Monday 26th February 2018

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refitman
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Monday 26th February 2018

Post by refitman »

Morning all.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Good morning

Listening to the Barry Gardiner on Sky

Managed what could have been a tricky interview for him fairly well - as I expected the focus is now on details (which is ridiculous seeing the Tories are in Government and actually negotiating. Shame we see less focus on the actual Government)

What is clear is that the interviewer does not understand the subject at all and the relationship between the different aspects of the EU internal market

Surely, it shouldn't take long for them to do a bit of revision - it is not easy for an interviewee when the interviewer asks bad or irrelevant questions
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gove ... ext-winter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government introduces new legislation to cap poor value energy tariffs in time for next winter
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... f-cap-bill" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... -suppliers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by HindleA »

My tropical fish duties are over farewell to Mary,Mungo and Midge,I'm glad you survived.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by HindleA »

All showing immense relief.(Non verbal fish communication)
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by HindleA »

@ohso I see it as playing right into Government's hands,I'm afraid.There's a reason why some on the Right are in favour.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

I found this to be quite clear and objective on customs unions, the Irish border and free trade, from the Institute for Government.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... toms-union" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I found this to be quite clear and objective on customs unions, the Irish border and free trade, from the Institute for Government.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... toms-union" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks Paul....more authoritative than my attempts

I think the most interesting part is the bit on the hard border and I think this is the next point that will need to be resolved

I have real problems with the Labour remainers who seem not to see that to achieve a good outcome, a credible and careful roadmap has to be followed

I can see what Labour are playing at, looking at my own experience of change management

Define the vision (six tests and manifesto)
Tone (Labour have always been far politer about the EU and less aggressive)
EU residents (this was set out very early)
Transition (commitment to status quo)
Custom's union (we will have one with the EU)

The next steps will have to include the single market etc but it is going to take time and preparation for that as it will touch on the immigration question. This will also put the sovereignty question to the fore and this is where the real backlash could come with Leavers

If the Brexiteers were savvy I think they would give up CU and put Fox out of a job. They would concentrate on the things that actually matter to Leave voters

The other points worth making are that the Tories have not set out anything in quite so much detail as the opposition - look at all those steps above and tell me where the government has an agreed starting position.

The second is that those who are no crying for a commitment on the SM should be quiet - now is not the time, although it will come
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Morning all.

A brief flurry of snow here this morning and settling but it's stopped now.

Edit - spoke too soon - just casually looked out of the window and it's snowing hard again.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... exit-trump" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the elite ever cared about the have-nots, that didn’t last long - John Harris
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by frog222 »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... exit-trump

If the elite ever cared about the have-nots, that didn’t last long - John Harris
I still recc this one he mentions on the 'madness of crowds' by Roger Cohen --

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/20/opin ... ulism.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

John Harris seems to be rather ignoring the existence of the historical recurring phenomenon of the ‘madness of crowds’ to make his accurate point that whole regions have been 90% neglected in the last 40 years of economic growth and improved living standards for … many .

Steven Pinker ? Oh dear :-)
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by adam »

What kind of parliamentary vote are we talking about when we talk about the possibility of parliament voting in favour of continuance in a customs union? Is it the kind of vote that is the house making a declaration but which the government can chose to ignore? I wouldn't be surprised.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by gilsey »

In 20 years time all this Brexit nonsense might look like dancing on the top of a pin.
https://mashable.com/2018/02/22/north-p ... ZZj1vHZOq8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Arctic sea ice is at its lowest observed level since the satellite era began in 1979. The magnitude and pace of the sea ice decline observed during the 21st century, along with the warming of the ocean surface throughout the region, has been shown to be unprecedented in the last 1,500 years.

In the Bering Sea in particular, sea ice has been at record low levels for much of the fall and winter. As if spooked by a ghost, much of the ice that had been covering the region vanished during February, a time when it would normally be at its peak extent and thickness.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by HindleA »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Green.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Radical plans to make millions of workers aged 40 and over pay hundreds of pounds extra in tax every year to fund the growing number of people who will live to 100 have been put forward by ex-Deputy Prime Minister Damian Green.

Mr Green says the move, bound to be dubbed 'Dementia Tax 2', is the only way to ensure that the very elderly who need full-time care can live – and die – in dignity.

He hopes to launch a campaign to win support for the latest attempt to tackle what experts have called the 'social care time bomb"

"only way"
Last edited by HindleA on Mon 26 Feb, 2018 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by gilsey »

On the other hand, some good news from across the pond. Got to start somewhere.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Seems to be a decent speech from Jez, this.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://labour.org.uk/press/jeremy-corb ... in-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Not sure why he's doing this though...
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Corbyn quite specific there. Says manifesto commitment to nationalise water, mail and train operating companies would go against state aid.

He;s wrong. EU rules say you can nationalise what you want. Q is competition in provision. But I'm not sure about that point on RBS - will check out if it stands up.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

The thing someone like Dunt doesn't seem to get is that Corbyn doesn't want to say anything about the single market because he is not ready to get involved in the shitstorm that will follow it - allowing the Tories to get away with even more

The thing is with questions around this area is often that no-one is completely right about it and both can be correct depending on the context and point of reference of the speaker

Labour has gone further than the Government - can''t we just accept that for today and wait until what May comes back with on Friday, rather than immediately start undermining the party leadership again
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

I have just watched that speech and I was struck how conciliatory it was - far more pro-EU than anti and looking for convergence not divergence

Do not be surprised if you see Labour advocating even more as time progresses......
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by gilsey »

I think Labour have to be careful about showing enthusiasm for, say, Norway+CU. Though it seems a logical step, once you go that way there's a big 'vassal state' problem as hsom says, and to me it's difficult to get from there to remain.
The (very narrow) way to remain is via the tories deal, or no-deal, and Labout needs to avoid committing itself to BINO in case public opinion moves dramatically against any brexit.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

howsillyofme1 wrote:The thing someone like Dunt doesn't seem to get is that Corbyn doesn't want to say anything about the single market because he is not ready to get involved in the shitstorm that will follow it - allowing the Tories to get away with even more

The thing is with questions around this area is often that no-one is completely right about it and both can be correct depending on the context and point of reference of the speaker

Labour has gone further than the Government - can''t we just accept that for today and wait until what May comes back with on Friday, rather than immediately start undermining the party leadership again
Well we could accept it for today but he is wrong on nationalising industries.

Mind you - right wingers can hardly point this out since they've been chuntering on about how the EU prevents this too!
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

I think we have to accept any movement by Labour was going to cause some issues

Those on the remain side of the party saying it is not enough and the leavers saying it is betrayal

I can see why Labour can be accused of the 'cake and eat it' approach but if they went to the EEA/CU then it would be 'vassal state' - at the moment 'cake and eat it' is probably the preferable one as they are moving in the right direction.

The simple truth is all options have their negatives.

I just wish they could be better prepared for the questions that will be asked - would definitely have Starmer taking all the questions on this as he understands it all
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

howsillyofme1 wrote: The simple truth is all options have their negatives.
Yes, the only one that doesn't is remaining...at some point it'd be nice if the sensible wings of all parties were to say to the British people "Look, there's no easy way to say this but what you've done by voting to leave is to send us up shit creek with a very small paddle..."
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Good-afternoon, everyone
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

RogerOThornhill wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: The simple truth is all options have their negatives.
Yes, the only one that doesn't is remaining...at some point it'd be nice if the sensible wings of all parties were to say to the British people "Look, there's no easy way to say this but what you've done by voting to leave is to send us up shit creek with a very small paddle..."

I agree....it is going to take a little while yet but if Labour start moving towards an EEA option too then it is the only way

I thought Corbyn's comments today were the most pro-EU I have heard and he went out of his way to hold out the olive branch

Of course he would go into negotiations with some attempts for exemptions/special treatment but actually thy are not that demanding and the EU could say that you could do this anyway or may be moving in the same direction themselves.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Journalists getting pissy because some "ordinary people" got to ask questions, their self regard is staggering considering how collectively dismal the profession is.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by gilsey »

DUP accuses Corbyn of 'cheap political opportunism' over Brexit
Sammy Wilson, the DUP’s Brexit spokesman, has accused Jeremy Corbyn of “cheap political opportunism”. In a statement he said:

It is clear that Jeremy Corbyn’s speech today is driven by cheap political opportunism, completely overturns previous promises made by the Labour Party during the last general election that it was opposed to membership of the customs union and is a blatant attempt to bring down the government rather than safeguard the interests of the UK or workers in industries across the United Kingdom who would benefit from the United Kingdom’s freedom to make its own trade deals outside a customs union.
It would be hard to overstate how much I've come to dislike the DUP.
They're using their clout with May to wreck power-sharing at Stormont and to try to achieve their utterly nonsensical hard-brexit-with-no-hard-border.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by gilsey »

That's leaving aside their neanderthal views on abortion, etc.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by citizenJA »

I've got to out
I'll be back soon
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PorFavor »

citizenJA wrote:I've got to out
I'll be back soon
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

citizenJA wrote:I've got to out
I'll be back soon

Me too - school stuff...
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

gilsey wrote:I think Labour have to be careful about showing enthusiasm for, say, Norway+CU. Though it seems a logical step, once you go that way there's a big 'vassal state' problem as hsom says, and to me it's difficult to get from there to remain.
The (very narrow) way to remain is via the tories deal, or no-deal, and Labout needs to avoid committing itself to BINO in case public opinion moves dramatically against any brexit.
The missing ingredient is potential change within the EU going forward.

As I said the other day, the EU is now talking about Serbia and other non-EU Balkan states joining in 2025, which is quite a change in itself.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

George Osborne backs Jeremy Corbyn!
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-speech" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

labour-wins-plaudits-from-uk-business-after-brexit-speech
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by frog222 »

Roger O Thornhill ---

"" Yes, the only one that doesn't is remaining...at some point it'd be nice if the sensible wings of all parties were to say to the British people "Look, there's no easy way to say this but what you've done by voting to leave is to send us up shit creek with a very small paddle..."""

Surely that is an abnegation of responsibility by the so-called sensible wings of all parties, because most of them voted for that disastrous referendum ?

I know . It IS difficult to admit one's mistakes ... :-)
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Just thinking about the nationalisations thing. Folk have, probably rightly, argued that the EU in no way stops us renationalising various industries.

But including it in today's speech was, by design or not, very smart, because the business community have kind of been bounced into accepting it, because it appears to be bound up with the precious customs union, which is so important to them.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:George Osborne backs Jeremy Corbyn!
Like the rope backs the hanged man, I presume.

Never trust him, whatever he does or says.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:George Osborne backs Jeremy Corbyn!
Like the rope backs the hanged man, I presume.

Never trust him, whatever he does or says.
I think he hates May more than anyone ever. Which is believable. Can you imagine those two getting on?
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... fly-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jeremy-corbyn-customs-union-idea-just-might-fly-brexit
A deal struck between the EU and US that failed to involve the UK and that subsequently also led to the unravelling of the post-Brexit cross-Channel trade arrangements would be almost as undesirable for future Brussels trade negotiators as it is now. A genuine alliance of UK and EU negotiators operating as a unified bloc may also stand a much better chance of getting what it wants in Washington or Beijing than either could hope for operating alone.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by tinybgoat »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Just thinking about the nationalisations thing. Folk have, probably rightly, argued that the EU in no way stops us renationalising various industries.

But including it in today's speech was, by design or not, very smart, because the business community have kind of been bounced into accepting it, because it appears to be bound up with the precious customs union, which is so important to them.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jonath ... -manifesto" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The rules don't prevent (some) nationalisation, but
they do seem to limit it's scope, i.e. you can have state owned rail, as long as it's still allowing private competition. You could nationalise a car producer for a limited period, but would hit problems with competition rules, long-term if trying to export.
I can see that Corbyn wouldn't be happy with this on principle (though doesn't necessarily mean he wants to completely nationalise something from the outset)
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by gilsey »

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It is important to distinguish public ownership (in principle uncontrolled by EU law) from State aid (in principle controlled). If the distinction is blurred, it raises the question of of what those blurring it mean by public ownership.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by gilsey »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... fly-brexit

jeremy-corbyn-customs-union-idea-just-might-fly-brexit
A deal struck between the EU and US that failed to involve the UK and that subsequently also led to the unravelling of the post-Brexit cross-Channel trade arrangements would be almost as undesirable for future Brussels trade negotiators as it is now. A genuine alliance of UK and EU negotiators operating as a unified bloc may also stand a much better chance of getting what it wants in Washington or Beijing than either could hope for operating alone.
It doesn't need to fly, does it.
In general I despise political manoeuvring but if that's what Corbyn and Starmer are doing, more power to them.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

So the IMF - *the IMF* - have concluded that austerity economics does more harm than good.

Who knew, eh??
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by ohsocynical »

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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by Willow904 »

Owen Smith
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Important speech by @jeremycorbyn today: Being in a Customs Union with the EU and maintaining a strong, ongoing relationship with the Single Market are both vital to preserve the Good Friday Agreement and to protect jobs & rights in GB and Northern Ireland.
What he said.

I've caught bits of what Corbyn said but haven't had time to comment. Seems to have gone down well, though.
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Re: Monday 26th February 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:George Osborne backs Jeremy Corbyn!
Like the rope backs the hanged man, I presume.

Never trust him, whatever he does or says.
I think he hates May more than anyone ever. Which is believable. Can you imagine those two getting on?
His remarks about chopping up May and putting the bits in the freezer, however little time most of us have for the PM that gives off a distinctly creepy vibe.
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