Saturday 3rd & Sunday 4th March 2018

[citizenJA]

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news ... 67566.html
"Theresa May’s plan to maintain a soft Irish border after Brexit could be changed to accommodate European Union concerns, her deputy said amid signals that Brussels could reject it."

Cabinet Office minister David Lidington, the Prime Minister’s de facto number two, said her high-profile Friday speech was an “ambitious opening bid” for negotiations on trade.

snigger (sorry)

We're millions of people. We can devote a quarter of an hour each day inundating Tory government with simple, loud, sustained messages
'we don't believe you, you're not leading competently, we've no confidence in your government, go away'

[PaulfromYorkshire]

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news ... 67566.html
"Theresa May’s plan to maintain a soft Irish border after Brexit could be changed to accommodate European Union concerns, her deputy said amid signals that Brussels could reject it."

Cabinet Office minister David Lidington, the Prime Minister’s de facto number two, said her high-profile Friday speech was an “ambitious opening bid” for negotiations on trade.

snigger (sorry)

We're millions of people. We can devote a quarter of an hour each day inundating Tory government with simple, loud, sustained messages
'we don't believe you, you're not leading competently, we've no confidence in your government, go away'

Many will have an excellent, albeit indirect, opportunity to do this in the May local elections.

[HindleA]

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/h ... the-party/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Handbook offers Labour new DEAL on addressing widespread discrimination in the party


Disabled party activists are hoping a new handbook will force Labour to confront its failure to comply with its legal duties to prevent disability discrimination.

[citizenJA]

---
Why is nobody talking about freedom of movement? Anyone who has entered the EU anywhere will be able to cross into the UK and vice versa. How can there be any way to stop this without physical infrastructure at the border?

(cJA edit)

Doing so would leave no one in doubt of what Brexit is, the uproar caused at this time would stop Tory government and Brexit
Government won't build now because that unprecedented project would likely end their government and Brexit
That's my guess

[howsillyofme1]

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news ... 67566.html
"Theresa May’s plan to maintain a soft Irish border after Brexit could be changed to accommodate European Union concerns, her deputy said amid signals that Brussels could reject it."

Cabinet Office minister David Lidington, the Prime Minister’s de facto number two, said her high-profile Friday speech was an “ambitious opening bid” for negotiations on trade.

snigger (sorry)

While massively important, it seems to me that customs controls at a post-Brexit Irish border are not the trickiest problem.

Why is nobody talking about freedom of movement? Anyone who has entered the EU anywhere will be able to cross into the UK and vice versa. How can there be any way to stop this without physical infrastructure at the border?

PTO

All the aspects will have to be covered in a future UK-EU Custom Union treaty - there seems to be a general inability to grasps that describing something as a single market/union/arrangement etc is relatively meaningless as it tis the detail in the agreed treaty that will matter. Whatever you call it

The issue with NI/RoI border is that, currently, to all intents and purposes there isn't one - generally because there doesn't need to be as long as the Governments agree on that. The current EU internal market and the CTA allow for that

There is no way that this will be the same in the future unless the treaty covers all aspects.

We cannot get away from the fact that this will be an EU border - not RoI and there will be obligations required for that. If these are not all covered by a treaty then there will need to be checks. What level of checks will depend upon the agreements

The EU has already set out the fall-back option in legal terms. What they will probably require is that the uK makes some legally binding statements on the other two options - not least because the tone of the Tories seems to indicate they will look to renege on as much as they can if there are any loopholes

I will be interested to see how they legally define the concept of a 'hard border' in the WA so as we can tell whether the requirements are met before Option C is triggered. I am at a bit of a loss to see how Options A and B will be met based on the comments from the Tories

Anyone heard anything more on the transition agreement? Have we acquiesced yet?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

All the aspects will have to be covered in a future UK-EU Custom Union treaty - there seems to be a general inability to grasps that describing something as a single market/union/arrangement etc is relatively meaningless as it tis the detail in the agreed treaty that will matter. Whatever you call it

The issue with NI/RoI border is that, currently, to all intents and purposes there isn't one - generally because there doesn't need to be as long as the Governments agree on that. The current EU internal market and the CTA allow for that

There is no way that this will be the same in the future unless the treaty covers all aspects.

We cannot get away from the fact that this will be an EU border - not RoI and there will be obligations required for that. If these are not all covered by a treaty then there will need to be checks. What level of checks will depend upon the agreements

The EU has already set out the fall-back option in legal terms. What they will probably require is that the uK makes some legally binding statements on the other two options - not least because the tone of the Tories seems to indicate they will look to renege on as much as they can if there are any loopholes

I will be interested to see how they legally define the concept of a 'hard border' in the WA so as we can tell whether the requirements are met before Option C is triggered. I am at a bit of a loss to see how Options A and B will be met based on the comments from the Tories

Anyone heard anything more on the transition agreement? Have we acquiesced yet?

One useful outcome from the Camden border bullshit from Johnson was clarification that cameras at the border do constitute "physical infrastructure" and there shall be none.

Sorry this doesn't answer your final question.

[citizenJA]

---
We're millions of people. We can devote a quarter of an hour each day inundating Tory government with simple, loud, sustained messages
'we don't believe you, you're not leading competently, we've no confidence in your government, go away'

Many will have an excellent, albeit indirect, opportunity to do this in the May local elections.

(cJA, edit, emphasis)
Maybe it'll work to get rid of them, I don't know
May and Tory government barely survived the blustering GE in 2017 after creating a wave of whipped up emotion - it was a direct question answered, they failed understanding their government is tolerated, not liked or particularly supported
Tories will resist all direct opportunities for the people expressing their ambivalence for them

[tinybgoat]

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news ... 67566.html
"Theresa May’s plan to maintain a soft Irish border after Brexit could be changed to accommodate European Union concerns, her deputy said amid signals that Brussels could reject it."

Cabinet Office minister David Lidington, the Prime Minister’s de facto number two, said her high-profile Friday speech was an “ambitious opening bid” for negotiations on trade.

snigger (sorry)

While massively important, it seems to me that customs controls at a post-Brexit Irish border are not the trickiest problem.

Why is nobody talking about freedom of movement? Anyone who has entered the EU anywhere will be able to cross into the UK and vice versa. How can there be any way to stop this without physical infrastructure at the border?

PTO

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politic ... 3?mode=amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Britain to push post-Brexit immigration controls back to Irish border"

Shifting the onus of immigration control to Irish entry points such as Dublin airport and Rosslare port would avoid this. However, it would also make a mockery of claims by the Brexit camp that leaving the EU would enable Britain to “take back control of its borders”.

[citizenJA]

---
One useful outcome from the Camden border bullshit from Johnson was clarification that cameras at the border do constitute "physical infrastructure" and there shall be none.
---

(cJA edit)
Useful to us, interested in politics
Useful to Tory government attempting to hold onto power long enough
They're likely holding on until the country reaches some point of no-return

[howsillyofme1]

Here is Article 49 in the December agreement

The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all- island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

I have not yet seen what is the definition of a 'hard border' - can anyone help me with a legally agreed definition?

If not, is this what we are waiting for as it will be key for us in estimating the likelihood of Option C. If is is defined as providing no more barrier to cross-border movement or trade than currently seen then we surely are going to move to Option C?

Could get interesting - and perhaps this is why the ERG are so relaxed because they cannot see any solution that will be acceptable to both sides

[citizenJA]

Apologies for posting this bit of my post again, I think it's important

Tory government will resist giving people direct opportunities for enacting change

[citizenJA]

Tory government don't want to pay for any border control infrastructure construction
The political-social cost likely the one they want to disavow the most, the financial cost is secondary, if even that

[HindleA]

Still a fair few million preferred the Tories, so even less enthusiasm for Labour not particular liking one doesn't automatically transfer to support for another,or indeed stop you voting for them.The surely people will realise thing is from a particular perspective,it hasn't happened yet to the necessary degree by any means if at all and far from certain if indeed that will be the trajectory at all.

[citizenJA]

What is the UK 'point of no return' Tory government are holding on to reach?
Maybe it's end of March 2019, maybe it's earlier or later
Maybe I'm wrong and there isn't one
Look at them, look at their speeches, their actions
They're crazy as hell
What are they hoping for?

[citizenJA]

Still a fair few million preferred the Tories, so even less enthusiasm for Labour not particular liking one doesn't automatically transfer to support for another,or indeed stop you voting for them.The surely people will realise thing is from a particular perspective,it hasn't happened yet to the necessary degree by any means if at all and far from certain if indeed that will be the trajectory at all.

Give most UK people the right opportunity to make themselves heard together, they'll take out current Tory leadership with haste, in my opinion
Tories have money and they use it taking soundings of the people and buying what most people have to look at

[frog222]

independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/justice-minister-urged-to-allow-undocumented-migrants-effective-amnesty-35879097.html

https://www.independent.ie/breaking-new ... 79097.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On " controlling the movement of people'', i wonder how Ireland's estimated 26,000 undocumented migrants arrived there ?

[HindleA]

Why do you think others are buyable?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Here is Article 49 in the December agreement

The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements. The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all- island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.

I have not yet seen what is the definition of a 'hard border' - can anyone help me with a legally agreed definition?

If not, is this what we are waiting for as it will be key for us in estimating the likelihood of Option C. If is is defined as providing no more barrier to cross-border movement or trade than currently seen then we surely are going to move to Option C?

Could get interesting - and perhaps this is why the ERG are so relaxed because they cannot see any solution that will be acceptable to both sides

Article 43. of the 'Joint Report' follows. This isn't quite definition of a "hard border", but the "physical infrastructure" (to include cameras it seems) comment is there.

The United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union presents a significant and unique challenge in relation to the island of Ireland. The United Kingdom recalls its commitment to protecting the operation of the 1998 Agreement, including its subsequent implementation agreements and arrangements, and to the effective operation of each of the institutions and bodies established under them. The United Kingdom also recalls its commitment to the avoidance of a hard border, including any physical infrastructure or related checks and controls.

My emphasis.

[HindleA]

I credit others with at least the same faculties as me.

[citizenJA]

People won't like a wall going up, I tell you, not even Brexit supporters
It'll scare people
The last thing Tories want is confirmation they're fourteenth-century aristocracy

[citizenJA]

I credit others with at least the same faculties as me.

So do I, brother
I don't write as well as I'd like and my meaning isn't clear or maybe you and I won't agree here
Tory government hold the reins tightly, they buy psychological manipulation because it works

[citizenJA]

Tory government know they're vulnerable, look what happened when all their money failed to buy them a mandate in June 2017
I do credit people for knowing

[citizenJA]

Why do you think others are buyable?

I don't
I hadn't seen this prior posting those others
Again, I'm not expressing myself as clearly as I'd like
We don't get bought, we get distracted

[citizenJA]

I've posted a series of comments on this page that might make more sense if read together, maybe

[HindleA]

Depends on perspective,Labour didn't fare as well.Wounded animals are dangerous,my point is there is nothing certain about the trajectory.

[citizenJA]

Depends on perspective,Labour didn't fare as well.Wounded animals are dangerous,my point is there is nothing certain about the trajectory.

(cJA emphasis)

Exactly

[howsillyofme1]

Cheers Paul

Still a bit ambiguous but more definition

I think we then move on to defining 'physical infrastructure'

My feeling is the EU will look to some really quite tight definitions of the accepted outcome to prevent Option C. There can be little trust in the British acting in good faith on this subject

If you look at the detail they have gone into in the legal definitions of Option C then I think that they will want the same for the others

By having a legally enforceable test then the detail of the other options can be legitimately left vague

My guess we are going to see many debates in the near future on the definition of 'hard border', 'physical infrastructure' and 'checks and controls'

[citizenJA]

Tory government nearly got tossed out on their ear last time they attempted breezing along thinking they're untouchable
you think they'll welcome opportunity for everyone giving their opinion on their proceedings?
Millions of us sending messages Tory government can't ignore or make others not see over and over is one little way I fancied might help, I'm sure more effective, simple and non-violent ways are available

[citizenJA]

Less than 800,000 votes exist between the those voting Tory and Labour in the last UK GE 2017
Out of an electorate of over 46,000,000 total
I know that first past the post elections effectively mean peoples' votes don't all count the same
So do Tory government
How else do they get a shot at leadership?
It sure as hell isn't because they're good at representing country and people

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Cheers Paul

Still a bit ambiguous but more definition

I think we then move on to defining 'physical infrastructure'

My feeling is the EU will look to some really quite tight definitions of the accepted outcome to prevent Option C. There can be little trust in the British acting in good faith on this subject

If you look at the detail they have gone into in the legal definitions of Option C then I think that they will want the same for the others

By having a legally enforceable test then the detail of the other options can be legitimately left vague

My guess we are going to see many debates in the near future on the definition of 'hard border', 'physical infrastructure' and 'checks and controls'

Indeed.

It does seem, as I say, to be quite clear for the moment that cameras constitute physical infrastructure.

[frog222]

Cheers Paul

Still a bit ambiguous but more definition

I think we then move on to defining 'physical infrastructure'

My feeling is the EU will look to some really quite tight definitions of the accepted outcome to prevent Option C. There can be little trust in the British acting in good faith on this subject

If you look at the detail they have gone into in the legal definitions of Option C then I think that they will want the same for the others

By having a legally enforceable test then the detail of the other options can be legitimately left vague

My guess we are going to see many debates in the near future on the definition of 'hard border', 'physical infrastructure' and 'checks and controls'

Somewhere between zero and a hundred percent

“” There will be a need of a Customs and Border solution post-Brexit on 29 March 2019 at 23.00, regardless of political solution and Brexit negotiation results. It will have severe consequences if such a Customs and Border solution is not designed, developed and implemented to facilitate the movement of people and trade. “”

Quite a lot of detail in this one --

/sluggerotoole.com/2018/03/02/so-we-just-have-to-be-smart-apparently/

https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/03/02/so ... pparently/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HindleA]

Apologies I misstated the difference.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

This is from Hansard, from the response to Emily Thorbgerry's Urgent Question last Wednesday.

Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)

The Foreign Secretary claimed that congestion charge technology is the answer to border checks outside a customs union. However, he will know that the congestion charge checks vehicles, not what is in them, and that it includes 197 camera sites around London that no one notices, because they are in built-up areas, and that no one cares about because the last time I looked there had been a long history of peace between inner and outer London. In Northern Ireland last year, there were four attacks on the lives of police officers, 58 shooting incidents and 33 bombing incidents, and the Police Service of Northern Ireland has warned that any infrastructure at the border is a threat. Will the Minister for the Cabinet Office confirm that Ministers rule out any physical infrastructure at the border and that cameras are physical? Do they rule out new cameras at the border—yes or no?

Mr Lidington

We stand by the words to which we committed ourselves in December, which include no physical infrastructure at the border.

[AnatolyKasparov]

People won't like a wall going up, I tell you, not even Brexit supporters
It'll scare people
The last thing Tories want is confirmation they're fourteenth-century aristocracy

A very astute observation IMO.

[howsillyofme1]

The EU will want these words and definitions in a legally bing agreement

The Tories have been pretty slippery on this (understandably why) but the WA will tie them in......tight!

Once the WA agreement is in place it will be more and more difficult for them as their solutions will have something to test against - perhaps this is why the ERG are so content

They cannot see the Government being able to deliver their red lines in an agreement with the EU....and will be looking to blame the EU for it

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)

Can the Minister confirm that cameras count as infrastructure? Can he point us to an example anywhere in the world of an international border with no customs union and no border infrastructure? Can he provide one example, from anywhere?

Mr Lidington

The language of the joint report is very clear that associated physical infrastructure is ruled out.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Lidington doesn't actually specifically say "cameras count as physical infrastructure" does he?

[howsillyofme1]

Lidington doesn't actually specifically say "cameras count as physical infrastructure" does he?

no, exactly

But I think the EU will probably look for more definition!

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Just a reminder of what we are dealing with on the Irish border!

[HindleA]

"Invisible cameras don't count"

[tinyclanger2]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... eo-luddite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The downsides of technology’s inexorable march are ​now becoming clear – and automation will only increase the anxiety. We should expect the ​growing interest in off-grid lifestyles to be accompanied by ​direct action and even anti-tech riots

I'm in.

[citizenJA]

Some Tory Brexiters have an almost blind faith in the idea that there may be some form of as yet nonexistent technological solution; Bernard Jenkin, interviewed by an increasingly scruffy Dobby the House Elf on Newsnight on Tuesday...

...Borderbananandetecto-straightorbendomatic ™ ® would detect and straighten, or bend, any bananas crossing the border, so they would be the right banana type for the segment of the Irish island they were bound for. Jenkin’s attempt to demonstrate a prototype Borderbananandetecto-straightorbendomatic in the Newsnight studio backfired spectacularly after it lunged at political editor Nicholas Watt’s face and tried to peel it.

- Stewart Lee

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ge-bananas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[citizenJA]

I love the ™ ® thingy

[citizenJA]

People won't like a wall going up, I tell you, not even Brexit supporters
It'll scare people
The last thing Tories want is confirmation they're fourteenth-century aristocracy

A very astute observation IMO.

I'm making this observation from what's going on now. It may not stay that way. Walls and borders going up (with all the expense, planning, physical work) now would likely cause panic, alarm.

[tinybgoat]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nd-general" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Post-Brexit deal: EU to keep draft guidelines short and general
Proposals, due for publication on Tuesday, will be as vague as possible in order to force Theresa May to explain what the UK wants"

The publication of the EU’s draft guidelines on Tuesday will be a stark moment for the prime minister, as it is made clear that a whole range of proposals made by May in her Mansion House speech are to be rejected.

Spoilers.

[Willow904]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... nd-general
"Post-Brexit deal: EU to keep draft guidelines short and general
Proposals, due for publication on Tuesday, will be as vague as possible in order to force Theresa May to explain what the UK wants"

The publication of the EU’s draft guidelines on Tuesday will be a stark moment for the prime minister, as it is made clear that a whole range of proposals made by May in her Mansion House speech are to be rejected.

Spoilers.

Will probably look something like this

David Allen Green
@davidallengreen
Draft trade guidelines:

1. Canada.

2. You could have Norway/EEA if it were not for your daft "red lines".

3. Your loss. Whatever.

[RogerOThornhill]

Excellent stuff about cards. Lots of cards.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RogerOThornhill]

And a thread where Fraser Nelson wants someone else to provide him with the evidence for his, Fraser's, own claim.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, fairly familiar tactic of the right that one...

[PaulfromYorkshire]

And a thread where Fraser Nelson wants someone else to provide him with the evidence for his, Fraser's, own claim.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, fairly familiar tactic of the right that one...

Tell him to Google it

[PaulfromYorkshire]

PTO