Monday 5th February 2018
Posted: Mon 05 Feb, 2018 7:03 am
Morning.
Somehow missed it snowing.
Currently 0 C
Somehow missed it snowing.
Currently 0 C
In what way would that help me determine the clarity of the sky?HindleA wrote:Put the bloody light on then.
Well exactly.SpinningHugo wrote:What utter nonsense this attempt to distinguish between "a" customs union and "the" customs union is. It wouldn't impress a small child.
Hmm, maybe you are transitioning to being a rabbit.HindleA wrote:Right,time for bed.Enjoy your day(s)
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... toms-union
cabinet-united-brexit-trade-strategy-amber-rudd-theresa-may-customs-union
Union, partnership, arrangement?
Let's call the whole thing off!
That sounds pretty flexible to me, was there more?“It is not our policy to be in the customs union. It is not our policy to be in a customs union.”
SpinningHugo wrote:What utter nonsense this attempt to distinguish between "a" customs union and "the" customs union is. It wouldn't impress a small child.
But the government are using it nonsensically, as part of the 'we can have just the relationship we have now but without the obligations or the oversight' idea.howsillyofme1 wrote:SpinningHugo wrote:What utter nonsense this attempt to distinguish between "a" customs union and "the" customs union is. It wouldn't impress a small child.
Why is it nonsense?
You do know there is a difference between the definite and indefinite articles don't you?
Being a member of the EU Customs Union is different to being in a customs union with the EU (such as Turkey is)
It is all very semantic but it is important in these types of discussion where people are trying to avoid being too specific for a particular reason. You can criticise people for sitting on the fence and not being specific but that is different from criticising the use of 'a' and 'the'
The issue is people make losts of asssumptions on what customs union and single market means and so interchange a lot. The definite article should only be used where all parties in the discussion know what it is referring to - if someone says 'the customs union' to me, it means the one that we are currently in as part of the membership of the EU; if they say 'a customs union' that means something that has not been fully defined yet.
As I say very semantic but it suits the person saying it
Adamadam wrote:But the government are using it nonsensically, as part of the 'we can have just the relationship we have now but without the obligations or the oversight' idea.howsillyofme1 wrote:SpinningHugo wrote:What utter nonsense this attempt to distinguish between "a" customs union and "the" customs union is. It wouldn't impress a small child.
Why is it nonsense?
You do know there is a difference between the definite and indefinite articles don't you?
Being a member of the EU Customs Union is different to being in a customs union with the EU (such as Turkey is)
It is all very semantic but it is important in these types of discussion where people are trying to avoid being too specific for a particular reason. You can criticise people for sitting on the fence and not being specific but that is different from criticising the use of 'a' and 'the'
The issue is people make losts of asssumptions on what customs union and single market means and so interchange a lot. The definite article should only be used where all parties in the discussion know what it is referring to - if someone says 'the customs union' to me, it means the one that we are currently in as part of the membership of the EU; if they say 'a customs union' that means something that has not been fully defined yet.
As I say very semantic but it suits the person saying it
It is nonsensical whoever uses it. The substantive matter is whether we can enter into independent trade deals with therd party countries (ie whether Foxadam wrote: But the government are using it nonsensically, as part of the 'we can have just the relationship we have now but without the obligations or the oversight' idea.
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
It is sematic to argue between 'a' and 'the' I agree but there is a clear difference and in this case I understand why. Will they be identical - how do you know that? I don't agree that this is fore-ordained. The outcome will be to allow goods to pass between the UK and Ireland but whether that will be identical to the EU customs union or be a customs union that allows the sameSpinningHugo wrote:It is nonsensical whoever uses it. The substantive matter is whether we can enter into independent trade deals with therd party countries (ie whether Foxadam wrote: But the government are using it nonsensically, as part of the 'we can have just the relationship we have now but without the obligations or the oversight' idea.
s department is meaningful).
Trying to distinguish between "a" and "the" is the same laughable linguistic pedantry, worthy of nothing but mockery, as those who insist we cannot be members of the single market.
As we've already agreed the Irish border issue, we'll be staying in the customs union (or if idiots prefer, within a customs union materially identical). Labour should just commit to it now, as it is already determined.
and that is the important point - if they ruled out 'the customs union' that leaves some wriggle room - saying no customs union at all takes it to a new levelAngryAsWell wrote:For clarity, John Pienaar on R5 has confirmed (if anything can be regarded as "confirmed" in this day and age) that number 10 has ruled out ANY kind of CU.
and to me - the argument over 'a' and 'the' becomes completely irrelevent - although there is this new concept of an 'arrangement'AngryAsWell wrote:"We will not be staying in any CU in any way shape or form" is what the government has announced.
That looks faily black and white to me.
But instead they want close, frictionless alignment or a 'customs partnership' which seems vaguelyAngryAsWell wrote:"We will not be staying in any CU in any way shape or form" is what the government has announced.
That looks faily black and white to me.
tinybgoat wrote:But instead they want close, frictionless alignment or a 'customs partnership' which seems vaguelyAngryAsWell wrote:"We will not be staying in any CU in any way shape or form" is what the government has announced.
That looks faily black and white to me.
similar, (although woolly, fuzzy & grey)
Indeed being in Government is about making choices, and that is the downside of being in powerSpinningHugo wrote:Today does nicely illustrate the difference between being in government and not.
The current government position makes no sense. But that cannot hold. These cake and eat it policies (a custms union arrangement that has no hard border in Ireland is materially identical to the customs union but is incompatible with the third party trade deals the Brexiteers think is the upside of Brexit).
The opposition can fudge this with bland nonsense about a "jobs first Brexit" but being in governmenr means making choices.
There is also a major problem with Parliamentary demcracy here. There is no majority that gives a Parliamentary majority within either the Tory or Labour parties for any particular approach to Brexit. There is a majority across them (basically for a soft SM and CU Brexit) but that (probably large) majority is not in charge of either of those parties. So the majority in Parliament (and probably in the country) cannot be represented in government regardless of what happens.
Rees-Mogg v Corbyn here we come. What madness.
That should be an inevitability - we shall see.AngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
Something like that needs to happen, I agree. The electorate need something to shock them into actionAngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
If you think that would save us you're more optimistic than I am, there appears to be no limit to the economic damage the tory hard/no-deal brexit supporters will accept.AngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
We and our overseas investors are being stabbed in the back by the unreasonable attitude of the unreasonable EU who for some reason can't see the sense in allowing our perfectly effective current business practices to continue after we leave the the EU.gilsey wrote:If you think that would save us you're more optimistic than I am, there appears to be no limit to the economic damage the tory hard/no-deal brexit supporters will accept.AngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
Would Scotland, Wales, London... and so on, accept a situation where Northern Ireland had a better trading relationship with the rest of the EU than they did?tinybgoat wrote:Ultimately is it having to rely on the DUP that's preventing the Tories having a potentially workable solution? if it were acceptable to have a customs border between the rest of the UK and N.Ireland, does anyone think the Government's plans (i.e. eu rules for goods destined for eu, separate trade deals for uk only) would be achievable? Also how would a similar scenario work with Labour, would they be happy on a customs border with N.Ireland?
To turn that on it's head, it isn't ok to have economic armageddon just because NI gets it too.adam wrote:Would Scotland, Wales, London... and so on, accept a situation where Northern Ireland had a better trading relationship with the rest of the EU than they did?tinybgoat wrote:Ultimately is it having to rely on the DUP that's preventing the Tories having a potentially workable solution? if it were acceptable to have a customs border between the rest of the UK and N.Ireland, does anyone think the Government's plans (i.e. eu rules for goods destined for eu, separate trade deals for uk only) would be achievable? Also how would a similar scenario work with Labour, would they be happy on a customs border with N.Ireland?
I'm probably misunderstanding it, but theory would be that we'd have close to 'as is' trading with eu, but separate deals possible for other nations, the border with n.ireland would be to keep non-eu goods out of the island of Ireland (and, so the EU). So arguably it would be N.Ireland who'd lose out on the extra World trade, but would get to keep an open border with Ireland.adam wrote:Would Scotland, Wales, London... and so on, accept a situation where Northern Ireland had a better trading relationship with the rest of the EU than they did?tinybgoat wrote:Ultimately is it having to rely on the DUP that's preventing the Tories having a potentially workable solution? if it were acceptable to have a customs border between the rest of the UK and N.Ireland, does anyone think the Government's plans (i.e. eu rules for goods destined for eu, separate trade deals for uk only) would be achievable? Also how would a similar scenario work with Labour, would they be happy on a customs border with N.Ireland?
Patrick McVeighAngryAsWell wrote:Will Hutton
@williamnhutton
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Average wait at French ports for non-EU lorries is 7 minutes. That implies 50 mile queues on M 2/20. Parallel crisis at Irish border. House of Commons will not/cannot agree deal with no customs union. May has saved her job for a few more weeks but killed Brexit this morning.
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Interesting viewpoint...
Damn, We'll just have to postpone Brexit until a time when our knowledge of Physics is suitably advanced.gilsey wrote:Patrick McVeighAngryAsWell wrote:Will Hutton
@williamnhutton
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Average wait at French ports for non-EU lorries is 7 minutes. That implies 50 mile queues on M 2/20. Parallel crisis at Irish border. House of Commons will not/cannot agree deal with no customs union. May has saved her job for a few more weeks but killed Brexit this morning.
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Interesting viewpoint...
@PMCV
2h2 hours ago
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Replying to @williamnhutton
Apparently Honda UK requires 350 lorries a day to get through Dover - will Honda spell this impossibility out? Or is it simply too risky to be the first car assembler to admit this law of physics?
To a hard core, anything bad that happens with Brexit will be the fault of somebody else.gilsey wrote:If you think that would save us you're more optimistic than I am, there appears to be no limit to the economic damage the tory hard/no-deal brexit supporters will accept.AngryAsWell wrote:The only thing that could save us now is Nissan & Toyota declaring that as their "just in time" manufacturing model will not work outside of the CU, that they will be pulling out of the UK.
Seems to me the whole country needs a hard slap!
[youtube]l9zcLAUp5E0[/youtube]HindleA wrote:Morning.
Somehow missed it snowing.
Currently 0 C
Just the usual, then.....adam wrote:Apparently the government are leaning towards a customs agreement, not a custom's union. Although it may involve technology that doesn't yet exist.