation above is off-track?


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 6:08 pm 
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I think what I've said is full of positive reasons to do it now. It's straight talking, economically responsible, solves Ireland, Givraltar and will get a better deal. Drift and get pushed into it, and that's far weaker. Make a virtue of it.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 6:14 pm 
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Both of you have a good argument here, that's what makes deciding on the best Brexit strategy so difficult for Labour!


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I think what I've said is full of positive reasons to do it now. It's straight talking, economically responsible, solves Ireland, Givraltar and will get a better deal. Drift and get pushed into it, and that's far weaker. Make a virtue of it.


Not really....sorry.

Teresa May wouldn't be able to believe her luck if Labour came out solidly for something that would mean us paying in money and being subject to all regulations without having a say in the rules

My view would be that it would turn out to be as significant a political error as May calling the GE....and how many people thought that was a bad move from her when she did it?

You seem to believe that Jeremy Corbyn gets given the benefit of the doubt by the media

Straight-talking: Not sure that this would make any difference on Brexit - it doesn't have credibility like NHS does
Economically responsible: Factually right but a lot of people don't believe the forecasts anyway thanks to Osborne
Ireland: Important but not on most people's radar apart from political nerds
Gibralter: as above x10

The final point might come to pass at some time in the future but not now


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 6:33 pm 
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To draw it to a close, I think there are some arguments for Labour coming out for EEA/CU now and if people think that then fine

They are not, however, compelling reasons that make you think.....bloody hell, why did I not think of that.......and the consequences of getting it wrong far outweigh the benefits still in my view

What those arguments also do not do is explain the almost hysterical view from some of the FBPE crowd who seem to think that it is absolutely imperative

There are two important events coming up.....the start of the serious negotiations for the EU transition and withdrawal in March and the local elections in May

The former will actually start to see the details emerge....it really has been a phoney war up until now. The latter are very important for May, and also Corbyn, although to a lesser extent

I am just a little bit suspicious that some of the pressure and criticism from the right is trying to weaken the Labour performance in those elections and thus allow more criticism of Corbyn - that, however, may be too cynical


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 6:57 pm 
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howsillyofme1 wrote:
I am just a little bit suspicious that some of the pressure and criticism from the right is trying to weaken the Labour performance in those elections and thus allow more criticism of Corbyn - that, however, may be too cynical


That may be a motivation for a few ultras.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Quote:
UK officials met Capita bosses to discuss its financial problems
Minister says outsourcing firm is being monitored and is in stronger position than Carillion


"...the Cabinet Office minister Oliver Dowden [Tory MP Hertsmere], dismissed criticism from Labour and defended the outsourcing model, where government services are farmed out to private companies.

“We do not believe that Capita is in any way in a comparable position to Carillion,” said Dowden, in response to an urgent question from Reeves.

He was speaking as government documents revealed that Capita is among the companies to have won a contract to redesign the House of Commons and House of Lords.

Dowden pointed to drastic measures announced by Capita to repair its finances, adding that the department was keeping a close eye on a company that provides public services such as the electronic tagging of prisoners and collection of the BBC licence fee."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... l-problems
I'm not reassured


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 7:03 pm 
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"...Capita is among the companies to have won a contract to redesign the House of Commons and House of Lords."


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 8:09 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Any news from China? (I've no idea what the time is over at Beijing.)


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:10 pm 
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Eight hours ahead.


https://time.is/Beijing


Last edited by HindleA on Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:12 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tion-value


https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... urt-ruling


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:16 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/educ ... or-schools


Education Minister unveils new support for schools
Advice for schools on how to get the best value for money when buying support from businesses.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:21 pm 
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http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2018/02/ ... ent-migran

Home Office faces legal challenges over 'right to rent' migrant policy


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:28 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... leadership

Amanda Spielman's speech at the Church of England Foundation for Education Leadership


Last edited by HindleA on Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Irish court refuses man's extradition because of Brexit
Supreme court judges rule UK will have left EU by the end of the company director’s sentence

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... are_btn_tw


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:30 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Both of you have a good argument here, that's what makes deciding on the best Brexit strategy so difficult for Labour!



Notice that you're calculating it all in terms of what is best for your political side.

Not is what is, you know, right and wrong.

Politics as sport.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Tubby Isaacs wrote:
I think what I've said is full of positive reasons to do it now. It's straight talking, economically responsible, solves Ireland, Givraltar and will get a better deal. Drift and get pushed into it, and that's far weaker. Make a virtue of it.



I think we'll get a Labour commitment to permanent customs union soon. There is no viable alternative, absent magic undiscovered technology at the Irish border. Labour has fewer barriers to facing reality than do the Tories (though the leadership is a big problem.)


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:37 pm 
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http://grammarist.com/usage/supercilious/


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:37 pm 
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Steve Baker MP
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@SteveBakerHW

1/3 This morning in Parliament, I answered a question based on my honest recollection of a conversation. As I said, I considered what I had understood to be implausible, because of the impartiality of the civil service.
2/3 The audio of that conversation is now available and I am glad the record stands corrected. In the context of that audio, I accept that I should have corrected the premise of the question.
3/3 I will apologise to Charles Grant, who is an honest and trustworthy man. As I have put on record many times, I have the highest regard for our hard working civil servants. I will clarify my remarks to the House.

https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status ... 9294182401


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:48 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/01/labour-plans-landowners-sell-state-fraction-value

Subheaded - Exclusive: party proposes raid on private land to cut cost of building new council houses

Compare and contrast the language used, from this one article
Quote:
The proposal has been drawn up by John Healey, the shadow housing secretary, and would see a Jeremy Corbyn-led government change the law so landowners would have to sell sites to the state at knockdown prices.

Quote:
A similar policy has been advocated by some leading Conservatives, including the former planning minister Nick Boles. In a sign of growing political consensus, he said the huge windfalls gained by some landowners were inequitable and that the current system of capturing the uplift in land value through section 106 agreements was “incredibly inefficient”, because private developers could afford to outwit planners with expensive lawyers and consultants.

“There will be mass opposition, but there aren’t that many landowners and they are not a huge voting block,” Boles said. “Not all Conservatives would naturally feel comfortable with this but I have been struck by the positive reaction.”

Speaking earlier this week Javid indicated he would like to change the system. He said: “I think it’s right that the state takes a portion of that uplift to support local infrastructure and development.”

Tories are allowed their own words. Labour are proposing a 'raid' at 'knock-down prices', and name check of JC seems to be obligatory.

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Sam Coates Times‏Verified account
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Follow Follow @SamCoatesTimes
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Oh, and a quick reminder from my excellent colleague @GraemePaton that the haulier bill is not the only thing going wrong with the DfT’s post Brexit planning

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/stat ... 1117923328

Posted main thread earlier, but this bit is worth a stand alone read, 15 million wasted on non viable lorry park, 5 million rent on equally non-viable disused airport that's too far away to be of use.
I think I know where the magic money tree is....
(Oh and still no solution to which of the 75,000 truck drivers get the 1200 licences.)


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:57 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Both of you have a good argument here, that's what makes deciding on the best Brexit strategy so difficult for Labour!



Notice that you're calculating it all in terms of what is best for your political side.

Not is what is, you know, right and wrong.

Politics as sport.


No, in order to get the type of Government we need to manage this or any other of the myriad of problems we need Labour to win; damaging the party will not let that happen. I could advocate the party taking some damage if there was chance of it working. I have set out my views on why it will not work in my opinion and so I am not going to support it just so someone like you is kept happy

Your focus is in pushing for policies and decisions that will damage the party - not surprisingly as you are an advocate of extreme right wing neoliberalism and are, in my opinion, a Tory shill


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 9:59 pm 
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SpinningHugo wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Both of you have a good argument here, that's what makes deciding on the best Brexit strategy so difficult for Labour!



Notice that you're calculating it all in terms of what is best for your political side.

Not is what is, you know, right and wrong.

Politics as sport.

:dance:


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:00 pm 
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Executing UK Dept‏
@DExUKgov

We would like to deny in the strongest possible terms rumours of total chaos in the department.

Really, we would.

If we could.

:lol!:


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:06 pm 
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File this under "dimwitted Tories failing to understand the law"

https://twitter.com/Tory_Workers/status ... 6349361153

The board clearly says "in local elections".

Electoral Commission rules say...

https://www.yourvotematters.co.uk/can-i-vote/students

Quote:
CAN I VOTE TWICE – AT HOME AND AT UNIVERSITY?
If your home and university addresses are in two different local authority areas, you can vote in local elections in both.

However, even if you are registered in two areas – at home and at university – you can only vote in one at a general election.

It is a criminal offence to vote twice in a UK general election.


:roll:

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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:29 pm 
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NB not just University,I was doubly registered for a time under different circumstance."each under own merits".


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:30 pm 
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Easier now with my six postal votes.


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:31 pm 
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Dimi Reider‏Verified account
@reider

American man wins a million dollars. His first priority is to go see a doctor, because he hasn't been able to afford one in a while. Doctor tells he him he has Stage 4 cancer. Man dies. America, you are a weird and broken place.

https://twitter.com/reider/status/958841492906434561


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:36 pm 
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Charles Grant‏
@CER_Grant

More Charles Grant Retweeted Chris Leslie
Yes I am clear, and the recording has confirmed what I say I said. My problem is with @Jacob_Rees_Mogg's inaccurate question, more than with @SteveBakerHW's response, which I found incomprehensible.....@CER_EU

https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/959140414241558530

Tory's are ripping into each other like rats in a sack. How long can May hold it together ?


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:37 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -of-living


School’s creative subjects taught me the art of living
Rhiannon Lucy Cosslett


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:40 pm 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-no ... e-42907421


Desborough Tory councillors' mass 'bullying' resignation


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PostPosted: Thu 01 Feb, 2018 10:44 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... alth-units


Research and analysis

Education in inpatient mental health units


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