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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 8:12 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 8:33 am 
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Morning all.

That Tory leaflet from Havering...

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Nick Boles MP
‏Verified account
@NickBoles
11h11 hours ago
More Nick Boles MP Retweeted Tom Munday
This leaflet is disgraceful. The individuals responsible should apologise, and withdraw it, or face disciplinary action. We cannot attack Corbyn for indulging anti-semitism in Labour and allow messages like this to go unchallenged. @BrandonLewis over to you.


Well quite. Good on him for calling it out.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 8:39 am 
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https://waitingfortax.com/2018/03/28/le ... hypocrisy/
"Legatum and Hypocrisy"
Quote:
Legatum’s record suggests I may face legal threats or worse for writing this. But it and Christopher Chandler are powerful and divisive and we must be free to discuss them and, if they are hypocritical, we must be free to call them out.
That, as Legatum might say, is what “champion[ing] freedom of the press” looks like.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 8:42 am 
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https://www.channel4.com/news/by/gary-g ... toms-union
"Theresa May on NHS and Customs Union"
Quote:
Delaying the departure from the Customs Union would traumatise those Brexiteers who see trade agreements as one of the great bonuses of Brexit. But could they find this is the price to be paid for securing Brexit and keeping alive the hope of leaving the customs union one day, albeit much further off than they would have wanted?

(Think Gilsey mentioned this yesterday)


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 8:56 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Morning all.

That Tory leaflet from Havering...

Quote:
Nick Boles MP
‏Verified account
@NickBoles
11h11 hours ago
More Nick Boles MP Retweeted Tom Munday
This leaflet is disgraceful. The individuals responsible should apologise, and withdraw it, or face disciplinary action. We cannot attack Corbyn for indulging anti-semitism in Labour and allow messages like this to go unchallenged. @BrandonLewis over to you.


Well quite. Good on him for calling it out.

Obv we can expect to hear lots more about this on the BBC, in the Mail etc.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 10:18 am 
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Is the BBC's dumbing-down as bad as their lack of impartiality? Discuss.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43492937

Whoever created this graphic should be ashamed.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 10:36 am 
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Attachment:
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DZSOnatXUAA6qDV.jpg [ 27.49 KiB | Viewed 719 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 10:41 am 
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Cambridge Analytica. The full hearing Get out the popcorn. 3 hrs long.

https://twitter.com/reptillacus/status/ ... 2835103745

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 11:01 am 
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ohsocynical wrote:
Attachment:
DZSOnatXUAA6qDV.jpg


There were people on the anti-labour demo holding banners saying 'no more holocaust denial'. Why on earth even bother trying.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 12:27 pm 
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ohsocynical wrote:
Attachment:
DZSOnatXUAA6qDV.jpg


They have deleted all their tweets now, what a shock eh.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Excellent piece on the front page of the guardian online - good resource for ongoing argument

11 Brexit promises the government quietly dropped
Quote:
Leaving aside the £350m for the NHS, Brexit has promised quick and easy trade deals with the EU and the rest of the world, an end to ECJ jurisdiction and free movement, and British control of North Sea fishing. None of this has come to pass. Here are 11 key abandoned claims

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Seven local council byelections last week:

Cheshire East - Tory hold in a very safe single member division, though their share dropped from 70% in 2015 to not much more than half now (they had also taken roughly that figure in a straight fight with Labour in 2011, the first election on these boundaries) On this occasion, though, most of the resultant slack was taken by the LibDems who polled over a quarter of the vote after sitting the last two polls out. Labour thus relegated to third with a small decrease in their share, Greens last with under 5% - well under half of what they achieved three years ago.

Staffordshire Moorlands DC - Labour gain from Tory with over 40% of the vote, double their share in the most recent 2015 election. Though even that result was maybe a bit of a portent, given that it was much improved on their previous showings in 2003 and 2007 when they came bottom of the poll. The first of those elections saw three LibDems returned here, both 2007 and 2011 saw this ward split 2C/1LD and it was only on GE day three years ago that the Tories finally achieved a full slate. In fact, their share was little changed now - Labour seems to have benefited as much from the absence of Green and localist candidates this time around. It was still an impressive result (and double figure swing) of course, and the LibDems also regained some former strength as they advanced by 7 points to 19%. A lone Independent brought up the rear with 5%, well below some previous showings.

Bassetlaw DC - Labour hold with over three quarters of the vote in a very safe ward, one unusual feature of this contest however was that none of the candidates who opposed Labour in the most recent 2015 election - UKIP, Green, and Independent - showed up this time around. So the fact Labour's vote was up over 20 points since then has to be treated with a bit more caution than usual, but this was clearly a very strong showing for them in any case. Tories unusually did not contest this then, but showed up now and got a very distant second with 15%. Which was about twice as much as the last placed LibDems.

Aylesbury Vale DC - LibDem gain from Tory on over 40% of the vote (almost twice what they got last time) and a double figure swing since 2015. On that occasion this ward - which was redrawn for those elections - duly returned two Tory members, but the predecessor wards both had a strong LibDem history pre-coalition so this result did not totally shock. Not for the first time in these parts the disappearance of a once significant UKIP vote seems to have benefited the LibDems more than the Tories (though their own share was only modestly down) Labour improving slightly to almost 20% whilst the Greens dropped slightly but held their share better than in many recent byelection contests. Last place taken by an Independent with just 3%.

Chiltern DC - Tory gain from Independent as the latter grouping did not even make an appearance this time. The previous incumbent won this single member ward with big majorities in every election since 2003, so this contest was always going to be a bit of a "year zero" moment with no Indy flying the flag - and the Tory gain was duly achieved with a share in the high 30s, up 16 points on their distant runners up position in 2015. But maybe the really striking performance was by Labour, having not even stood here this millennium they came a very decent second with almost a third of the vote. LibDems made it a quite close three way finish, also well up on their previous showings here.

Thurrock - Tory gain from UKIP, though this was rather less straightforward than it sounds - there was actually a tie for first between Tory and Labour and in the time honoured fashion this was settled by a coin toss, in which the Royal Mint arguably confirmed its pro-capitalist leanings. This ward split 2C/1Lab in the 2004 all-outs, but Tories won most subsequent elections (2006 and 2011 being the exceptions as Labour came out on top) before UKIP made their big breakthrough in 2014 and duly won the next two contests to complete a clean sweep here. Last time round the Tories finished clearly in second place, however, so this result was a pro-Labour swing - meanwhile the former UKIP group here have repackaged themselves en masse as the "Thurrock Independents" and this first outing for this "rebrand" saw them come a strong third (or even second, if you prefer - though you might say last, which they also were) with over 27%.

Midlothian - SNP gain from Labour despite there being a swing against them from last year overall. This has happened in Scottish by-elections before since STV was introduced in 2007, and will most certainly do so again - it can be seen as one of those quirks that make elections all the more interesting. In actual fact, the Nats have dominated this division in the "modern era", topping the poll every time - in 2007 things split 1Nat/1LD/1Lab, in 2012 2Nat/1Lab and in 2017 1Nat/1C/1Lab. Labour thus had a job to hold their seat here in these circumstances and despite increasing their vote they narrowly missed out post-transfers to the Tories who advanced a further 4% on first preferences to 30%, 5 points behind the SNP who were barely changed. Greens also up slightly to 7%, as the once locally powerful LibDems did not even stand a candidate this time.

Just the one Maundy Thursday contest tomorrow to conclude the month.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 3:54 pm 
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Quote:
Patrick Wintour
@patrickwintour
Labour’s @EmilyThornberry predicts UK and EU by Autumn will only be able to agree a “blah blah blah divorce “ without any proper decisions made. But she says this divorce probably will meet Labour’s 6 tests, and so Brexit vote will pass. #Chatham House
2:10 pm · 28 Mar 2018


Echoes what we've already had from Barry Gardiner, so appears to be the official line.

Keir Starmer is trying to get cross party support to try to tie Theresa May legally into what she agreed on the Irish border before Christmas. I thought this was to prevent a "no deal" Brexit, hence freeing Labour to oppose the withdrawal agreement if necessary, but now I'm not so sure....certainly Starmer seemed a bit downbeat in that Guardian article the other day. Parliament is on course to actively make our country poorer and less secure and there seems no way to stop it.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 4:42 pm 
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After a pretty exhaustive trawl I managed to find one person on Twitter who thought Theresa May had "won" PMQs.

Not quite what folk at the Mail had in mind after AntisemitismGate!


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 4:49 pm 
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Though it appears - surprise! - that the full text of Thornberry's words reveals a somewhat more ambiguous position.

And you do know that Gardiner claims he was seriously misquoted the other day?

(he was talking to MEPs about any possible deal, not MPs - for a start)


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 4:52 pm 
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I am presuming that the folk on Twitter giving Corbyn stick for not raising their pet issue at PMQs have not thought hard about the fact he presented that 84 men under 45 per week are taking their own lives in the UK.

That's over 4000 younger men a year. What a tragedy.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 5:16 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Though it appears - surprise! - that the full text of Thornberry's words reveals a somewhat more ambiguous position.

And you do know that Gardiner claims he was seriously misquoted the other day?

(he was talking to MEPs about any possible deal, not MPs - for a start)


Labour's "6 tests" are mostly about our future relationship, and the transition deal May has indicated she is likely to accept could well, as Thornberry says, meet them, because the real decisions aren't going to come until we've left. As Corbyn has always been clear that Brexit must be delivered, in a choice between accepting May's withdrawal agreement or crashing out with no deal, Labour will be forced to vote it through. Ambiguous hints now are surely just laying the ground for what anyone can see will have to come later if Starmer fails to get his amendment giving Parliament the decision of what comes next if the withdrawal bill is rejected.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 5:37 pm 
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Good-evening, everyone


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 5:39 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
---
Staffordshire Moorlands DC - Labour gain from Tory with over 40% of the vote...
---
(cJA edit)

Thank you, AK


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 5:56 pm 
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Quote:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/28/labour-mps-attending-antisemitism-protest-targeted-for-deselection-corbyn-lammy
Corbyn urged to act over abuse of MPs who went to antisemitism protest
What's happening is confusing, irrational and frightening.
Labour is made up of mostly decent people from members to leadership.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 6:21 pm 
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That is a total non-story, a few blowhards are sounding off on social media as per. It isn't as if the Graun don't have any real news to report currently.......


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 6:24 pm 
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In quotation marks, so hopefully this is what Emily Thornberry actually said ;):

Quote:
She said: “What’s the nature of the divorce? And I think if past evidence of the last few months is anything to go on, it’s going to be a ‘blah, blah, blah’ divorce.

“It’s not going to actually make any decisions, it's going to continue to kick things down the road. We don’t seem to have come to any difficult decisions at the moment.

“The difficulty is going to be with the meaningful vote in October, which we have secured, is that, what is it we are going to be agreeing on? We have our six tests. If you hold up ‘blah, blah, blah’ to the six tests, it will probably pass it."


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... rexit-deal

You see, I don't think she's wrong and if the alternative to voting Theresa May's withdrawal agreement through is to risk crashing out with no deal, what exactly are Labour to do?

For all the fuss about Thornberry being misquoted by the mainstream media, the logic of the inference that Labour won't vote against the agreement is all there. Because Labour are in a very weak position. As I said previously, though, so is May. If the EU are tough negotiators there may be no reason for Labour to oppose the agreement anyway. And Starmer has showed some ingenuity with his amendments that provide a little bit of hope that the worst can still be averted. He's the only one talking about this approach, though, and it's a bit of a long shot probably.

Even so, for me the bigger worry is if May doesn't manage to negotiate a withdrawal agreement at all. What will the government do in that scenario? I have no confidence that May would do the right thing and call Brexit off. I hope it doesn't come to that.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 6:48 pm 
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http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co. ... ality.html

Quote:
A year into Article 50, unreality permeates Brexit

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/a-year-into-article-50-unreality.html

Quote:
A year into Article 50, unreality permeates Brexit

from that article --
So we have a policy that at least half the country, and most parliamentarians, think is a mistake or worse being prosecuted with a level of ineptitude without parallel in modern British political history. It is regarded with incredulity by our friends and allies, and with glee by our enemies. Its main and most vociferous advocates scarcely bother to defend it anymore, and it is based upon a narrow majority that is increasingly looking to have been secured by a deeply flawed process. In the meantime, probably irreparable damage is being done to the economy, to our geo-political standing, to the civility of our political discourse and, the greatest human cost, to the lives of the millions of EU-27 nationals living in Britain and British nationals in the EU-27. Having predicated their lives, livelihoods and relationships, entirely reasonably, on freedom of movement and all that goes with it they remain in an agonizing limbo.

I've had enough of the constructive ambiguity ! :-) :-) ;-)


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
In quotation marks, so hopefully this is what Emily Thornberry actually said ;):

Quote:
She said: “What’s the nature of the divorce? And I think if past evidence of the last few months is anything to go on, it’s going to be a ‘blah, blah, blah’ divorce.

“It’s not going to actually make any decisions, it's going to continue to kick things down the road. We don’t seem to have come to any difficult decisions at the moment.

“The difficulty is going to be with the meaningful vote in October, which we have secured, is that, what is it we are going to be agreeing on? We have our six tests. If you hold up ‘blah, blah, blah’ to the six tests, it will probably pass it."


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... rexit-deal

You see, I don't think she's wrong and if the alternative to voting Theresa May's withdrawal agreement through is to risk crashing out with no deal, what exactly are Labour to do?

For all the fuss about Thornberry being misquoted by the mainstream media, the logic of the inference that Labour won't vote against the agreement is all there. Because Labour are in a very weak position. As I said previously, though, so is May. If the EU are tough negotiators there may be no reason for Labour to oppose the agreement anyway. And Starmer has showed some ingenuity with his amendments that provide a little bit of hope that the worst can still be averted. He's the only one talking about this approach, though, and it's a bit of a long shot probably.

Even so, for me the bigger worry is if May doesn't manage to negotiate a withdrawal agreement at all. What will the government do in that scenario? I have no confidence that May would do the right thing and call Brexit off. I hope it doesn't come to that.

It remains the case that Labour cannot stop Brexit until they form a Government.

There is no sign of the Tory rebellion that is required despite Starmer's best efforts, so what are he and Thornberry to do?

Until it is certain that opposing Brexit is the best way to topple the Government, which IMHO is far from clear currently, Labour is, for me, taking more or less the right line.

Remember I am as pro-EU as anyone on this board. Really.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 8:11 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
In quotation marks, so hopefully this is what Emily Thornberry actually said ;):

Quote:
She said: “What’s the nature of the divorce? And I think if past evidence of the last few months is anything to go on, it’s going to be a ‘blah, blah, blah’ divorce.

“It’s not going to actually make any decisions, it's going to continue to kick things down the road. We don’t seem to have come to any difficult decisions at the moment.

“The difficulty is going to be with the meaningful vote in October, which we have secured, is that, what is it we are going to be agreeing on? We have our six tests. If you hold up ‘blah, blah, blah’ to the six tests, it will probably pass it."


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... rexit-deal

You see, I don't think she's wrong and if the alternative to voting Theresa May's withdrawal agreement through is to risk crashing out with no deal, what exactly are Labour to do?

For all the fuss about Thornberry being misquoted by the mainstream media, the logic of the inference that Labour won't vote against the agreement is all there. Because Labour are in a very weak position. As I said previously, though, so is May. If the EU are tough negotiators there may be no reason for Labour to oppose the agreement anyway. And Starmer has showed some ingenuity with his amendments that provide a little bit of hope that the worst can still be averted. He's the only one talking about this approach, though, and it's a bit of a long shot probably.

Even so, for me the bigger worry is if May doesn't manage to negotiate a withdrawal agreement at all. What will the government do in that scenario? I have no confidence that May would do the right thing and call Brexit off. I hope it doesn't come to that.

It remains the case that Labour cannot stop Brexit until they form a Government.

There is no sign of the Tory rebellion that is required despite Starmer's best efforts, so what are he and Thornberry to do?

Until it is certain that opposing Brexit is the best way to topple the Government, which IMHO is far from clear currently, Labour is, for me, taking more or less the right line.

Remember I am as pro-EU as anyone on this board. Really.


I don't think you have really followed the point I'm trying to make. I don't understand why Corbyn supporters are saying Gardiner and Thornberry have been "misquoted" when what they are saying makes perfect sense, given the corner the UK has backed itself into having triggered article 50 and set the clock ticking. The only way to avoid crashing out will be to support whatever withdrawal agreement May can get. That's unavoidable and it appears to me that Thornberry and Gardiner are starting to set the groundwork for Labour taking that position. What's annoying me is that it seems like only Keir Starmer is actively trying to influence what kind of deal May can get. Presumably Corbyn supports Starmer's amendments, but I would expect the leader of the opposition to be taking more of a lead in explaining what is at stake and what Labour wants to achieve. He is just so passive on Brexit. The fact that the opposition can't do anything until they are in government is always true all the time about everything, yet normally the opposition will be much more vocal in what they would like to see happen. It's the only way the voice of those who didn't vote for the government gets to be heard. Corbyn made a good choice in making Starmer shadow Brexit, but it would be nice to see him backing Starmer up a bit more.

Edited to clarify, I mean to say that I'm not explaining very well, not that you are at fault for not understanding.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 8:35 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
I don't think you have really followed the point I'm trying to make. I don't understand why Corbyn supporters are saying Gardiner and Thornberry have been "misquoted" when what they are saying makes perfect sense, given the corner the UK has backed itself into having triggered article 50 and set the clock ticking. The only way to avoid crashing out will be to support whatever withdrawal agreement May can get. That's unavoidable and it appears to me that Thornberry and Gardiner are starting to set the groundwork for Labour taking that position. What's annoying me is that it seems like only Keir Starmer is actively trying to influence what kind of deal May can get. Presumably Corbyn supports Starmer's amendments, but I would expect the leader of the opposition to be taking more of a lead in explaining what is at stake and what Labour wants to achieve. He is just so passive on Brexit. The fact that the opposition can't do anything until they are in government is always true all the time about everything, yet normally the opposition will be much more vocal in what they would like to see happen. It's the only way the voice of those who didn't vote for the government gets to be heard. Corbyn made a good choice in making Starmer shadow Brexit, but it would be nice to see him backing Starmer up a bit more.

Edited to clarify, I mean to say that I'm not explaining very well, not that you are at fault for not understanding.

Thank you.

We're having very nuanced discussion here and it's hard. I realise now my post sounds like I'm disagreeing with you when I wasn't really. I think we broadly agree.

I think perhaps where we diverge ever so slightly is that I feel Corbyn is right to stand back on this because that's where he thinks the mood is, whereas perhaps you feel he could try and lead opinion a bit more. I'm not sure that I am right on this and there has to be a day when he does step up.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 8:37 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... thornberry

keir-starmer-labour-vote-down-brexit-bill-emily-thornberry

Keir Starmer says Labour is prepared to vote down Brexit bill


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 9:27 pm 
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This really is all angels dancing on heads of pins stuff, however, until there are any actual meaningful proposals to be considered.


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 9:36 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/a-year-into-article-50-unreality.html

Quote:
A year into Article 50, unreality permeates Brexit

Quote:
The lesson that May still has not learned is that whatever she does the Ultras will accuse her of betrayal, so she might as well take that hit and at least commit to something workable

She's hopeless.

The least 'safe pair of hands' you could imagine.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 9:39 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
This really is all angels dancing on heads of pins stuff, however, until there are any actual meaningful proposals to be considered.

The worry is that there won't be any meaningful proposals this side of 2020.

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Good grief...

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BREAKING: Christine Shawcroft, head of Labour’s internal disputes panel has QUIT tonight after The Times obtained an email she wrote on Sunday revealing her opposition to the suspension of a council candidate who posted an article on Facebook which called the Holocaust a “hoax”


How on earth can you defend someone who does that? Moron. Don'r suspend them - just kick them out!

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 9:46 pm 
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"One year to go...and then we go over the cliff..."

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/9 ... 2893250560

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 9:51 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Good grief...

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Sam Coates Times

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BREAKING: Christine Shawcroft, head of Labour’s internal disputes panel has QUIT tonight after The Times obtained an email she wrote on Sunday revealing her opposition to the suspension of a council candidate who posted an article on Facebook which called the Holocaust a “hoax”

How on earth can you defend someone who does that? Moron. Don'r suspend them - just kick them out!
Was it an article about the film, Denial?


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 9:56 pm 
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Great film


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PostPosted: Wed 28 Mar, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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