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 Post subject: Tuesday 5th June 2018
PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 6:59 am 
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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 7:00 am 
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Labour Whips
@labourwhips
14 minutes ago

The Govts public explanation of why they’re intending the EU Withdrawal Bill to be rail roaded through in just 1 day is: “People wanted us to get on with it. Well, this is getting on with it.” We can only assume that we’ll get the Customs & Trade Bills back the following week


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 7:53 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/j ... gee-crisis

five-myths-about-the-refugee-crisis


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:48 am 
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ICYMI
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... gbt-issues

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:11 am 
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https://t.co/eDPSXW0j6f

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:11 am 
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Can someone help me?

Folk on Twitter, including Jolyon Maugham, saying well Labour will just abstain next Tuesday.

But, surely most of these amendments are there precisely because Labour voted for them. I recall one where Labour were whipping abstain but the Lords voted for it anyway. Can anyone recall how many amendments were passed? How many Labour whipped for? Abstain? Against?

I find it infuriating. It's like a whole Twitter world of Hugos :twisted:


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:12 am 
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HindleA wrote:
https://t.co/eDPSXW0j6f

:roll:


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:12 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
HindleA wrote:
https://t.co/eDPSXW0j6f

:roll:

But what about Gordon Broon and the gold?


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:31 am 
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Robert Peston

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@Peston

It has started. This from erstwhile May loyalist: “We can’t go on with TM for much longer. Her inability to show leadership or make a decision is creating a vacuum the remainers use to run riot in. Once the votes are over next week, she has to go!”

10:39 PM - 4 Jun 2018

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:42 am 
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Chronic mismanagement' at Liam Fox's trade department could derail May's Brexit plans

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-ch ... ans-2018-6

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 9:54 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Can someone help me?

Folk on Twitter, including Jolyon Maugham, saying well Labour will just abstain next Tuesday.

But, surely most of these amendments are there precisely because Labour voted for them. I recall one where Labour were whipping abstain but the Lords voted for it anyway. Can anyone recall how many amendments were passed? How many Labour whipped for? Abstain? Against?

I find it infuriating. It's like a whole Twitter world of Hugos :twisted:

Can't help I'm afraid, but it's just another example of the OMG Corbyn mindset.

Here's Caroline Lucas at it, in an otherwise useful thread.
https://twitter.com/CarolineLucas/statu ... 5788054528
Quote:
Caroline Lucas

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16h16 hours ago
More
In conclusion, we have the tech to build a reliable & cost-effective energy system built on the energy we have in abundance - but Gov't is looking the other way, with few complaints from Labour on nuclear ...

Unsafe energy at a higher cost: that's quite the deal. /END

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:01 am 
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Robert Peston
13 hrs ·
Theresa May is arguably the most cautious and methodical politician of this generation or perhaps any generation.

So it more than beggars belief that today she announced she would be rolling the dice in the biggest parliamentary gamble I can recall being taken by any PM of modern times, by announcing that next Tuesday she will ask MPs to vote a staggering 15 times, on amendments to that important EU Withdrawal Bill which is so central to the UK’s future outside the European Union.

At stake is whether she and her ministers are in charge of Brexit, or whether MPs and Lords will determine our Brexit future.

And tonight the odds of her winning look slim – because rebel Tory MPs, led by Anna Soubry, Nicky Morgan, Dominic Grieve, Antoinette Sandbach and the rest, met and think they have the votes to defeat her.

The point is that they, and Labour, and the Scottish National Party all want the UK to stay in a customs union. And they want a parliamentary vote on whatever Brexit deal she ultimately negotiates with the EU to be “meaningful” in the sense that MPs should be able to instruct her to return to the Brussels negotiating table.

She does not want her hands tied in either respect. But even if a few Labour eurosceptics were to rebel against Corbyn, May will struggle to win.

So on arguably the biggest issue facing the country now or at any recent time, she would become the pawn of parliament, not its leader. To describe her in those circumstances as a lame duck would probably be an insult to the limping quackers.

What’s more, in the event that Labour were to overcome its reluctance to sign up for full single-market membership via joining the EEA club, she would probably lose on that too.

If the Cabinet had already agreed on a customs negotiating position that was unambiguous and clearly practical, she might stand a chance of picking off some of the rebels.

But as she made clear when she met business leaders tonight, ministers are still some distance from proving to themselves that either a reworked New Customs Partnership (NCP) or a reinvented Max Fac would facilitate the kind of frictionless trade that would deliver growing commerce with the EU and an open border in Ireland – and if they cannot prove it to themselves, there is no chance they will be able to bring round parliament.

And when the whips try to strong arm the Tory rebels into abandoning their principles for the sake of the party, they will legitimately query why the foreign secretary looks set to be allowed to vote against the most important infrastructure project this government will push through – the construction of a third Heathrow runway. Why should they be loyal if his disloyalty will be licensed?

One MP said to me that there is a growing view in the Tory Party that the government is “almost resigned to losing the customs union vote”. I got some sense of that when one of May’s most important ministerial allies made only the feeblest of attempts to persuade me that the government “has the numbers” to enforce its Brexit will.

In a way, that might be rational – since the PM heard (again) tonight from the heads of those big international companies that they would rather have customs union membership than any version of Max Fac or NCP.

But if parliament were to boss her in this way, she would – to use that resonant phrase – be in office but conspicuously not in charge. And with her authority so shattered, with her Brexit red lines scrubbed, could she really survive?

As I said, as a politician this is bet bigger than she’s ever made.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:03 am 
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ohsocynical wrote:
Robert Peston

Verified account

@Peston

It has started. This from erstwhile May loyalist: “We can’t go on with TM for much longer. Her inability to show leadership or make a decision is creating a vacuum the remainers use to run riot in. Once the votes are over next week, she has to go!”

10:39 PM - 4 Jun 2018


Jess Brammar

@jessbrammar
Surely by now the default answer to “could May survive that?” is yes, however extraordinary that has seemed at times over the past year https://twitter.com/peston/status/1003743559193890816

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:13 am 
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gilsey wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Robert Peston

Verified account

@Peston

It has started. This from erstwhile May loyalist: “We can’t go on with TM for much longer. Her inability to show leadership or make a decision is creating a vacuum the remainers use to run riot in. Once the votes are over next week, she has to go!”

10:39 PM - 4 Jun 2018


Jess Brammar

@jessbrammar
Surely by now the default answer to “could May survive that?” is yes, however extraordinary that has seemed at times over the past year https://twitter.com/peston/status/1003743559193890816

I think Jess agrees with Anatoly ;-)


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:17 am 
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Robert Booth
The smoke ventilation system at Grenfell Tower was reported to have failed just eight days before the fatal blaze claimed 71 lives but a proposal to fix it for £1,800 plus VAT was ignored, the public inquiry has heard.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/liv ... ve-updates

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:19 am 
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HindleA wrote:
https://t.co/eDPSXW0j6f



Quote:
Prem Sikka
@premnsikka
Government loses more than £2bn on RBS stake sale.
Why sell? Taxpayers bailed out the bank and when there is a glimpse of recovery and profits, the government sells it at a loss to ensure that profits are collected by its friends in the City.

Yes.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:29 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Can someone help me?

Folk on Twitter, including Jolyon Maugham, saying well Labour will just abstain next Tuesday.

But, surely most of these amendments are there precisely because Labour voted for them. I recall one where Labour were whipping abstain but the Lords voted for it anyway. Can anyone recall how many amendments were passed? How many Labour whipped for? Abstain? Against?

I find it infuriating. It's like a whole Twitter world of Hugos :twisted:


https://brexitcentral.com/house-lords-v ... ort-stage/
Quote:
The Government lost 14 of the 16 divisions on amendments to the EU Withdrawal Bill at Report Stage in the House of Lords. Here is the list of the votes in chronological order, with links to the full division lists as published in Hansard where you can see which peers voted which way.

(Brexitcentral, sorry!)


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:54 am 
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tinybgoat wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Can someone help me?

Folk on Twitter, including Jolyon Maugham, saying well Labour will just abstain next Tuesday.

But, surely most of these amendments are there precisely because Labour voted for them. I recall one where Labour were whipping abstain but the Lords voted for it anyway. Can anyone recall how many amendments were passed? How many Labour whipped for? Abstain? Against?

I find it infuriating. It's like a whole Twitter world of Hugos :twisted:


https://brexitcentral.com/house-lords-v ... ort-stage/
Quote:
The Government lost 14 of the 16 divisions on amendments to the EU Withdrawal Bill at Report Stage in the House of Lords. Here is the list of the votes in chronological order, with links to the full division lists as published in Hansard where you can see which peers voted which way.

(Brexitcentral, sorry!)

Thank you - very helpful.


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:59 am 
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ohsocynical wrote:
Robert Peston
13 hrs
Theresa May is arguably the most cautious and methodical politician of this generation or perhaps any generation.


I thought that "argument" had been totally busted some time ago. But whatever.


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 11:37 am 
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ohsocynical wrote:
Chronic mismanagement' at Liam Fox's trade department could derail May's Brexit plans

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-ch ... ans-2018-6


She has plans?

Morning all. Computer's been out of action due to power being off while kitchen-makers do stuff to the box.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 11:59 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
ohsocynical wrote:
Chronic mismanagement' at Liam Fox's trade department could derail May's Brexit plans

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-ch ... ans-2018-6


She has plans?

Morning all. Computer's been out of action due to power being off while kitchen-makers do stuff to the box.


Is this a euphemism? ;)


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:15 pm 
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^^^

No, new electric oven needed a new junction box (if that's what they call them). Something electrical anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:51 pm 
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SNP are going to support the tories on Heathrow 3rd runway.

Presumably because they don't want expansion of English regional airports?

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:52 pm 
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That should say the govt rather than the tories, number of rebels is why they need the SNP.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:54 pm 
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Corbyn tweeted about the loss of life in Guatemala this morning.

In the replies, the #FBPE brigade distinguished themselves even more than usual. Not.


Last edited by AnatolyKasparov on Tue 05 Jun, 2018 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Quote:
The landlord of Grenfell Tower which oversaw the recladding of the building in combustible panels has said it will be up to the public inquiry to find out why this happened.

In its opening statement, Kensington and Chelsea Tenants Management Organisation said “a whole range of technical and professional bodies, including those with specific responsibility for building control and fire safety” knew what it was doing. It said:

"Why combustible cladding was used at Grenfell Tower is something this inquiry will have to consider"

Buck-passing already in full flow.
:sick:

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Have I Got News For You

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As new Heathrow runway is approved, PM insists Boris Johnson’s promise to "lie down in front of bulldozers" had absolutely nothing to do with it.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 2:20 pm 
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Activate seems to have been deactivated...

EXCL Tory grassroots group Activate confirms it has shut down less than two months after launch

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/news/95713/excl-tory-grassroots-group-activate-confirms-it-has-shut-down-less-two

Quote:
Activate UK’s former spokesman Sam Ancliff told PoliticsHome that work commitments had come in the way of running the group, with key members saying that dedicating eight hours a day to the project was not compatible with a full-time job.

He added that the stigma associated with the group, alongside a lack of technical skills required to run the operation, meant that none of its members wanted to step up and take over the top roles.


The stigma being that they were regarded as a complete joke.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 3:15 pm 
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But.........but they were going to be as big as Momentum!!


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Hmm...we'll see...


Quote:
Freddie Whittaker

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I assume Zac 'Resigning over Heathrow' Goldsmith will vote against the government, man of principles that he is

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 4:42 pm 
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https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... -remainers
"How Jeremy Corbyn can defy the Tory Brexiteers and Blairite Remainers"(Paul Mason)
Quote:
But in the next seven days, the art of being Labour is to refuse to get worked up about Umunna, Anna Turley and their rumoured new parties, and to get worked up, instead, about the possibility of  - as Arthur Greenwood did in May 1940 – speaking for Britain and bringing May’s shambolic administration to a close. For that Labour needs more than just discipline. It needs to outline a vision that goes beyond “tests” laid down for a government that no longer exists


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 4:54 pm 
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Interesting!

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1004040453157634049

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 5:21 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:


Don't want to say "I told you so" (certainly not to the likes of Dunty) but.........


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 5:27 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:


It would have made more sense for Labour to have pushed such an amendment in the Lords, surely? They pushed for their other aims, like a meaningful vote with some success and now have a chance with Tory rebels to make it stick. Anything new introduced so late might not have time to win over Tory rebels support, whilst weakening Labour support for the EEA amendment Tory rebels have indicated they could well vote for. Is this the intention? Corbyn is adamantly against EEA, even though it is currently the most likely way a soft Brexit can be forced from opposition. I feel there is little point in Labour indulging in fantasies about their ideal Brexit while in no position to negotiate it. The only question worth asking about this late amendment from Labour is can it be passed? If not it just feels like further game playing and triangulation.

I guess it's a case of wait and see.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 5:59 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:


It would have made more sense for Labour to have pushed such an amendment in the Lords, surely? They pushed for their other aims, like a meaningful vote with some success and now have a chance with Tory rebels to make it stick. Anything new introduced so late might not have time to win over Tory rebels support, whilst weakening Labour support for the EEA amendment Tory rebels have indicated they could well vote for. Is this the intention? Corbyn is adamantly against EEA, even though it is currently the most likely way a soft Brexit can be forced from opposition. I feel there is little point in Labour indulging in fantasies about their ideal Brexit while in no position to negotiate it. The only question worth asking about this late amendment from Labour is can it be passed? If not it just feels like further game playing and triangulation.

I guess it's a case of wait and see.

One catalyst may have been the new law to stop overseas workers undercutting locals. This certainly does downgrade freedom of movement as an issue and is something Labour, especially Ed Miliband, have campaigned for.

This was very recent and definitely not in time for the Lords.


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 6:03 pm 
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BTW Richard Angell is highly critical of the move so it's probably a great idea :twisted:


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 6:16 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
BTW Richard Angell is highly critical of the move so it's probably a great idea :twisted:


Most educated estimates are that the pro-EEA amendment some of Corbyn's critics in Labour want has no chance of actually being passed.

This may actually be the best (from an anti-Brexit POV) thing that is realistically available. So let's go for it......


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 6:32 pm 
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Crace !

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nt-commons


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 6:42 pm 
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@willow

https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/10 ... 7186568194


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Psst! I've always been mystified by the "meaningful vote" .

It appears to mean that if one does not like the government's 'deal' with the EU, one can reject it and send them back for more negotiations ?

BUT, if everybody and his or her dog knows the EU is not going to budge, what is the point ?


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 7:25 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
Psst! I've always been mystified by the "meaningful vote" .

It appears to mean that if one does not like the government's 'deal' with the EU, one can reject it and send them back for more negotiations ?

BUT, if everybody and his or her dog knows the EU is not going to budge, what is the point ?

But we'd still be in the EU, whereas May's preference is to say at that point we're leaving anyway but without a deal.


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 7:32 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

Dazza


@dirk1978
47m47 minutes ago
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Replying to @joncstone
So as usual, Corbyn and Starmer know what they're talking about, and the Twitter commentariat are getting enraged about something they don't understand?

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 8:03 pm 
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gilsey wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:

Dazza


@dirk1978
47m47 minutes ago
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Replying to @joncstone
So as usual, Corbyn and Starmer know what they're talking about, and the Twitter commentariat are getting enraged about something they don't understand?

I think the FBPE thing is a really interesting case study. I'm sure a huge majority are entirely well meaning and just desperately want the Brexit madness to end.

Add an concern troll or two to the mix and all hell breaks loose.


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:04 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
frog222 wrote:
Psst! I've always been mystified by the "meaningful vote" .

It appears to mean that if one does not like the government's 'deal' with the EU, one can reject it and send them back for more negotiations ?

BUT, if everybody and his or her dog knows the EU is not going to budge, what is the point ?

But we'd still be in the EU, whereas May's preference is to say at that point we're leaving anyway but without a deal.


Until March 31st 2019 when the time would be up on our two year's notice and we'd be out, unless our domestic snafu brought sympathy upon us from the rest of Europe and they agreed to extend things and, in our extremely snafu'd position, we agreed to pay whatever the considerable price would be.

I promise I'm not Hugo, but I do think this is the case.

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Ah Chris Grayling, how I despise thee.

I've just been to book a train and not only did I find that what was once a journey I made regularly with no changes now requires a change, that change is onto a Northern train and half the timetable is greyed out meaning I'm going to be half an hour late (at least). What this also means is that for half my journey I can't book a seat which is always fun when you have massive rucksack.

How is it even remotely possible that someone as unbelievably useless as Grayling keeps getting ministerial jobs? I mean it's not like he doesn't have a long track record of incompetence behind him is it? Half the stuff he did as Justice Minister was found to be illegal for fuck's sake. And don't get me started about when he was IDS' underling at the DWP.

I guess it's almost understandable given the shallow pool of 'talent' in the Tory party but this guy got a degree from Cambridge, why are we are plagued by so many Oxbridge graduates who are quite evidently thick as pigshit? We like to think we have some of the best and most prestigious universities in the world and yet it seems they regularly churn out witless cretins like Grayling. Given my experience of university and my estimation of Grayling's intellectual ability I suspect serious shenanigans were at play in order for him to get a BA. And let's face it he's not the only one, just the currently most egregious example.

Anyway I do believe I'm beginning to rant so I best stop before my countenance begins to resemble some porcine product. That wouldn't do at all.


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PostPosted: Tue 05 Jun, 2018 11:10 pm 
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How many times does the EU, in 27 languages, have to say 'No' to desperate attempts by UK political parties and their madcap schemes to retain all the benefits of single market membership without any of the political drawbacks (as they see them)?

If there's one thing the EU have been clear about from day one of this clownshow it's been that access to the single market requires free movement of goods, people, services and capital. It's non-negotiable and understandably so.

Labour, or the Tories, can indulge in magical thinking all they like for domestic political purposes, but ultimately it becomes a zero sum game. The EU is not going to compromise it's abiding principles for Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May. Why should they?


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