Thursday 15th March 2018

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refitman
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by refitman »

PorFavor wrote:
gilsey wrote:@PorFavor

I hope you're well, we haven't seen much of you lately. xx
Hello. I've been an energy-free zone for a while. Hopefully, I shall improve as the weather gets better\warmer. It is going to, isn't it?

Thanks for asking - hope you're keeping well.
You haven't seen the amber warning for this weekend then?
howsillyofme1
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

adam wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote: Hmmm not convinced that you would use a nerve agent for this type of effect....the toxicity of these is very high and there is no safe dose. Suddenly the journalists and politicians become expert on subjects they have not studied for years....
It is much much more than likely that you know more about this stuff than I do, I know, but it has to be said in response to this that there is no reason why you would use Polonium 210 in an assassination, which from what I've read could only have been sourced from nuclear reactors within Russia.
Hi Adam

I think Polonium is a different beast from these type of compunds - getting your hands on this material is very difficult and it was clearly used by someone making a statement - whether false flag or a Government - the latter being the most likely in this case

Nerve agents are well known by all the main states who have been active in research since the 50s - I find it difficult to believe that access to them is limited to Russia - it doesn't make Russia any less likely as a suspect but this idea that only they could have produced this seems highly unlikely - these agents are structurally simlar to organophosphate pesticides (Amiton being the first of this family and was actually marketed)

Without knowing the structure we can judge very little about the ease of synthesis but the main restriction is access to starting materials, many of which are proscribed. I remember having to sign a declaration for using something as simple as KF in a manufacturing process as it is used as one of the raw materials

Again though, we are not talking of industrial quantitites so some of the claims being made just lack a certain amount of substance at the moment

I am untrustworthy of the current Government (and Putin). The evidence we have so far is that the vistim was Russian and the toxin used could have been discovered or synthesised by the Russians at some point.

The fiorst point is indisputable, the second one is a little less convincing
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/court-ap ... enefit-cap" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


COURT OF APPEAL LEAVES DOOR OPEN FOR WIDER CHALLENGE ON LOWER BENEFIT CAP

Child Poverty Action Group's (CPAG) forthcoming case is listed for a High Court hearing on 26 and 27 March 2018. It argues that the revised (lower) cap unlawfully discriminates against lone parents and their children. The lowered cap disproportionately impacts on lone parents and their children, who are far more likely to be capped and are least likely to be able to avoid its effects due to their caring responsibilities"


The vast majority are not expected to work,but may be,legal action led to eventually exempting receivers of CA
Last edited by HindleA on Thu 15 Mar, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
GetYou
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by GetYou »

Thank you Willow, I was hoping someone would respond on the reliability of Mr Murray's arguments.
howsillyofme1
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

GetYou wrote:Thank you Willow, I was hoping someone would respond on the reliability of Mr Murray's arguments.
Not that impressed with some of the arguments made though

In the world of chemical synthesis these are relatively simple molecules and chemists handle toxic materials all the time - these are extremely toxic but still manageable

We don't even know the molecule and its toxicity - it didn't actually kill anyone yet though which is surprising

I have yet to see why only Russia could make this type of compound?

The evidence I have seen looks circumstantial. Perhaps rightly
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://community.scope.org.uk/discussi ... est-ending" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

"I have now had to make the decision to put my house on the market and try buying something else. I spent a lot of money adapting my home to suit my needs. Looks like money down the drain now and a lot of stress to find something else which will be hard enough let alone pay to have it adapted. DWP you sure know how to make folk feel worthless"
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

Simplification.
frog222
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by frog222 »

howsillyofme1 wrote:
GetYou wrote:Thank you Willow, I was hoping someone would respond on the reliability of Mr Murray's arguments.
Not that impressed with some of the arguments made though

In the world of chemical synthesis these are relatively simple molecules and chemists handle toxic materials all the time - these are extremely toxic but still manageable

We don't even know the molecule and its toxicity - it didn't actually kill anyone yet though which is surprising

I have yet to see why only Russia could make this type of compound?

The evidence I have seen looks circumstantial. Perhaps rightly
Perhaps they are not dead because they have been treated in hospital ?
More on the Uzbek angle 14.42 comment at CM --
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/25/world ... eanup.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/415742.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Craig can sometimes be a bit wacky, but is well-informed , still has good contacts .
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

Build an annexe regardless for snooker table or not ,millions mysteriously found to reduce CT in pursuance of self care/care for the "right " people(even if not used for purpose)
PorFavor
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by PorFavor »

@refitman

What amber warning?
howsillyofme1
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

frog222 wrote:
howsillyofme1 wrote:
GetYou wrote:Thank you Willow, I was hoping someone would respond on the reliability of Mr Murray's arguments.
Not that impressed with some of the arguments made though

In the world of chemical synthesis these are relatively simple molecules and chemists handle toxic materials all the time - these are extremely toxic but still manageable

We don't even know the molecule and its toxicity - it didn't actually kill anyone yet though which is surprising

I have yet to see why only Russia could make this type of compound?

The evidence I have seen looks circumstantial. Perhaps rightly
Perhaps they are not dead because they have been treated in hospital ?
More on the Uzbek angle 14.42 comment at CM --
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/25/world ... eanup.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/415742.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Craig can sometimes be a bit wacky, but is well-informed , still has good contacts .

Have you seen the toxicity of these things?

They shouldn't have got anywhere near hospital if they had been exposed in a targeted assassination attempt

Saying that we do not know the details but that hasn't stopped some people pronouncing with absolute certainty what was used and who did it
PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

In wonderful if parochial news, the campaigners against the closure of Huddersfield Royal Infirmary have been granted a Full Judicial Review.

It's not that parochial. The hospital serves a community of 430,000 people! I know we discuss the advantages of centralising some health care, but this was being done entirely for financial reasons.
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/wea ... 2018-03-15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Unless Rudd related.
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

May have impact on other decisions?
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... oss-the-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

Professor Plum in the Library with a dagger.
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

If the situation retains it doesn't disappear by not accounting for it.Mine did,the "lifestyle choice" somewhat "ironic"
frog222
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by frog222 »

HowSillly 4.16 Have you seen the toxicity of these things?

They shouldn't have got anywhere near hospital if they had been exposed in a targeted assassination attempt

Saying that we do not know the details but that hasn't stopped some people pronouncing with absolute certainty what was used and who did it


Does this techie 15.57 comment at CM make sense ?

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... ent-721608" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
howsillyofme1
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

frog222 wrote:HowSillly 4.16 Have you seen the toxicity of these things?

They shouldn't have got anywhere near hospital if they had been exposed in a targeted assassination attempt

Saying that we do not know the details but that hasn't stopped some people pronouncing with absolute certainty what was used and who did it


Does this techie 15.57 comment at CM make sense ?

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... ent-721608" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yep, seems about right

I think one thing I would say it we should demystify these materials

They are chemicals and relatively simple ones compared to some things that we can make - even on 100s tonne scale

The quantity we talk about here is not a WMD - it is a toxic chemical and can be made in a lab - I expect there are hundreds of samples of these nerve agents around. All big countries will have made loads of them in a 'me too' approach once the family was found. We are not necessarily talking of industrialisation so the sample could come from anywhere - this claim about 'only Russia have made this' is just nonsensical

The chemistry is not especially difficult and as this quote says that standard labs could handle pretty much all of it - in fact even the very toxic product could be handled without major precautions, especially as a convergent synthesis

The difficulties for the synthesis are getting precursors but synthetic drug labs have shown that this is not impossible, and we do not know the structure so we cannot really say much on this

The only comment I would make on that link would be on the 'fingerprinting' - I am dubious that we could really identify a specific production or lab facility. We can usually tell the synthetic route but not much else, to be honest identifying unknown compounds can also be really tricky but should be manageable

These nerve agents came from insecticide research and there are thousands of chemists who could make them if they have the recipe and many would even be able to do a retrosynthetic exercise on the structure and identify a viable lab route (large scale is a different matter). The key is the raw materials
HindleA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by HindleA »

Eph is watching,everybody "behave".
howsillyofme1
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

HindleA wrote:Eph is watching,everybody "behave".
erm.....who is the one most likely to be 'misbehaving'?

;)
frog222
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by frog222 »

Mischievous posting ?
frog222
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by frog222 »

Crace is early to day, or I'm late :-)

<b>/2018/mar/15/williamson-channels-private-pike-to-give-putin-the-hard-word</b>

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -hard-word" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tinybgoat
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by tinybgoat »

[youtube]PSNPpssruFY[/youtube]
howsillyofme1
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by howsillyofme1 »

Back to this poisoning thing - the likelihood is clearly a Russian connection and probably some link to their Government although we enter the murky world of intelligence and then the even murkier world of Russian politics/oligarchs. All evidence is circumstantial and we have to have confidence in our Government and assume they are right - excuse me if I do not have much confidence in anything that comes out from them

The reaction of Putin is pretty standard - he would quite happily take the blame (ambiguously and without saying so) as it backs up his hard man image and not a man to be crossed

I will make the point again (for some people who may be spending their empty lives lurking here) that this type of attack has more of an emotional effect and is classic terrorism. These are toxic chemicals - very toxic - and which can be weaponised, but really they are no different from other chemicals and are made via similar techniques using the same equipment and same skills as any other chemical - companies make structurally similar insecticides perfectly legally

Where the truth lies - who knows.......and perhaps we never will know the whole truth
Bonnylad
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by Bonnylad »

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Willow904
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by Willow904 »

The whole difficulty with hybrid warfare is that it's not overt. And Russia may be engaged in a deliberate misinformation campaign to reduce faith in authorities. How can we know for certain what the truth is? If hybrid warfare is real and Russia is attacking the West in this way, our inability to distinguish truth from fiction, who to believe, is all part of it. As I say, "if"....

Still:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... terference" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
US accuses Russia of cyber-attack on energy sector and imposes new sanctions
US officials say malware was found in operating systems of several US energy companies and announces sanctions for election interference
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Willow904
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by Willow904 »

http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-sto ... -1-5435906" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Who's on Question Time tonight?...

Afshin Rattansi

Who? Presenter of Going Underground on the Kremlin's favourite TV channel RT

Where is he on Brexit? Vocal supporter
WTF :?: :!:
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.
Good morfternoon!
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:
HindleA wrote:She stuck to her appearance money demands and was successful.

Have you seen the price of cat food lately? Not to mention the gin.
Redecorating the country house and rest cures add up
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Willow904 wrote:http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-sto ... -1-5435906
Who's on Question Time tonight?...

Afshin Rattansi

Who? Presenter of Going Underground on the Kremlin's favourite TV channel RT

Where is he on Brexit? Vocal supporter
WTF :?: :!:
Well that's going to be a bit difficult for the frothing right - do they cheer his pro-Brexit stance or boo because of being RT?
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by citizenJA »

HindleA wrote:Eph is watching,everybody "behave".
:rock:
:heart:
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refitman
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by refitman »

PorFavor wrote:@refitman

What amber warning?
Ah, not amber, yellow: https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by PorFavor »

refitman wrote:
PorFavor wrote:@refitman

What amber warning?
Ah, not amber, yellow: https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Marginally better.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

This is promising to be an epic...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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PorFavor
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Night night.
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Willow904
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by Willow904 »

RogerOThornhill wrote:This is promising to be an epic...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He's still going...:)
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:Night night.
Goodnight, PorFavor
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by tinyclanger2 »

[quote="HindleA"]Eph is watching,everybody "behave".[/quote]

Oh aye. what are the chances of that?
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Hannah Bayman


@hannahbayman
Follow Follow @hannahbayman
More
BREAKING Russian Defence Ministry issues statement calling UK defence secretary @GavinWilliamson "a vulgar old harpy" after he told Russia to "shut up and go away" #RussianSpy
:lol:

Michael Deacon called this "the campest war in history"
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Or indeed of me mastering a simple technical matter
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by tinyclanger2 »

somehow since attending PF's "techies are us intensive training courses for luddites"
things have only gotten worse
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Looking for good news but not finding it easily:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... gners-warn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
New oil threat looms over England's national park land, campaigners warn
More than 71,000 hectares of protected countryside in the south-east face risk of drilling
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by tinyclanger2 »

Not to mention Sheffield's depressing and bewildering tree anihalation:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ee-felling" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sheffield MPs urge council to pause tree felling
Protests continue to grow over controversial PFI contract that has resulted in thousands of trees being cut down
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
PorFavor
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by PorFavor »

tinyclanger2 wrote:Looking for good news but not finding it easily:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... gners-warn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
New oil threat looms over England's national park land, campaigners warn
More than 71,000 hectares of protected countryside in the south-east face risk of drilling
Yes - I saw that. It didn't do much for me, either.
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Jeremy Corbyn defies critics and calls for calm over Russia

Labour leader warns against ‘McCarthyite intolerance of dissent’ after nerve agent attack
(Guardian)
Makes sense to me.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ent-attack
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by PorFavor »

I've got up (briefly), but I shall retire again quite soon.

It's bloody cold here. Again.
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tinyclanger2
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Re: Thursday 15th March 2018

Post by tinyclanger2 »

PorFavor wrote:I've got up (briefly), but I shall retire again quite soon.

It's bloody cold here. Again.
Likewise. Week 3 of basic insomnia.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
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