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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 7:28 am 
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 8:02 am 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/raf- ... y-in-syria


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 8:04 am 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-mi ... t-43710303


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 8:20 am 
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Donald’s made up his mind, so May now knows what to think.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 8:30 am 
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refitman wrote:
Donald’s made up his mind, so May now knows what to think.

Which is a pretty terrifying thought.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 9:31 am 
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Macron has previously warned France would respond if there was evidence of chemical weapon use, so was pretty committed to having to take some kind of action.

The US, similarly, having taken action previously to try to dissuade Assad from chemical weapon use, needed to back that up.

If confrontation with Russia is avoided (Russia's overriding priority is to keep Assad in place so only an attempt at regime change should really give them cause to respond, but this can't be relied upon hence a big risk here) they will probably have a reasonable amount of public support in their respective countries.

I'm not sure where this leaves Theresa May, though. Parliament approved action in Syria against Isis, but has never approved action against Assad for chemical weapon use. Although independent reports offer strong evidence that the Assad regime used chlorine gas at the very least, this evidence doesn't seem to have been very compelling with the British public with polls showing very low support for intervention. Even if the strikes go well, she may find her action remains unpopular. If she has ordered strikes because she thinks it's the right thing to do, because discouraging the growing use of chemical weapons is in our country's interests and could save lives, then it shouldn't matter to her whether it makes her personally unpopular, of course.

Unfortunately we're in a rather depressing situation where only the success of Assad would appear to be able to bring this war to an end sooner rather than later. Yet to support the success of an authoritarian far right nationalist with zero tolerance for ethnic minorities doesn't feel much like success. Certainly, if given the choice, I would prefer Assad continue in power with his chemical weapons capabilities as much reduced as possible, if we are to try to take some positives out of an overwhelmingly negative situation.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 9:42 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
Macron has previously warned France would respond if there was evidence of chemical weapon use, so was pretty committed to having to take some kind of action.

The US, similarly, having taken action previously to try to dissuade Assad from chemical weapon use, needed to back that up.

If confrontation with Russia is avoided (Russia's overriding priority is to keep Assad in place so only an attempt at regime change should really give them cause to respond, but this can't be relied upon hence a big risk here) they will probably have a reasonable amount of public support in their respective countries.

I'm not sure where this leaves Theresa May, though. Parliament approved action in Syria against Isis, but has never approved action against Assad for chemical weapon use. Although independent reports offer strong evidence that the Assad regime used chlorine gas at the very least, this evidence doesn't seem to have been very compelling with the British public with polls showing very low support for intervention. Even if the strikes go well, she may find her action remains unpopular. If she has ordered strikes because she thinks it's the right thing to do, because discouraging the growing use of chemical weapons is in our country's interests and could save lives, then it shouldn't matter to her whether it makes her personally unpopular, of course.

Unfortunately we're in a rather depressing situation where only the success of Assad would appear to be able to bring this war to an end sooner rather than later. Yet to support the success of an authoritarian far right nationalist with zero tolerance for ethnic minorities doesn't feel much like success. Certainly, if given the choice, I would prefer Assad continue in power with his chemical weapons capabilities as much reduced as possible, if we are to try to take some positives out of an overwhelmingly negative situation.


In haste, off to market in a minute .
" far right nationalist with zero tolerance for ethnic minorities "
That applies to many people in the UK and Europe, the ME, but not to Syria which was and probably stil is one of the last places where Christian churches were open .


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 9:52 am 
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Quote:
Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham
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Things we will do to protect Syrian children: drop bombs.

Things we won't do to protect Syrian children: offer refuge to our share of those who flee.


I've seen a few versions of this point on Twitter and it's very true. The Tories have failed very badly on refugees. If we want to present ourselves to the world as a major player in international affairs, that means extending safe harbour and sanctuary to those affected by conflict to the same degree we take it upon ourselves to intervene in those conflicts militarily. Or it ought to.

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Last edited by Willow904 on Sat 14 Apr, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 10:10 am 
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Can't see this ending well for May, a lot of her *own* side are a) sceptical about intervening in Syria and b) narked that MPs weren't asked first.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 10:30 am 
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frog222 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Macron has previously warned France would respond if there was evidence of chemical weapon use, so was pretty committed to having to take some kind of action.

The US, similarly, having taken action previously to try to dissuade Assad from chemical weapon use, needed to back that up.

If confrontation with Russia is avoided (Russia's overriding priority is to keep Assad in place so only an attempt at regime change should really give them cause to respond, but this can't be relied upon hence a big risk here) they will probably have a reasonable amount of public support in their respective countries.

I'm not sure where this leaves Theresa May, though. Parliament approved action in Syria against Isis, but has never approved action against Assad for chemical weapon use. Although independent reports offer strong evidence that the Assad regime used chlorine gas at the very least, this evidence doesn't seem to have been very compelling with the British public with polls showing very low support for intervention. Even if the strikes go well, she may find her action remains unpopular. If she has ordered strikes because she thinks it's the right thing to do, because discouraging the growing use of chemical weapons is in our country's interests and could save lives, then it shouldn't matter to her whether it makes her personally unpopular, of course.

Unfortunately we're in a rather depressing situation where only the success of Assad would appear to be able to bring this war to an end sooner rather than later. Yet to support the success of an authoritarian far right nationalist with zero tolerance for ethnic minorities doesn't feel much like success. Certainly, if given the choice, I would prefer Assad continue in power with his chemical weapons capabilities as much reduced as possible, if we are to try to take some positives out of an overwhelmingly negative situation.


In haste, off to market in a minute .
" far right nationalist with zero tolerance for ethnic minorities "
That applies to many people in the UK and Europe, the ME, but not to Syria which was and probably stil is one of the last places where Christian churches were open .


Yes, you're right, of course. The Alawite elite Assad is part of isn't hostile to the Christian population in Syria. What I've read of the time leading up to the civil war, though, suggests Assad was flaming tensions between the groups that support the Assad regime and other groups such as Sunni Muslims, using racial tensions in a divisive "them and us" way that feels reminiscent of far right nationalism. Using racial hatred as a political tool. I'm happy to be corrected, though. I find the whole situation in Syria very complex and hard to understand!

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 10:35 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Can't see this ending well for May, a lot of her *own* side are a) sceptical about intervening in Syria and b) narked that MPs weren't asked first.


Have any Tories spoken out publicly about parliament not being consulted, though? Or opposed the intervention?

I've seen lots of criticism from Labour and Greens but nothing from Tories, but then I don't follow many Tory MPs on twitter so probably wouldn't know if they had!

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 10:58 am 
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I think there have been a few going public. Though yes, it is mostly "off the record" stuff - for now.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 11:05 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... s-disputes


Disabled people lose legal aid in 99% of benefits disputes
Official figures show that cuts have caused a massive drop in claimants granted help for welfare battles


British values
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 11:09 am 
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https://www.conservativehome.com/thetor ... viour.html
"May’s gambit. To blame Assad not for one attack, but for “a persistent pattern of behaviour”."
[/quote]For most Tory MPs, the issue about Commons pre-authorisation of military action will surely have come and gone. But Monday will provide the first opportunity to get a sense of how many are, as it were, on the Tom Tugendhat wing, supporting action enthusiastically, and how many on the Julian Lewis wing, out of sympathy with it.[/quote]


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 11:10 am 
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https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... -ve-learnt


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 11:13 am 
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https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/TNKm ... 8p33J/full


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 11:14 am 
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Morning all.

I missed this beauty...

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Katharine Birbalsingh on Newsnight claiming not broadcasting Enoch Powell's full speech would be "no platforming history" is a reach, but hits all the meaningless buzzwords

11:03 PM - 13 Apr 2018


What does that even mean?

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 11:35 am 
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Very nice man was outside supermarket this morning, handing out leaflets based on this:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/0 ... s-a14.html
Quote:
The World Socialist Web Site condemns the strikes against Syria carried out Friday night by US, French and British forces. The attack is a flagrant and illegal act of aggression. The administrations of American President Donald Trump, French President Emmanuel Macron and British Prime Minister Theresa May are guilty of a war crime, which poses the danger of triggering a conflict with nuclear-armed Russia.


impressive response rate (before 11:00 am),
keen to know our views on Corbyn, and to point out Facebook presence ..


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 11:47 am 
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tinybgoat wrote:
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/04/mays-logic-to-blame-assad-not-for-one-attack-but-for-a-persistent-pattern-of-behaviour.html
"May’s gambit. To blame Assad not for one attack, but for “a persistent pattern of behaviour”."

Quote:
For most Tory MPs, the issue about Commons pre-authorisation of military action will surely have come and gone. But Monday will provide the first opportunity to get a sense of how many are, as it were, on the Tom Tugendhat wing, supporting action enthusiastically, and how many on the Julian Lewis wing, out of sympathy with it.


From the above linked article:

Quote:
She referred to a “limited and targeted strike”. But what happens if the Syrian regime makes another chemical attack in the near future?


This is May's biggest risk, isn't it?

Though if that were to happen, she may wish to consult parliament after all, before taking further action.

Back in 2013, David Cameron was talking about arming rebel forces, he was talking about regime change. Assad was far more vulnerable then and an attack on him could have opened up a power vacuum that may have favoured Isis. That certainly appears to have been the result of intervention in Libya and Parliament was right to be cautious about repeating that scenario.

The situation in Syria now feels very different. Russia feels very firmly in control. Not just militarily, but are also in terms of propaganda. While we celebrate the weakening of the UK's own hawkish propaganda machine, we need to be wary of not simply falling victim to the propaganda of others. The truth of things remains as elusive as ever and what best to do or not to do is an ever evolving judgement call that no-one can always get right.

I can comfortably condemn Theresa May for her domestic policy choices because they are so clearly made for the wrong reasons with total disregard for the harm she cannot fail to know they do. But in dealing with Russia, hybrid warfare and chemical weapon use? I have no idea what the right choices are in such situations. I just really, really hope she hasn't made a mistake.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/04/mays-logic-to-blame-assad-not-for-one-attack-but-for-a-persistent-pattern-of-behaviour.html
"May’s gambit. To blame Assad not for one attack, but for “a persistent pattern of behaviour”."

Quote:
For most Tory MPs, the issue about Commons pre-authorisation of military action will surely have come and gone. But Monday will provide the first opportunity to get a sense of how many are, as it were, on the Tom Tugendhat wing, supporting action enthusiastically, and how many on the Julian Lewis wing, out of sympathy with it.


From the above linked article:

Quote:
She referred to a “limited and targeted strike”. But what happens if the Syrian regime makes another chemical attack in the near future?


This is May's biggest risk, isn't it?

Though if that were to happen, she may wish to consult parliament after all, before taking further action.

Back in 2013, David Cameron was talking about arming rebel forces, he was talking about regime change. Assad was far more vulnerable then and an attack on him could have opened up a power vacuum that may have favoured Isis. That certainly appears to have been the result of intervention in Libya and Parliament was right to be cautious about repeating that scenario.

The situation in Syria now feels very different. Russia feels very firmly in control. Not just militarily, but are also in terms of propaganda. While we celebrate the weakening of the UK's own hawkish propaganda machine, we need to be wary of not simply falling victim to the propaganda of others. The truth of things remains as elusive as ever and what best to do or not to do is an ever evolving judgement call that no-one can always get right.

I can comfortably condemn Theresa May for her domestic policy choices because they are so clearly made for the wrong reasons with total disregard for the harm she cannot fail to know they do. But in dealing with Russia, hybrid warfare and chemical weapon use? I have no idea what the right choices are in such situations. I just really, really hope she hasn't made a mistake.

She's showing form bypassing parliamentary scrutiny and taking action before an investigation is carried out, but I wasn't comfortable with her justifications, unlike France & USA she's linking it to the attack in Salisbury, so it seems more of a political attack against Russia, regardless of whether Russian personnel are targetted/involved.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 12:14 pm 
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tinybgoat wrote:
Very nice man was outside supermarket this morning, handing out leaflets based on this:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/0 ... s-a14.html
Quote:
The World Socialist Web Site condemns the strikes against Syria carried out Friday night by US, French and British forces. The attack is a flagrant and illegal act of aggression. The administrations of American President Donald Trump, French President Emmanuel Macron and British Prime Minister Theresa May are guilty of a war crime, which poses the danger of triggering a conflict with nuclear-armed Russia.


impressive response rate (before 11:00 am),
keen to know our views on Corbyn, and to point out Facebook presence ..


Feels weird.

Assad is definitely responsible for a lot of deaths in Syria. And pretty credible eye witness accounts put his helicopters in the region, plus the evidence that chlorine gas, at least, was used is pretty strong.

Attempts by the UN to collect more definitive proof are undermined by Russia's veto.

A balanced view would condemn Russia for blocking effective UN action alongside condemning US, UK and France for taking action without UN backing.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Willow --- agreed on 2013 , that it would have favoured IS and the MANY other gangs. Cameron imagined those 75,000 moderates !

TMay's four bombs was the very minimum she could do, and overall the allies didn't go for shock and awe , and many casualties, so it was all largely a gesture . It will calm the idiots like JWoodcock without too much collateral damage .

Electorally ? It's rather obvious that it was a gesture, an expensive one , but I expect everyone's waiting for what happens next .


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 12:27 pm 
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For ..... Willow !

Episode 1 Dangerous Visions, The Kraken Wakes Episode 1 of 2

John Wyndham's science fiction novel adapted by Val McDermid. Performed with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra in a terrifying modern retelling of alien invasion and global flooding. Starring Tamsin Greig, Paul Higgins and Richard Harrington.

The floods have recently devastated parts of Britain. But what if the flood waters never subsided? What if an apparent meteor shower was actually the invasion fleet of an alien race, incubating in the ocean deeps until they were ready to begin their war of attrition against the human race? What if we were trapped on a drowning planet?

Val McDermid is a long-time fan of Wyndham's work and retells this dramatic novel in light of contemporary fears of climate change.

Recorded with a live orchestral accompaniment from the BBC Philharmonic. Composer Alan Edward Williams worked with Val to create a brand new 50's B movie inspired orchestral score that takes on the role of the unseen Kraken during the performance .

Episode 1:
Radio reporters Mike and Phyllis Watson are drawn into the story when a Northern Lights cruise spots five fireballs landing deep in the ocean. With other global sightings, social media is agog, for a while. But governments don't lose interest when Twitter does. And when naval expeditions link up with scientists to investigate the deeps there are more shocks in store. Scientists are baffled, though theories abound then a series of disasters makes it indisputable.
There is something down there and humans are under attack.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bzhrd

15h BST


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 12:29 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:
Very nice man was outside supermarket this morning, handing out leaflets based on this:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/0 ... s-a14.html
Quote:
The World Socialist Web Site condemns the strikes against Syria carried out Friday night by US, French and British forces. The attack is a flagrant and illegal act of aggression. The administrations of American President Donald Trump, French President Emmanuel Macron and British Prime Minister Theresa May are guilty of a war crime, which poses the danger of triggering a conflict with nuclear-armed Russia.


impressive response rate (before 11:00 am),
keen to know our views on Corbyn, and to point out Facebook presence ..


Feels weird.

Assad is definitely responsible for a lot of deaths in Syria. And pretty credible eye witness accounts put his helicopters in the region, plus the evidence that chlorine gas, at least, was used is pretty strong.

Attempts by the UN to collect more definitive proof are undermined by Russia's veto.

A balanced view would condemn Russia for blocking effective UN action alongside condemning US, UK and France for taking action without UN backing.


I think there is(was?) meant to be some investigation today, but there were questions on how useful findings would be.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... ttack-site
"Syria chemical attack: UN weapons inspectors to investigate site"

but, yes it's not very well balanced, but maybe our gvt. leave themelves wider open to such criticism than they should.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 1:34 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... april-2018


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... l-position


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 1:42 pm 
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https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/li ... h-14531055


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 1:45 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:09 pm 
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They really are a bunch of cnuts.
Quote:
The extent to which savage government cuts have deprived disabled people of legal aid in disputes over their benefit payments is revealed today by new official figures that show a 99% decline since 2011.

The total number of disabled people granted legal aid in welfare cases has plummeted from 29,801 in 2011-12 to just 308 in 2016-17, cutting some of the most vulnerable people in society adrift without expert advice in often highly complex and distressing cases.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... s-disputes


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Grevious and systematic harm,more to come.Particularly perniciously targeted.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Tough shit

Sorry,tough love.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Crucially systematic ,we never really attended adequately to deinstitutionalism in the first place ,the means denied for too many increases pressure/costs elsewhere-as we are seeing.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:42 pm 
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https://t.co/va1zq5qF3m
Quote:
Chief Pentagon spokesperson Dana White ended a press briefing on Saturday by highlighting that the US had seen a “2,000%” increase in Russian trolls in the last 24-hours. White had been providing an update of the latest developments from overnight airstrikes on Syrian targets by US, UK and French forces.

edit: bracket went walkabout.


Last edited by tinybgoat on Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:44 pm 
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No accident "opportunities" for leeches as the State abnegates its basic reciprocity/responsibility.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:46 pm 
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The fact that not with a bargepole/ridiculously expensive notwithstanding.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:49 pm 
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"Products"


Laughs hysterically.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Insurance scam.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Contributions mean nothing.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:54 pm 
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Quote:
House of Commons Library
Mortality in the UK
Published Friday, April 13, 2018

In the United Kingdom, there has been a long-term downward trend in both the number of deaths and the crude death rate (the number of deaths per thousand people).
However, since 2011, both the number of deaths and the crude death rate have increased.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-8281


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:56 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
"Products"


Laughs hysterically.
I hate the application of the term 'products' within this context too

Good-afternoon, everyone


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:57 pm 
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tinybgoat wrote:
https://t.co/va1zq5qF3m
Quote:
Chief Pentagon spokesperson Dana White ended a press briefing on Saturday by highlighting that the US had seen a “2,000%” increase in Russian trolls in the last 24-hours. White had been providing an update of the latest developments from overnight airstrikes on Syrian targets by US, UK and French forces.

edit: bracket went walkabout.
Has bridge security been enhanced?


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 2:59 pm 
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There are complex reasons why systematic and grevious perniciously targeted...


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 3:42 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dApp_Tweet


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Waiting for PF patiently,three will arrive at the same time.


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 4:23 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:
https://t.co/va1zq5qF3m
Quote:
Chief Pentagon spokesperson Dana White ended a press briefing on Saturday by highlighting that the US had seen a “2,000%” increase in Russian trolls in the last 24-hours. White had been providing an update of the latest developments from overnight airstrikes on Syrian targets by US, UK and French forces.

edit: bracket went walkabout.
Has bridge security been enhanced?

clip-clop, clip-clop, clip-clop, 'oh bugger'


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 5:20 pm 
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https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... -trump/amp
"Russia’s “Madman” Routine in Syria May Have Averted Direct Confrontation with the U.S., For Now"


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 5:27 pm 
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@frog222

Thanks for the 'Kraken Wakes" tip. Appreciated.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier, but I had an appointment with a rather overgrown hypericum bush

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 5:33 pm 
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tinybgoat wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Has bridge security been enhanced?

clip-clop, clip-clop, clip-clop, 'oh bugger'

:lol:
I've been known to take years getting the joke
It only took me about an hour this time


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 5:34 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
@frog222

Thanks for the 'Kraken Wakes" tip. Appreciated.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier, but I had an appointment with a rather overgrown hypericum bush

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one


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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Couldn't agree more with this...

Quote:
Philip Pullman
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@PhilipPullman
3h3 hours ago
More
Expecting anyone to be able to provide at least one and preferably four pieces of documentary evidence that they were in the UK for every one of the past fifty years is grotesque, brutal, sadistic. I despise the people who run this country.

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PostPosted: Sat 14 Apr, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Paul Mason Retweeted

Adam Wagner
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@AdamWagner1

Just heard BBC radio calling this government’s ‘legal advice’. It’s not. It’s a ‘legal position’ which means it is the government’s chosen justification for intervention. The full legal advice will be far more nuanced and may even advise against this route

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... l-position

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