FlyTheNest

A haven
It is currently Tue 25 Sep, 2018 2:59 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Monday 26th March 2018
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 6:34 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 6124
Has thanked: 2124 times
Been thanked: 10105 times
Morning All.

:-(


Attachments:
Screen Shot 2018-03-26 at 08.02.32.png
Screen Shot 2018-03-26 at 08.02.32.png [ 75.23 KiB | Viewed 2490 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 7:01 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/poth ... ter-damage

News story

Pothole fund boosted to repair roads after winter damage
A further £100 million is being given to councils to help repair potholes and protect local roads from future severe weather.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 7:02 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/top- ... hs-schools


Top universities urged to open new maths schools
New network of specialist post-16 schools to drive up standards and help more disadvantaged pupils and girls study maths.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 7:04 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
Guidance

Refugees: guidance about DWP services (downdated)



https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ns#history


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 7:09 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... de-figures


UK pensions gender gap widens in past decade, figures show
Average single woman receives £85 less than a man, up from a £31 income gap in 2006-07


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 7:20 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... re-say-mps


May must consider tax rises to fund NHS and social care, say MPs
Letter calls on prime minister to set up a year-long commission to look at how to raise money


"Consider"
"Year long prevarication"
Green paper specifically excluding half social care spend
DWP actively disintegrating /penalising most cost effective.

Not so much fiddling while Rome burns more fanning the flames


Last edited by HindleA on Mon 26 Mar, 2018 7:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 7:43 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 7311
Has thanked: 4448 times
Been thanked: 16939 times
Morning all.

A surprisingly detailed correction from The Sun on that "how much will you save" story that JRM leaped on - and still hasn't acknowledged was wrong.

https://twitter.com/jdportes/status/978150668333699072

I seem to recall Tom Newton Dunn being not the slightest bit interested in Portes pointing out its many mistakes.

_________________
FTN's supplier of tedious, pedantic education policy waffle; and Pedant-in-Chief generally.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 7:55 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 7311
Has thanked: 4448 times
Been thanked: 16939 times
So....anti-Semitism in Labour.

Big problem or small problem?

I have really no idea and I doubt anyone yapping - especially from the right - about it has either.

But representatives - members, councillors, MPs, leader - need to be more choosy about who they knock around with and more careful with their words.

It'll be interesting to see how the "no limits on free speech" are with this.

_________________
FTN's supplier of tedious, pedantic education policy waffle; and Pedant-in-Chief generally.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 7:59 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15153
Has thanked: 83565 times
Been thanked: 13663 times
Good-morning, everyone


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 8:18 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications

"How to open a Maths school"

(Page not found)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 8:29 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
Constance looking at possible legal recourse regarding knitting ban.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 8:31 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
They've found the page.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 8:31 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 6124
Has thanked: 2124 times
Been thanked: 10105 times
RogerOThornhill wrote:
So....anti-Semitism in Labour.

Big problem or small problem?

I have really no idea and I doubt anyone yapping - especially from the right - about it has either.

But representatives - members, councillors, MPs, leader - need to be more choosy about who they knock around with and more careful with their words.

It'll be interesting to see how the "no limits on free speech" are with this.

For those actually interested in dealing with anti-semitism, it would be better if it didn't appear like a coordinated attack on Corbyn IMHO.

For what it's worth I doubt (and I think this was a finding of recent research) that the Labour Party is more or less anti-semitic than other groups of people. I've certainly never encountered anti-semitism (unless I wasn't sensitive to it) in my dealings with the Party.

My concern with what's going on is that, to an inexpert observer like me, it's hard to disentangle Israel Palestine politics from the debates. Which is why I feel it would be better dealt with out of the limelight and with less focus on particular politicians and personalities.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 8:31 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ths-school


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 8:37 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 7311
Has thanked: 4448 times
Been thanked: 16939 times
HindleA wrote:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/top-universities-urged-to-open-new-maths-schools


Top universities urged to open new maths schools
New network of specialist post-16 schools to drive up standards and help more disadvantaged pupils and girls study maths.


Tim Dracup who used to tweet as Gifted Phoenix wrote about specialist Maths schools last year. Warning - it's quite long.

https://timdracup.wordpress.com/2017/06 ... s-schools/

_________________
FTN's supplier of tedious, pedantic education policy waffle; and Pedant-in-Chief generally.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 8:37 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 6:27 pm
Posts: 6124
Has thanked: 2124 times
Been thanked: 10105 times
From Jewish Voice for Labour
Quote:
We are Jews in the Labour Party currently actively campaigning for Labour in local elections. We are appalled by the actions and statements of the Board of Deputies. They do not represent us or the many Jews in the Party who share Jeremy Corbyn’s vision for social justice and fairness. Jeremy’s consistent commitment to anti-racism is all the more needed now.

As the British people call time on May and the Tories, they are getting more desperate. We would hope that any organisation claiming to represent Jews would be calling them to account when, to cite two examples in the last two months, the Prime Minister‘s ex Chief of Staff uses a national newspaper to dredge up an antisemitic conspiracy theory, and Havering Conservative party issues a dogwhistle leaflet hoping to mobilise racism in their local election campaign. The Board of Deputies has been silent on both. It also says nothing on the global rise of the far right and the toxic anti-immigrant rhetoric of the tabloid press, despite the imperative from Jewish history to speak out against racism and fascism.

The Board of Deputies and those supporting them must be aware that this is an attempt to influence local elections and has nothing to do with the real and necessary task of challenging racism and anti-semitism at all levels of political life. We call on them to stop playing politics and start representing what our community needs. We believe that is best represented by the politics we fight for and hope to see win on May 3rd.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 8:42 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
Deeming concern both as a co ordinated attack and dismissing as not genuine,not helpful,I suggest.Corbyn very much at the edge of credulity as to level of naivety as far as I am concerned.I,as others are ,am capable of disentangling.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:09 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15153
Has thanked: 83565 times
Been thanked: 13663 times
What should Labour and Corbyn do?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:22 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 5000
Has thanked: 10279 times
Been thanked: 12241 times
HindleA wrote:
Deeming concern both as a co ordinated attack and dismissing as not genuine,not helpful,I suggest.Corbyn very much at the edge of credulity as to level of naivety as far as I am concerned.I,as others are ,am capable of disentangling.


The accusation about the Facebook post is very concerning and doesn't become less concerning just because the timing of the accusation appears to be malicious.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:25 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15153
Has thanked: 83565 times
Been thanked: 13663 times
Willow904 wrote:
HindleA wrote:
Deeming concern both as a co ordinated attack and dismissing as not genuine,not helpful,I suggest.Corbyn very much at the edge of credulity as to level of naivety as far as I am concerned.I,as others are ,am capable of disentangling.


The accusation about the Facebook post is very concerning and doesn't become less concerning just because the timing of the accusation appears to be malicious.

It's more the content of the allegations I'm having trouble taking seriously.
Quote:
...Jewish leaders claim the mural row was just the latest evidence that the Labour leader “cannot seriously contemplate antisemitism, because he is so ideologically fixed within a far-left worldview that is instinctively hostile to mainstream Jewish communities”. Again and again, Jeremy Corbyn has sided with antisemites rather than Jews. At best, this derives from the far left’s obsessive hatred of Zionism, Zionists and Israel. At worst, it suggests a conspiratorial worldview in which mainstream Jewish communities are believed to be a hostile entity, a class enemy,” they say.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... itic-mural


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:30 am 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 2496
Has thanked: 5580 times
Been thanked: 5809 times
I can't see what Corbyn could do that would help, the antisemitism accusations are going to be blown up again every time Labour seem to be making progress, not helped by the usual suspects in Labour itself having their two penn'rth.

As Paul says, Labour is no more antisemitic than any other organisation, but hold themselves to higher standards so giving the right wing target practice.

Fwiw I think it's a media/metropolitan bubble thing with little resonance in the wider UK.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:31 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 11:22 am
Posts: 15153
Has thanked: 83565 times
Been thanked: 13663 times
How is Corbyn and Labour supposed to respond to that, please?
'far left's obsessive hatred...'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:33 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 5000
Has thanked: 10279 times
Been thanked: 12241 times
Good discussion about the changes to bereavement support payments on Victoria Derbyshire this morning.

Significant is that the payment was originally based on the idea that this benefit is related to National Insurance contributions and is, in a way, a replacement for a pension that will never be claimed. The undermining of the concept of National Insurance and contributions based benefits is part of how this kind of change to the safety net have come about. "Entitlement" was once a natural consequence of a contract between citizen and state. Demonize that entitlement and the contract becomes one-sided. We pay in. The government shirks its obigations to pay out.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:39 am 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 2496
Has thanked: 5580 times
Been thanked: 5809 times
Another outrageous immigration case.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ears-in-uk
Quote:
Having lived in the UK for more than half a century, attending primary and secondary school here, working continuously, paying taxes and national insurance, holding a driving licence and voting in general elections; having been married for 17 years to someone British and having had four children here (all of whom have British passports), she is puzzled as to why her immigration status is being questioned.

Quote:
Sally Daghlian, the chief executive of Praxis Community Projects, which has supported more than 120 people in situations similar to O’Connor’s, said: “The burden of proof is astonishingly high. An individual has to produce a minimum of one but preferably four pieces of documentary evidence for every year they have been in the UK. Documents dating back decades must be sought from the tax office, DWP and other official sources. In many cases such records no longer exist.”

She said the introduction of the hostile environment was increasing the prevalence of racist decisions. “Non-immigration specialists (doctors, administrators, civil servants, landlords) are now required to check immigration status before delivering services. This inevitably leads to discriminatory requests for passports, as judgments are being made on the basis of colour, accent, ethnicity and can result in racist practices.”

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:46 am 
Offline
Home Secretary

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 1730
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 3532 times
Big plusses to comments here this morning about the anti-semitism row. The policies of the government of Israel poison this debate and there are avowed anti-semites in the Arab world and elsewhere who thrive on this, and the danger that a political opposition to the policies of the government of Israel can put you alongside some genuinely obnoxious people. Ken Livingstone has also shown that the kind of nonsensical ignorant blind prejudice is still out there and is still expressed.

The problem is that I also can't take seriously the idea that this is a widespread and endemic issue in the Labour party. The letter from the Board of Deputies says "There is literally not a single day in which Labour party spaces, either online or in meetings, do not repeat the same fundamental anti-Semitic slanders against Jews." I would argue you could replace 'Labour party spaces' with almost any other description of any other group of people and this would stand true. People are people and some of them are nasty racists shits.

I've thought about saying this next bit and I'm still not entirely sure about it, but tentatively, and in the knowledge that in saying this I'm starting to create hierarchies and I think that might be an issue, but at this moment in political time - this last decade or so - anti-semitism in political life in the UK is all but insignificant when compared to islamophobia and anti-muslim racism, and the anti-semitism apparently endemic in the Labour party is all but insignificant when compared to the islamophobia and anti-muslim racism which was absolutely at the core of UKIP and is loudly and proudly expressed through wide elements of the Conservative Party, and expressed through other parties and organisations including the Labour Party.

This is another sideshow but it's a desperately damaging one.

_________________
It's not how you fall, it's how you land.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:46 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 5000
Has thanked: 10279 times
Been thanked: 12241 times
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43460112

Quote:
The bereaved parents losing up to £100,000 in benefits

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:47 am 
Offline
Home Secretary

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 1730
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 3532 times
Willow904 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43460112

Quote:
The bereaved parents losing up to £100,000 in benefits


Cue comments on how disgusting it is that anybody could ever have received £100,000 in benefits.

_________________
It's not how you fall, it's how you land.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 9:58 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 5000
Has thanked: 10279 times
Been thanked: 12241 times
adam wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43460112

Quote:
The bereaved parents losing up to £100,000 in benefits


Cue comments on how disgusting it is that anybody could ever have received £100,000 in benefits.


Yes, it's not a helpful headline, is it? The benefit lapses if the surviving parent remarries. And, of course, in many cases children will be older and qualify for a shorter time than the exceptional widow/er with baby who never remarries.

Ultimately, such "unfairness" is baked into the NI system. Many people die before pension age. Does this mean we should time limit pensions to make it "fairer". Some of us never get to claim disability benefits. Quite "unfair" that some of us enjoy perfect health!

Everything we read is designed to persuade us to support measures against our own rights and interests. Depressing, isn't it.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 10:00 am 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 2496
Has thanked: 5580 times
Been thanked: 5809 times
Quote:
British officials are in Brussels today to discuss the Irish border aspect of the Brexit negotiations. According to a story by Tom McTague and Charlie Cooper for Politico Europe, they are “developing a plan to solve the Irish border issue by keeping the whole of the UK aligned with a subset of the EU’s single market rules”.

An arrangement which the EU has always said isn't possible.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-to-p ... n-ireland/

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 10:08 am 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 2496
Has thanked: 5580 times
Been thanked: 5809 times
Willow904 wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43460112

Quote:
The bereaved parents losing up to £100,000 in benefits

It's yet another example of their meanness, pennypinching, the overall cost of that benefit is small change to the Treasury.
Same attitude as the Home Office 'hostile environment'.

I hated Thatcher but I don't recall being outraged daily on the same scale as I am now. I think that govt went for the big picture rather than the detail.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 10:10 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 5000
Has thanked: 10279 times
Been thanked: 12241 times
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-la ... eal-2018-3

Quote:
EXCLUSIVE: Labour's Barry Gardiner suggested the party should back May's final Brexit deal, even if they don't agree with it.


I've posted a couple of comments lately that have alluded to this problem. Keir Starmer has not only anticipated this problem, though, but has come up with some ideas on how to tackle it that I hadn't considered. Whether they could be successful is debatable, but at least he's trying.


Quote:
Shadow Brexit Secretary, Sir Keir Starmer, will today call for Parliament to decide what happens if the deal is rejected.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 10:15 am 
Offline
Home Secretary

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 1730
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 3532 times
Willow904 wrote:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-labour-barry-gardiner-theresa-may-final-deal-2018-3

Quote:
EXCLUSIVE: Labour's Barry Gardiner suggested the party should back May's final Brexit deal, even if they don't agree with it.


I've posted a couple of comments lately that have alluded to this problem. Keir Starmer has not only anticipated this problem, though, but has come up with some ideas on how to tackle it that I hadn't considered. Whether they could be successful is debatable, but at least he's trying.


Quote:
Shadow Brexit Secretary, Sir Keir Starmer, will today call for Parliament to decide what happens if the deal is rejected.


The government are trying to create the impossible option for everyone else - what's the right thing to do when you're presented with a choice between two options which are both awful? Choose the least worse? Or refuse to choose and demand more options. Do we actively accept a deal that will make us all poorer, or actively reject it and choose instead a no deal solution that will all but certainly be even worse, or do we passively accept the bad deal over the worst deal by abstaining? It's all wrong.

_________________
It's not how you fall, it's how you land.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 10:16 am 
Offline
Home Secretary

Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 8:15 pm
Posts: 1730
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 3532 times
Interestingly, given something else that's been in the press in the not too distant past, you could also argue that, because there are a small number of people in the party pushing the issue, Labour is the particularly transphobic party - no, let's make that the party most intolerant of LGBTQ issues - at the moment.

It's almost as though there are local elections coming up with a particular focus on what's at stake in socially liberal London...

_________________
It's not how you fall, it's how you land.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 10:23 am 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 5000
Has thanked: 10279 times
Been thanked: 12241 times
But this was always the problem of setting the clock ticking before Parliament had properly discussed Brexit strategy, before a detailed white paper had been presented and considered.

On the other hand, we have also handed the EU all the cards by triggering article 50 before we were ready. It's possible May will be forced to betray the Eurosceptic fringe to get any kind of deal at all and it will be in Labour's interests to support her.

Difficult times ahead.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 10:39 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 7311
Has thanked: 4448 times
Been thanked: 16939 times
Yeah I know it's LBC but even so...

Quote:
LBC Breaking

Verified account

@lbcbreaking
Follow Follow @lbcbreaking
More
An exclusive LBC poll has found more voters say delivering Brexit is a greater priority than keeping Northern Ireland part of the United Kingdom.

_________________
FTN's supplier of tedious, pedantic education policy waffle; and Pedant-in-Chief generally.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 10:40 am 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Good morning all

Good posts this morning

I dread to step into the anti-semitism discussion again but will add something to my previous comments on the subject. We have to accept that the nature of racism and how it is represented over time can change. The anti-semitism now that we see in the left is not (normally, although in the case of this mural perhaps not) the same as was seen in the pre-war years, and the many centuries before then.

One of the complications has been the State of Israel and its identification as a Jewish state. I am very much anti-Netanyahu and the Israeli Government and personally think they (and some of their predecessors) have been guilty of some terrible acts. Their development of nuclear weapons and stockpiling of CW without signing treaties compunds this

Does this make me anti-semitic - I bet there are some who would think so as criticising Israel is seen as unacceptable

There is then on top of that the added complication of Zionism - which is a political nationalism - but anti-Zionism is now synonymous with anti-Semitism - something I can understand to a degree but only to a degree as it is relatively recent history.

I imagine the conflation of all these things has led to this increase in accusations of antio-semitism and, as mentioned previously, the people who comment on this area need to be very careful and choose words carefully. This has not always been the case, and even if some comments have some basis int he truth they should still be avoided.

Is Jeremy Corbyn a racist anti-semite. I would say absolutely not. is he vehemently opposed to the Netanyahu Government and many of its predecessors - I would say yes. The presence of Israel and the controversial policies makes anti-semitism a political weapon as well - I am personally convinced it is used by the Israeli Giovernment and its supporters at times to cow dritics and deflect criticism. This is a cynical ploy if I am correct and is as insidious in its own right

If I look around me I see much more blatantly anti-muslim rhetoric on social media and in the press than anti-semitic. It doesn't mean that one is more 'acceptable' thean the other but I do not see anti-muslim rhetoric in parts of the establishment being treated in the same way as perceived anti-semitism

Noo-one shouted anti-semitism when Jon Lansmann was being attacked in the press - I wonder if it had been the left of Labour who had instigated these attacks the response would have been the same


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 11:09 am 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:18 pm
Posts: 7311
Has thanked: 4448 times
Been thanked: 16939 times
Oh dear...can't say I blame him though.

https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status ... 1145188352

Quote:
lisa o'carroll
‏@lisaocarroll
Follow Follow @lisaocarroll
More
BREAKING DExEU's man responsible for Northern Ireland quits Brexit department to go work for Prince William.

_________________
FTN's supplier of tedious, pedantic education policy waffle; and Pedant-in-Chief generally.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 11:11 am 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 2496
Has thanked: 5580 times
Been thanked: 5809 times
RogerOThornhill wrote:
Yeah I know it's LBC but even so...

Quote:
LBC Breaking

Verified account

@lbcbreaking
Follow Follow @lbcbreaking
More
An exclusive LBC poll has found more voters say delivering Brexit is a greater priority than keeping Northern Ireland part of the United Kingdom.

I think it's been clear for a while that the tories* believe this to be true.

*in general, I'm sure there are some honorable exceptions.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 11:15 am 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 2496
Has thanked: 5580 times
Been thanked: 5809 times
howsillyofme1 wrote:
Is Jeremy Corbyn a racist anti-semite. I would say absolutely not. is he vehemently opposed to the Netanyahu Government and many of its predecessors - I would say yes. The presence of Israel and the controversial policies makes anti-semitism a political weapon as well - I am personally convinced it is used by the Israeli Giovernment and its supporters at times to cow dritics and deflect criticism. This is a cynical ploy if I am correct and is as insidious in its own right

I think we mostly agree with Chris Mullin rather than Umunna.
Quote:

Chris Mullin
@chrismullinexmp
Sorry to see Jewish leaders ganging up on Corbyn. Far less anti-semitism in the Labour Party than in other parts of society and in some other political parties. Suspect it has more to do with criticism of Israel than anti-semitism.

7:42 AM - Mar 26, 2018
440
484 people are talking about this
Twitter Ads info and privacy

Chris Mullin
@chrismullinexmp
Alleged anti-semitism yet another stick with which to beat Corbyn -- along with Corbyn 'friend of the IRA, Hizbollah, Hamas, Czech spy, Soviet spy....' You name it. Whatever next?

7:47 AM - Mar 26, 2018
132
147 people are talking about this
Twitter Ads info and privacy

Chris Mullin
@chrismullinexmp
I am not a Corbynista, but I can see what's going on here. Sorry to see that some of my Labour colleagues have fallen for it. Anyone in doubt should read this morning's Tory press. https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/statu ... 0032508929

8:04 AM - Mar 26, 2018

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 11:31 am 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Again I am stepping on dangerous ground here - forgive me but i want to raise this as an important point

One of the tenets of anti-semitism in the past has been the idea of the rapacious Jew having hands on all the wealth and controlling Governments

This is manifestly nonsense and is based up charactures that have existed since the age of Christ. Normally accompanied by offensive cartoon depictions (although Charlie Hebdo has done the same more recently with muslims and has been defended for doing so)

Where it gets tricky though is that many of these images come from pre-war where the Jewish people were suffering appalling treatment.

However, israel is now on the scene and it is a relatively rich country. It does, I am sure, spend significant money on lobbying and influencing Governments to suopport its policies. There is nothing inherently wrong with this at all - but I get the feeling whenever the mention is made of the Israeli Government using its money to try and influence things then the shout is of 'anti-semitism' based on these historical charactures

I agree with the Chris Mullins take on this - true racism is being mixed up with political opposition to a state. I think this is unhealthy as it prevents justified criticism and allows the true racists to get away with it


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 12:07 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister
User avatar

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 1:40 pm
Posts: 5000
Has thanked: 10279 times
Been thanked: 12241 times
@HSOM

I do understand and agree with what you're saying. The problem is when the hostility those on the left have towards the state of Israel seeps out in attitudes to Jewish people in general. And I've seen this happen first hand, with unpleasant consequences for all those touched by it. I readily admit my own experiences have led me to be particularly sensitive about this issue. It's just that until I witnessed it for myself, I didn't realise just how widespread and how harmful this subtle form of modern antisemitism can be.

For me, the deliberate muddling of antisemitism with opposing of the actions of the Jewish state by critics, which I agree is often happening, doesn't explain for me how Corbyn came to endorse a very unpleasant, racist mural. Even if you accept his claim he didn't look at the picture, however unlikely that seems, that in itself raises questions about his judgment. As an MP he must surely be aware of the need to show caution when endorsing anything.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 12:23 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 7920
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 16867 times
citizenJA wrote:
What should Labour and Corbyn do?


The party passed an unambiguous "zero tolerance" policy on AS at last year's conference.

Implementing it, without fear or favour, would be a decent starting point.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 12:59 pm 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 2496
Has thanked: 5580 times
Been thanked: 5809 times
Willow904 wrote:
@HSOM

doesn't explain for me how Corbyn came to endorse a very unpleasant, racist mural. Even if you accept his claim he didn't look at the picture, however unlikely that seems, that in itself raises questions about his judgment. As an MP he must surely be aware of the need to show caution when endorsing anything.

The simplest explanation may be correct, which is that he's still not thinking like a front-bencher 100% of the time.
Very few people cut him any slack for that, probably rightly? I'm not sure.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:02 pm 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 2496
Has thanked: 5580 times
Been thanked: 5809 times
Amid all the nonsense, Labour starts the right fight on Brexit

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/03 ... t-on-brexi
Quote:
That's why the leadership is already planning how to control it if things go wrong. Brexit minister Lord Callanan said last week that a vote against the motion would be "an instruction to move ahead without a deal".

Of course this makes a nonsense of the Conservative's commitment to a "meaningful" vote on the final deal. There is no meaningful vote between no-deal and a deal, no matter how bad that deal is. It is like choosing between a film you don't want to see and being shot in the face. Your decision to go see the film does not mean you are happy with it. It simply means you don't want to get shot in the face.

This is precisely what Starmer Prime is now trying to control. He plans to introduce an amendment to the EU withdrawal bill creating a statutory provision that it is for parliament to say what comes next if the motion is defeated, not the government. He wants to take the response to the defeat out of No.10's hands and back to the Commons.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:08 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 7920
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 16867 times
Have to say I think that Chris Mullin didn't really strike the right tone today. The latest Stephen Bush piece in the Staggers is closer to where I am tbh.

(yes, the usual suspects are weaponising this - totally predictably and depressingly. But the disquiet over Corbyn's response to AS goes wider than that)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:09 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
Willow904 wrote:
@HSOM

I do understand and agree with what you're saying. The problem is when the hostility those on the left have towards the state of Israel seeps out in attitudes to Jewish people in general. And I've seen this happen first hand, with unpleasant consequences for all those touched by it. I readily admit my own experiences have led me to be particularly sensitive about this issue. It's just that until I witnessed it for myself, I didn't realise just how widespread and how harmful this subtle form of modern antisemitism can be.

For me, the deliberate muddling of antisemitism with opposing of the actions of the Jewish state by critics, which I agree is often happening, doesn't explain for me how Corbyn came to endorse a very unpleasant, racist mural. Even if you accept his claim he didn't look at the picture, however unlikely that seems, that in itself raises questions about his judgment. As an MP he must surely be aware of the need to show caution when endorsing anything.


Hi Willow

On your last point I agree and even those of us who support him have often expressed our exasperation at his continuing naïvety in making these types of mistakes. I do not see him being anti-semitic in any shape or form but he occasionally shows real misjudgement and it does him, his party and us no favours. Especially as he must know the press and his opponents are looking for every point to undermine him

On your first point - obviously you ahve experiences that I cannot comemnt on and in cases like that it is unacceptable. many Jewish perople are of like mind to us politically and there has always been a strong Jewish influence on socialist politics.

This is the same sort of behaviour we see with the mainstream media and many politicians demand muslims make a point of condemning things that they would never support. That similar behaviour though is not quite treated in the same way though - islamophobia is becoming more and more acceptable as well but there is not the same outcry we see here

It is such a difficult subject as I do feel constrained from saying what I think about Israel and its effect on world politics because of the fear of being called an anti-semite. That is not a healthy position to be in for someone with an interest in politics. I feel no such constraint over any other subject apart from this.

I have been called anti-semitic on here for expressing my opinions on Israel (that was sorted out though and is water under the bridge) - that was a really unpleasant feeling. When people say Labour are anti-semitic they are claling the party racist - simple fact. When they say Corbyn is anti-semitic they are calling him racist........including from within our own party. I find it all very depressing and repetitive


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:18 pm 
Offline
First Secretary of State

Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:34 am
Posts: 3211
Has thanked: 860 times
Been thanked: 5547 times
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Have to say I think that Chris Mullin didn't really strike the right tone today. The latest Stephen Bush piece in the Staggers is closer to where I am tbh.

(yes, the usual suspects are weaponising this - totally predictably and depressingly. But the disquiet over Corbyn's response to AS goes wider than that)



AK,

It depends where you come from - I see this as clear weaponising of tis argument by certain politicians and definitely the right wing media - there is a strong pro-Israeli grouping around....possibly because the current Government is so right wing. I don't think there is anything here to do with their race.

Israel has developed nuclear weapons outside the treaties and is also not a signatory to the convention on Chemical Weapons so are not inspected or controlled. Contrast this with the reaction to other countries possessing such weapons

Perhaps Corbyn should resign over this facebook post on the mural - I think that could now be the right move as nothing else will satisfy the critics. This subject will just keep coming back again, with occasional links to Russian and Czech spies

I would not blame him for getting out now and leaving the Labour Party to destroy itself.

I have just writtent to my CLP to say I want to see mandatory reselection brought back and, if not, I will resign my membership

I have always opposed this as I thought it would not help the party but I have reached the end of my tether now - we cannot have another Tory Government and I am sorry to say that the main movers in this furore have been members of the party


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:26 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
.Personally would have benefitted from increase in payment and allowance extension to 18 months,because of no children ie less need,responsibility, more options,makes complete non sense.


Last edited by HindleA on Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:36 pm 
Offline
Prime Minister

Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:40 pm
Posts: 21431
Has thanked: 17209 times
Been thanked: 31095 times
The State Pension is a benefit,we praise people for continuing to receive.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2018 1:37 pm 
Offline
Speaker of the House

Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 9:51 am
Posts: 2496
Has thanked: 5580 times
Been thanked: 5809 times
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Have to say I think that Chris Mullin didn't really strike the right tone today.

I agree with you, but AS on PoliticsLive had juxtaposed Chris Mullin's tweets with Umunna's, which I didn't quote because they're pretty low even by his standards. Between the two we're 80-90% towards Mullin imo.

_________________
One world, like it or not - John Martyn


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot] and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group