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 Post subject: Tuesday 20th March 2018
PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:11 am 
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:36 am 
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@cja I would reverse the question,Governments of all stripes have steadily eroded the effects of contribution,NI and NI credits is the recognition/accounting part,rendered increasingly meaningless not least time limiting by both parties.Contributory benefits(personal experience highly suggest the default on cJSA is denial even though less than 60% in total bother to claim)Certainly here,people in between jobs simply don't bother if they can help it.In the end I didn't the difference is minimal and taxed anyway.Do you think,in effect all benefits should meantested(the obvious direction of travel)The change to loan (means tested)for the must have contributed,including paid work equates the fully fit and the terminally ill for the purpose.I am sure you can see a pattern,how does not recognising contribution not sever the fundamental differences completely?

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Last edited by HindleA on Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:42 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... turn-green

barnier-tickled-pink-as-british-red-lines-and-davis-turn-green

Davis really is in nopersonsland now. The Hard Brexiteers are crying foul (well fish really), with Rees-Mogg throwing same off a boat in some kind of stunt. This is where the haddock come home to roost. All those years of jingoistic tirades about foreign trawlers in our waters when probably it was our own government that was responsible for running down fishing and then of course they fail to "save" the industry in the Brexit moment.

Surely this will play out time and time again as people realise Boris Johnson isn't going to get them any control back over their special "cause".


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:48 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... reement-eu

brexit-weekly-briefing-uk-major-concessions-transition-agreement-eu
Quote:
Brexit weekly briefing: transition is a done deal as Britain backs down
UK forced to make series of major concessions to reach transition agreement with EU


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:42 am 
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Have been asked to write the Labour Manifesto(maybe not just me)

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:46 am 
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A Tobacco when you want it card for the over 55's.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:48 am 
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HindleA wrote:
Have been asked to write the Labour Manifesto(maybe not just me)

Is the world ready for a manifesto without spaces after punctuation?


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 9:07 am 
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Eh ? ? ? ?

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 9:36 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/19/barnier-tickled-pink-as-british-red-lines-and-davis-turn-green

barnier-tickled-pink-as-british-red-lines-and-davis-turn-green

Davis really is in nopersonsland now. The Hard Brexiteers are crying foul (well fish really), with Rees-Mogg throwing same off a boat in some kind of stunt. This is where the haddock come home to roost. All those years of jingoistic tirades about foreign trawlers in our waters when probably it was our own government that was responsible for running down fishing and then of course they fail to "save" the industry in the Brexit moment.

Surely this will play out time and time again as people realise Boris Johnson isn't going to get them any control back over their special "cause".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 8331739a5c


Quote:
He also dismissed reports that he would be throwing fish into the Thames as part of a protest against the fishing part of the transition deal.
(from telegraph)
..."Jacob Rees-Mogg , leader of a 60-strong group of Eurosceptic Conservative MPs, and others are due to board a boat and pass by Parliament throwing fish into the Thames in protest at the alleged “sellout”."

I do hope nothing terrible happens to the boat.


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 9:55 am 
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Good morfternoon.


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 10:19 am 
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HindleA wrote:
@cja I would reverse the question,Governments of all stripes have steadily eroded the effects of contribution,NI and NI credits is the recognition/accounting part,rendered increasingly meaningless not least time limiting by both parties.Contributory benefits(personal experience highly suggest the default on cJSA is denial even though less than 60% in total bother to claim)Certainly here,people in between jobs simply don't bother if they can help it.In the end I didn't the difference is minimal and taxed anyway.Do you think,in effect all benefits should meantested(the obvious direction of travel)The change to loan (means tested)for the must have contributed,including paid work equates the fully fit and the terminally ill for the purpose.I am sure you can see a pattern,how does not recognising contribution not sever the fundamental differences completely?

I'm confused by some of the terms used. I don't like means-tested benefits so much. I don't like degrading conditions for people faced with circumstances beyond their control. If someone is unable to work due to illness or disability, they must have support and not be subjected to harassment of any kind for the support they receive. There's got to be some kind of jobs guarantee or income support for people wanting work.


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 10:19 am 
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Good-morning, everyone


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 11:17 am 
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HindleA wrote:
Have been asked to write the Labour Manifesto(maybe not just me)

Yep!
:dance:


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 12:02 pm 
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From 2017.

Even more relevant now due to Channel 4s programmes on Cambridge Analytica....


Quote:
How did an obscure Canadian company come to play such a pivotal role in Brexit? It’s a question that Martin Moore, director of the centre for the study of communication, media and power at King’s College London has been asking too. “I went through all the Leave campaign invoices when the Electoral Commission uploaded them to its site in February. And I kept on discovering all these huge amounts going to a company that not only had I never heard of, but that there was practically nothing at all about on the internet. More money was spent with AggregateIQ than with any other company in any other campaign in the entire referendum. All I found, at that time, was a one-page website and that was it. It was an absolute mystery.”


Quote:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy#comments

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 12:33 pm 
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ohsocynical wrote:
From 2017.

Even more relevant now due to Channel 4s programmes on Cambridge Analytica....


Quote:
How did an obscure Canadian company come to play such a pivotal role in Brexit? It’s a question that Martin Moore, director of the centre for the study of communication, media and power at King’s College London has been asking too. “I went through all the Leave campaign invoices when the Electoral Commission uploaded them to its site in February. And I kept on discovering all these huge amounts going to a company that not only had I never heard of, but that there was practically nothing at all about on the internet. More money was spent with AggregateIQ than with any other company in any other campaign in the entire referendum. All I found, at that time, was a one-page website and that was it. It was an absolute mystery.”


Quote:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy#comments

Excellent link, strongly recommended !
Steve Tatham was the head of psychological operations for British forces in Afghanistan. The Observer has seen letters endorsing him from the UK Ministry of Defence, the Foreign Office and Nato.

SCL/Cambridge Analytica was not some startup created by a couple of guys with a Mac PowerBook. It’s effectively part of the British defence establishment. And, now, too, the American defence establishment. An ex-commanding officer of the US Marine Corps operations centre, Chris Naler, has recently joined Iota Global, a partner of the SCL group.

This is not just a story about social psychology and data analytics. It has to be understood in terms of a military contractor using military strategies on a civilian population. Us. David Miller, a professor of sociology at Bath University and an authority in psyops and propaganda, says it is “an extraordinary scandal that this should be anywhere near a democracy. It should be clear to voters where information is coming from, and if it’s not transparent or open where it’s coming from, it raises the question of whether we are actually living in a democracy or not.”


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:18 pm 
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The word "The" is my contribution,self explanatory really.Others may care to add further of course.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:19 pm 
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I think it's possible to not begrudge forking out for a sticking plaster whilst simultaneously pointing out that a plaster isn't going to do it because it really needs some stitches.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Was going with "A" but decided to make a bit more effort.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:23 pm 
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First instinct was "fucking Tories" but I thought perhaps already taken.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Is anybody numbering the pages?

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:46 pm 
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Hi all

Just back for the UK

If you forgive me I would like to return to the Sainsbury poisonings (now the furore is dying down a bit) and make some comments from my background of an industrial chemist. Another chemist with a similar background has been a bit of a twitter celebrity with his comments but I feel he has been allowed to get away with some things because of the paucity of understanding of this area

I happen to believe that the truth is far more complex that Putin ordering this and is mired in the mists of Russian crime, politics and espionage. London is a haven for many Russians of dubious origin and their huge sums of money - more than enough to access some small quantity of a chemical

Toxic Material

It should be remembered that these OP come out of insecticide research. The OP is the active ingredient but is pretty useless at itself. To be effective it will need formulating - it is not much different from any other chemical product in that respect (from deodorants to pharmaceuticals to agrochemicals etc.). We keep hearing about 'chemical weapon' but at this scale it should be just considered as a simple poison. Weaponising this should mean delivering it in large quantities whilst impacting on a large number of people. To poison a couple of people is a totally different proposition and the two types of use should not be conflated

The final point on this is that by our standards these molecules are relatively simple - not that difficult to synthesise. We would need the structure to finally confirm but these are usually much simpler than current cutting edge pharmaceuticals and agrochemicals which often take 20 chemical steps and more often than not now have to be single enantiomers

Identification

The OP compounds are pretty small by organic chemical standards and should be identified by MS and NMR as well as other back-up techniques. I am a bit surprised how quickly they identified it and it suggests to me there is access to the breakdown patterns and so the structure is already known, or something very similar. This may not be absolutely correct but it seems probably. If the chemical is already known that that could be important.

Obviously the larger the amount there is available the better, but if that is the case then the question would arise as to what the material is as these molecules are phenomenally toxic. I have heard claims that it was meant to be a non-lethal dose but what this is based on I am not sure and I find it rather weak as an explanation

As mentioned above the OP will be part of a formulation and this may give a lot of interesting information - this may help with likely provenance as I am sure there are different formulations and this will be known in the right circles. This would only be indicative though as I am skeptical that there will be anything that can link it to a specific location

The other way of looking at provenance would be based on trace impurities in the material (we are talking here on around 0.1% w/w vs the active ingredient. I have spent a lot of time looking at using this type of impurity analysis and it is very difficult and, as before, you would need access to a lot of samples to be able to do this reliably


Preparation

There is a massive difference in the preparation of a small quantity of material and enough to be weaponised. If we have the structure of the poison then it can be prepared in a lab by most competent chemists or technicians. The synthetic route can be determined from the literature or proposed by retrosynthesis. What the possibilities are depends on the molecule itself

The only things required are the starting materials and general containment facilities. There is nothing to support the rather strident claim that only a state could make this. That is manifest nonsense. The only thing the state can do is to prevent access to the starting materials as they do with a lot of chemical weapons but that is a hurdle to get over and I am sure if someone has the will then there will be a way. A laboratory preparation would also allow routes to be used to make small quantities that could avoid restricted materials anyway - but in either case I cannot see it being a barrier

If we were looking to make it on tonne quantity, or even 10s kilos then the route would be far more important and would definitely need to be optimised and the options would be very much more limited

If we have access to fragmentation patterns of the material already as mentioned above then it is also likely it has been made at a lab scale in the UK....and probably elsewhere.

The more we claim we know the more likely it is we have access to more than we are letting on. In order to be certain then we would need to have access to samples, impurity profiles and analytical standards......if we don't then I am sure the scientists will be be circumspect in what they claim

It will be interesting to see how this develops but my bet would be that the scientific evidence will be non-conclusive and be weighted with lots of caveats. How this will develop criminally and politically who can say


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:53 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/housing-net ... developers


Developers are skimping on low-cost housing. Time to get tough
John Perry

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 1:55 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/novi ... t-response




Novichok nerve agent use in Salisbury: UK government response

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:01 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/ ... -thinktank


Scrap 'highly regressive' council tax, says thinktank

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Last edited by HindleA on Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:02 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... e-downside


Gove faces fresh scrutiny over school sexual abuse case
Second witness tells inquiry that then education secretary intervened in Downside case

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:05 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... 18#history


Dedicated schools grant (DSG): 2017 to 2018

(Updated)

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 2:27 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/20/gove-faces-fresh-scrutiny-over-school-sexual-abuse-case-downside


Gove faces fresh scrutiny over school sexual abuse case
Second witness tells inquiry that then education secretary intervened in Downside case



Yes - a Catholic school in Somerset. A Gove\Rees Mogg axis?


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:38 pm 
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http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2018/03/ ... it-appeals


DWP wins legal case to block future benefit appeals


And the war against its own citizens continues.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:43 pm 
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http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2018/548.html

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 3:44 pm 
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British values

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 4:57 pm 
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https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa ... nse-force/
"The U.K. has withdrawn its offer to lead a battle-ready EU military force after Brexit, the first concrete example of the impact of the country’s EU exit on European defense cooperation."
Quote:
In a letter obtained by POLITICO, the U.K. informed the chairman of the EU military committee last Wednesday that it would no longer be the lead nation in a 1,500-strong “battlegroup” for EU defense in 2019 because of ongoing uncertainty over Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union.
Britain’s decision comes despite Prime Minister Theresa May’s insistence that the U.K.’s commitment to European security is “ unconditional .”


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 5:30 pm 
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I see that Andrew Adonis has gone back to being a pillock. That didn't last long, did it?

Quote:
Nick Boles MP

@NickBoles

There are some things I really won't miss when we leave the EU. Watching moral pygmies like @JunckerEU crawl to murderous despots like Putin is one of them.


Quote:
Andrew Adonis

@Andrew_Adonis

I wouldn’t have put it quite like this. More like: ‘The EU notes that you have ‘won’ another election by banning your opponents and mass intimidation. Please refrain from invading your neighbours and attempting murder in the streets of England, then we might just rub along.’
Mar 20, 2018


But the Conservative MEP Charles Tannock - brave man - has defended Juncker.

Quote:
Charles Tannock @CharlesTannock
Replying to @NickBoles @JunckerEU

I have no brief for President Putin whatsoever but in politics for strategic reasons states and organisations have to be cordial with those who don't share their values. Eg Churchill & Stalin in WWII or more recently Liam Fox with President Duterte of Philippines. 1/2
Mar 20, 2018 · Elsene, België


Quote:
Charles Tannock @CharlesTannock
Replying to @NickBoles @JunckerEU

2/2 The Union Jack at half mast over the death of King Abdullah of KSA and the red carpet shown for Chinese President UK state visit also spring to mind. The EU is no different from the UK in dealing with foreign leaders. Mar 20, 2018 · Else


(Politics Live, Guardian)


Edited to add attribution


Last edited by PorFavor on Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 6:38 pm 
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Quote:
Rees-Mogg criticised over firm's Russian bank investment

Fund run by Tory MP who has called for tougher sanctions against Moscow has £60m invested in Russia’s largest bank (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/20/rees-mogg-criticised-over-firms-russian-bank-investment


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Jennie Formby is confirmed as the new Labour party Gen Sec.


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Good to see you, AK


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Quote:
Spy poisoning: police say investigation could last until summer (Guardian)


Super.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/20/spy-poisoning-police-focusing-on-skripals-movements


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:44 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 7:47 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Quote:
Spy poisoning: police say investigation could last until summer (Guardian)


Super.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/20/spy-poisoning-police-focusing-on-skripals-movements


Ermmmm....I thought it had all been sorted and it was Putin and the Russian Government

Or could it be that Boris Johnson was making things up again?


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:20 pm 
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Quote:
Watchdog rebukes Theresa May over police funding claims

UK Statistics Authority rules that PM misled public with claim of extra £450m for local forces
(Guardian)


That's not like her. She must have been having an "off" day.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/20/theresa-may-accused-of-misleading-public-over-extra-police-funding


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:26 pm 
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This may interest --

https://petition.parliament.uk/petition ... atures/new

Declare the 2016 referendum vote null and void due to foreign interference

And more news on that coming in every day .

I can sign a petition but have been disenfranchised for over a quarter of a century !


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:36 pm 
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Night night.


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:43 pm 
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Goodnight, PorFavor


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:55 pm 
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The Channel 4 News team has made public comments criticising BBC Newsnight‘s coverage of the Cambridge Analytica scandal. It’s rare for journalists to make such strident comments for public consumption, which points to the gravity of the mistake by the BBC.

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2018/ ... newsnight/

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 8:56 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Jennie Formby is confirmed as the new Labour party Gen Sec.


Is that good or bad - I really have no idea of these things not being a member.

Hope all's well AK.

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 9:45 pm 
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@RoT Here's the Express response :lol:
Quote:
Labour CRUMBLES: Senior staff RESIGN in wake of hard-left Jennie Formby appointment

DIVISIONS in Labour looked set to intensify last night with senior officials resigning in the wake of the appointment of hard left general secretary Jennie Formby.


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Quote:
According to reports John Stolliday, Labour's head of governance and legal, is one of at least half a dozen to walk out en mass. [...] London regional director Neil Fleming and Parliamentary Labour Party secretary Dan Simpson are leaving while policy research director Simon Jackson is quitting after 18 years.

Labour crumbles?


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Tory -> RESHUFFLE
Labour -> CRUMBLE


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 9:57 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Quote:
According to reports John Stolliday, Labour's head of governance and legal, is one of at least half a dozen to walk out en mass. [...] London regional director Neil Fleming and Parliamentary Labour Party secretary Dan Simpson are leaving while policy research director Simon Jackson is quitting after 18 years.

Labour crumbles?


More
Former Labour Party member Chris Baron has joined the Tories.

(Chris Baron was suspended as a councillor because he only attended 44% of council meetings)
(Chris Baron was defended by Tory Ben Bradley, you know, him who wrote libel & lied at a council meeting)

Chris is home...

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 10:00 pm 
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I paraphrased that badly, I think
Tories falling apart is a dynamic reboot
Labour moving a desk it's game over


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PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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