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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:10 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
@tinybgoat

This is a tricky one!

Reading about the Brexit dividend on Twitter, I realise it's really important that we highlight that the problems with the NHS and the feeble economy originate with the Coalition. It was the Coalition that got us into this mess and painted the backdrop on which a Leave vote became possible.

IMHO, arguments that there is no Brexit dividend, while largely spot on, are fraught with difficulty!

I suppose it could be used to show that one of the wishes of leave (& remain) voters is being delivered, but it can also be used hereinafter as a justification for whatever form of brext gvt. wants , because anything else can be claimed to be risking the (probably non-existent) dividend.


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:11 am 
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That coalition figure - whilst they were carrying out a pointless and distracting "restructuring" as well.


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:18 am 
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tinybgoat wrote:
Quote:
"Some people may remember seeing a figure on the side of a bus a while back of £350m a week in cash," she said.

"I can tell you that what I'm announcing will mean that in 2023-24 there will be about £600m a week, more in cash, going into the NHS.

"That will be through the Brexit dividend. The fact that we're no longer sending vast amounts of money every year to the EU once we leave the EU."


She has no more shame than Gove or Johnson. Disgrace.

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:22 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Thanks Frog that's quite stark isn't it?


Average YEARLY increases in Health spending under the following PMs:
Tony Blair 6.1%
Gordon Brown 5.4%
John Major 4.7%
Margaret Thatcher 2.7%
David Cameron 1.4%

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:25 am 
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Good one from Cohen on the BBC and other relevant institutions, and the Tories, but he goes completely off-beam crazy on the LP, as usual ! :-)

the first draft (apparently !)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -to-ignore

—————————————-

Let’s begin again

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -in-brexit

“”On the Brexit scandal, the BBC offers something worse than fake news: it offers no news. In this, the broadcasters are a true reflection of a compromised political system. Alongside the Electoral Commission, the National Crime Agency and intelligence agencies ought to be investigating. Allegations that foreign states are trying to change the course of a nation’s history are too serious to be left to civil servants and junior officers. You only have to raise the possibility of a British version of the Mueller inquiry to realise why Labour and Conservatives, left and right, would hate it.

The Tories are committed to Brexit. They will not push for investigations into a Brexit campaign whose wishes they are now meeting. Psychologically, Tories and the Tory press cannot separate the Russia allegations from Brexit. They fear that, if they look too hard, the legitimacy of the referendum will dissolve before their eyes.

In the US, opposition Democrats want Trump’s every dealing with Russia exposed. But in Britain the leaders of the opposition Labour party are as anxious as Farage and May to change the subject. Never forget the far left’s soft spot for thieving autocrats. Jeremy Corbyn’s spokesman, Seumas Milne, flew to Sochi to bend his knee to Putin.

Emily Thornberry defended Russia’s Syrian policy as reliably as Arron Banks. Even if you can put its attraction to dictators to one side, the London far left is in a marriage of convenience with the northern Labour right. Both are determined to stop free movement and keep Britain out of the single market: the Labour right because it fears that the charge of being soft on immigration will be electoral poison; the Corbyn left because it dreams of a “lexit” in which it will be free to build socialism in one country. For reasons of ideology and electoral calculation, we are stuck with an opposition that will not oppose.

Can you begin to see why the scandal is not a scandal? In any other democracy, there would be uproar. But here, the Tory and Labour frontbenches must pretend there’s nothing to see. I’ll leave you with the Elizabethan courtier Sir John Harington, who explained in the 1590s how Russia has Britain where it wants it, when he said:

Treason doth never prosper; What’s the Reason?
Why, if it prosper none dare call it treason.

When Cohen gets onto Labour he is really batty !


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:28 am 
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The NHS money feels like a bribe.

It feels like an attempt to make the idiocy of Brexit seem like it has a purpose. It feels like an attempt to protect Tory ministers that supported the leave campaign from being accused of misleading the country. It feels like an attempt to counter the anti-Brexit feeling that is going to grow on the back of revelations of Leave.eu apparently colluding with Russians and Vote Leave breaking election spending rules.

FWIW one percentage point on VAT (the Tories favourite tax) is worth about £5bn. So a rise to 22.5% (as has been speculated in the past) won't be enough on its own.

Which, of course, wouldn't be necessary anyway if we hadn't cut corporation tax, which must be costing us at least £10bn a year by now.

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:34 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
The NHS money feels like a bribe.

It feels like an attempt to make the idiocy of Brexit seem like it has a purpose. It feels like an attempt to protect Tory ministers that supported the leave campaign from being accused of misleading the country. It feels like an attempt to counter the anti-Brexit feeling that is going to grow on the back of revelations of Leave.eu apparently colluding with Russians and Vote Leave breaking election spending rules.

FWIW one percentage point on VAT (the Tories favourite tax) is worth about £5bn. So a rise to 22.5% (as has been speculated in the past) won't be enough on its own.

Which, of course, wouldn't be necessary anyway if we hadn't cut corporation tax, which must be costing us at least £10bn a year by now.

As Gilsey said 9.18 "" She has no more shame than Gove or Johnson. Disgrace.""

She's learning how to do Fake News, Trump-style :-)


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:53 am 
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Quote:
Holger Hestermeyer


@hhesterm
2h2 hours ago
More Holger Hestermeyer Retweeted Nick Clegg
What Nick Clegg gets wrong: there has NEVER been unlimited freedom of movement. The principle is untouchable and can remain untouchable, the details could, can and will be fiddled with. Rather than attack the principle it is time to realise that the details offer a solution.



Hear, hear.

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:57 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
Which, of course, wouldn't be necessary anyway if we hadn't cut corporation tax, which must be costing us at least £10bn a year by now.

We never see that on the side of a bus.

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 10:18 am 
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frog222 wrote:
Good one from Cohen on the BBC and other relevant institutions, and the Tories, but he goes completely off-beam crazy on the LP, as usual ! :-)


And yet the Labour front bench has been extremely quiet on the Cambridge Analytica allegations (Corbyn's only memorable comment being that he intended to continue using Facebook) and then there's the fact that Labour Leave, and more specifically Kate Hoey, seem surprisingly intertwined with Leave.EU with even a suggestion that Banks somehow acquired and used Labour data for targeted leave campaigns on social media.

Even so I'm uncertain why the Labour front bench is so reticent to ask questions about recent revelations. Damian Collins, chair of the DCMS committee, has been pretty thorough and tenacious over investigating these allegations, despite them making uncomfortable reading for some members of his own party. He has raised a lot of issues and concerns through the evidence that has been presented to Parliament, yet still no real concern or sense of urgency to get at the truth appears to be coming from official Labour channels. I don't know why that would be, but it's disappointing. We have rules surrounding elections and campaigns. When they are broken this must be addressed, not brushed under the carpet.

This is particularly true given the overlap with the US investigation into Trump. The true story surrounding Farage, Banks and the leave campaigns is likely to come out eventually at which point many people will wonder why our political leaders didn't show more interest at the time. Indeed, it seems Oakeshott was sitting on her e-mails waiting for us to leave the EU before using them in a book, which creates an unsettling sense of conspiracy among the political classes and the media to just keep a lid on everything until we're safely over the line and out of the EU.

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 10:49 am 
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@Willow

Yes I've worried about that too. There is a feeling of "keeping the lid on" isn't there?

On the other hand, TBF, Corbyn does focus relentlessly on policy rather than process, so maybe his instincts are just to avoid this kind of stuff. He's right in a way. It should be the media's job to get to the bottom of this. And I mean more than just Carole Cadwalladr!


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:00 am 
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Good-afternoon, everyone


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:05 am 
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This is a cracker from Isabel Hardman
Quote:
Much easier to talk about the ‘Brexit Dividend’, which is in fact a recently described subspecies of the Magic Money Tree.


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:11 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
@Willow

Yes I've worried about that too. There is a feeling of "keeping the lid on" isn't there?

On the other hand, TBF, Corbyn does focus relentlessly on policy rather than process, so maybe his instincts are just to avoid this kind of stuff. He's right in a way. It should be the media's job to get to the bottom of this. And I mean more than just Carole Cadwalladr!


I think the media has gone as far as it can. Labour may be waiting for the Electoral Commission findings, but Parliament will need to apply pressure if those findings are to be properly followed up, including anything passed onto police. So we'll wait and see.

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:15 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
frog222 wrote:
Good one from Cohen on the BBC and other relevant institutions, and the Tories, but he goes completely off-beam crazy on the LP, as usual ! :-)


And yet the Labour front bench has been extremely quiet on the Cambridge Analytica allegations (Corbyn's only memorable comment being that he intended to continue using Facebook) and then there's the fact that Labour Leave, and more specifically Kate Hoey, seem surprisingly intertwined with Leave.EU with even a suggestion that Banks somehow acquired and used Labour data for targeted leave campaigns on social media.

Even so I'm uncertain why the Labour front bench is so reticent to ask questions about recent revelations. Damian Collins, chair of the DCMS committee, has been pretty thorough and tenacious over investigating these allegations, despite them making uncomfortable reading for some members of his own party. He has raised a lot of issues and concerns through the evidence that has been presented to Parliament, yet still no real concern or sense of urgency to get at the truth appears to be coming from official Labour channels. I don't know why that would be, but it's disappointing. We have rules surrounding elections and campaigns. When they are broken this must be addressed, not brushed under the carpet.

This is particularly true given the overlap with the US investigation into Trump. The true story surrounding Farage, Banks and the leave campaigns is likely to come out eventually at which point many people will wonder why our political leaders didn't show more interest at the time. Indeed, it seems Oakeshott was sitting on her e-mails waiting for us to leave the EU before using them in a book, which creates an unsettling sense of conspiracy among the political classes and the media to just keep a lid on everything until we're safely over the line and out of the EU.


PFY @Willow

Yes I've worried about that too. There is a feeling of "keeping the lid on" isn't there?

On the other hand, TBF, Corbyn does focus relentlessly on policy rather than process, so maybe his instincts are just to avoid this kind of stuff. He's right in a way. It should be the media's job to get to the bottom of this. And I mean more than just Carole Cadwalladr!

---------------------------------------------------

Cohen's batty, but also Paul, Labour cannot expect the press to do their job for them !

Perhaps there just aren't enough hours in the day to really master a new complex subject ?


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:19 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
@Willow

Yes I've worried about that too. There is a feeling of "keeping the lid on" isn't there?

On the other hand, TBF, Corbyn does focus relentlessly on policy rather than process, so maybe his instincts are just to avoid this kind of stuff. He's right in a way. It should be the media's job to get to the bottom of this. And I mean more than just Carole Cadwalladr!


I think the media has gone as far as it can. Labour may be waiting for the Electoral Commission findings, but Parliament will need to apply pressure if those findings are to be properly followed up, including anything passed onto police. So we'll wait and see.


Answer, perhaps, in 2023 ? :-)

The Electoral Commission is a 90 something percent waste of space .


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:20 am 
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frog222 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
The NHS money feels like a bribe.

It feels like an attempt to make the idiocy of Brexit seem like it has a purpose. It feels like an attempt to protect Tory ministers that supported the leave campaign from being accused of misleading the country. It feels like an attempt to counter the anti-Brexit feeling that is going to grow on the back of revelations of Leave.eu apparently colluding with Russians and Vote Leave breaking election spending rules.

FWIW one percentage point on VAT (the Tories favourite tax) is worth about £5bn. So a rise to 22.5% (as has been speculated in the past) won't be enough on its own.

Which, of course, wouldn't be necessary anyway if we hadn't cut corporation tax, which must be costing us at least £10bn a year by now.
As Gilsey said 9.18 "" She has no more shame than Gove or Johnson. Disgrace.""

She's learning how to do Fake News, Trump-style :-)
Protecting myself from these peoples' cynical conniving is energy I don't have for better things


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 12:00 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
@Willow

Yes I've worried about that too. There is a feeling of "keeping the lid on" isn't there?
---
(cJA edit)

Yes.


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 12:00 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
@Willow

Yes I've worried about that too. There is a feeling of "keeping the lid on" isn't there?

On the other hand, TBF, Corbyn does focus relentlessly on policy rather than process, so maybe his instincts are just to avoid this kind of stuff. He's right in a way. It should be the media's job to get to the bottom of this. And I mean more than just Carole Cadwalladr!


I think the media has gone as far as it can. Labour may be waiting for the Electoral Commission findings, but Parliament will need to apply pressure if those findings are to be properly followed up, including anything passed onto police. So we'll wait and see.


Answer, perhaps, in 2023 ? :-)

The Electoral Commission is a 90 something percent waste of space .


The Electoral Commission wasn't going to do anything until forced to by evidence from Cadwalladyr and legal action by the Good Law Project. They are, as you say, mostly a waste of space but having been forced to look they couldn't help but see and I believe Vote Leave may be about to be found guilty of breaking spending limits:

https://goodlawproject.org/the-electora ... e-the-law/

The right wing press will underplay any suggestion of wrongdoing in the leave camp. It will take MPs speaking up to get across how serious such breaches are for the integrity of our democracy.

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 12:31 pm 
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I am afraid the reality is the government now seems to have divided into contradicting power bases that cannot deliver collectively on assurances given to backbenchers when they seek them. This is not a good place to be, as it erodes trust. We have collectively to face up to the fact that in the two main political parties there are substantial disagreements on the best form Brexit should take.

- The government has split into contradicting power bases on Brexit
Dominic Grieve

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ower-bases
Somebody remind the author and Tory MP for Beaconsfield he is part of Tory government


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 12:47 pm 
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https://www.adass.org.uk/adass-responds ... nouncement


“It is deeply disappointing to see no further investment in social care in this settlement. As has been remarked before, putting money into the NHS without putting it into social care is like pouring water down a sink with no plug in. There is sufficient evidence to be clear that investing in health care delivers only a partial solution to better meeting the health and social care needs of many people in society. If we want to truly transform lives and reduce the pressures on hospitals, we must invest in supporting people at home"


Which includes benefits/allowances and evidentially introduced links/supplements for the purpose,now being shredded.I find the historical amnesia "frustrating"

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 12:50 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
Quote:
I am afraid the reality is the government now seems to have divided into contradicting power bases that cannot deliver collectively on assurances given to backbenchers when they seek them. This is not a good place to be, as it erodes trust. We have collectively to face up to the fact that in the two main political parties there are substantial disagreements on the best form Brexit should take.

- The government has split into contradicting power bases on Brexit
Dominic Grieve

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ower-bases
Somebody remind the author and Tory MP for Beaconsfield he is part of Tory government


Well, strictly speaking he isn't part of the *government*. Though I know what you were getting at ;)


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 12:52 pm 
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Tory MP Dominic Grieve won't do what's right
His role is sounding like he's responsible, serious, a good Tory


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Tory bastards getting away with their horseshit
Grieve disassociates himself while helping Theresa May's minority Tory government have MP numbers enough legitimately forming leadership
Is the UK's current government Tory or not?
Is Grieve Tory or not?


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 1:22 pm 
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https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... g-bad-news

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Look at their records, the manifestos they've flown under, their political party affiliation, their hobbies, their habits
Who do you reckon people generally trust more in government - Dominic Grieve or Jeremy Corbyn?
Trusting Grieve over Corbyn isn't wise or logical if you're not trust-funded but I'm unsurprised if people do
Think of Dave Cameron's Tory government 2015
That guy considered greater leadership material than Labour MPs?
Collectively our souls won't be bought but our minds can wander and that lack of attention is how bad mistakes happen


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 1:37 pm 
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looking back in sorrow at bad leadership chosen
we do it a lot, too often


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 1:43 pm 
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I think every UK Labour leader since the 1940's have been mostly good
that is, I'm unashamed of them
Tory party leadership is one disgrace after another


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 4:13 pm 
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I'm far from proud of that Blair fellow ....

Image


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 7:18 pm 
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https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/e ... es-nhs?amp
"Theresa May will struggle to find a way to keep her promises on the NHS"
Quote:
That is the real dividend not only of Brexit but decisions taken since the financial crisis: an economy that is likely too weak to bear significant tax rises anywhere , a Parliament that is unlikely to pass any tax rises, and an ideological aversion to higher borrowing that makes it difficult to fund spending through that route. Theresa May can promise more money for the NHS, but Philip Hammond may find it impossible to actually deliver it at his budget in the autumn.

So we shouldn't expect to see much increase this year (unless it's through cancelling planned tax cuts)?


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Or will any increase be funded in the same way as hinted at in march.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... tain-sees/
"The Chancellor gave a strong hint that austerity will be eased at the Budget in late autumn"
Quote:
hilip Hammond has signalled he is prepared to spend billions of pounds on hospitals and the military later this year after positive public finance figures pointed to “light at the end of the tunnel” following a decade of austerity.

(not sure how this was to be funded, but they must have already calculated it would have party support)


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:35 pm 
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So basically...

Tory government
"We know there's no Brexit dividend because we've accepted the OBR figures so therefore we're lying through our teeth about how the money for the NHS will be found. We've basically got a Schrödinger's Brexit Dividend"

The usual suspects
"We hate the NHS with a passion and want it broken up and the last thing we want is more money spent on it - especially if it's coming from more borrowing and increased taxes! But it's fulfilling that promise made on the back of an envelope...er...side of a bus, so it's all fine and it's shafting Labour and that's more important to us than anything."

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Quote:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... sprinklers
Glasgow School of Art: sprinklers had not been fitted after first fire

pretty depressing

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:52 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... emy-corbyn
The National Campaign Against Fees and Cuts (NCAFC) said it would join anti-Brexit demonstrations the National Union of Students (NUS) is organising this summer and autumn, and establish a “radical, leftwing, pro-migrant bloc”. The move is another sign of young people increasingly mobilising against the UK’s scheduled departure from the EU in March next year.

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Quote:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 03096.html

a child knocked over a valuable sculpture in a community centre

they don't look that bothered ...

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:15 pm 
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And about bloody time too...not that I ever watch it. I might though depending on who gets the gig.

https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/ ... 6501692416

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:23 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
And about bloody time too...not that I ever watch it. I might though depending on who gets the gig.

https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/ ... 6501692416

Eddie Mair would be good. James O'Brien would be hilarious.


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Someone on the Twitter thread suggested (jokingly, I trust) Nigel Farage!


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Or
Quote:
Leading internal candidates include the Newsnight presenters Emily Maitlis and Kirsty Wark, the Today programme hosts Nick Robinson and Mishal Husain, and Desert Island Discs’ Kirsty Young.

The BBC could choose to go for a more leftfield choice such as Victoria Derbyshire, whose morning news show has won a series of awards, or the 5Live presenter Emma Barnett, who received plaudits after standing in for Andrew Marr on his Sunday programme earlier this year.

:roll:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/ ... stion-time

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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:36 pm 
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Is there not another generation of
Dimblebys, ready to fill his shoes, step up to the plate & keep the flame of freedom burning?
What happens when the last Dimbleby leaves Broadcasting house, are they like ravens.
edited, for grammatical tweaks (sadly still nonsense, but I have some standards, even if low)


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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2018 9:47 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Someone on the Twitter thread suggested (jokingly, I trust) Nigel Farage!

Also Jeremy Vine.


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