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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 6:35 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 9:17 am 
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north-korea-still-secretly-enriching-uranium-say-us-officials

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... -officials

So diificult to define what brexit is, so I wonder if the bookies are making prices on it ?


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 10:25 am 
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Mary Kaldor —

“” We did not know what Brexit would mean when we voted in the referendum. “”

( Which makes us look rather … er …. silly ? )

jeremy-corbyn-brexit-latest-peoples-vote-single-market-customs-union-

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/je ... 22511.html

Marina on Danny Dyer— “” … at this stage in the Brexit U-bend, arguably the best we can hope for is a shit deal on services and a cheap giggle. Contrary to what half you lot told us, they can’t do us a bespoke/haute-couture/red-white-and-blue/money-spraying Brexit.“”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... it-eu-deal


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 11:02 am 
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Well if Corbyn's "team" think winning an election should have priority over a futile* attempt to "stop Brexit" (however "principled") then many Labour members and voters will agree I'm afraid.

(* this is the relevant word, if Labour had a way of halting this and keeping their voter coalition largely intact, does anybody think they wouldn't take it?)


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 11:20 am 
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For those VERY short of time, click at 30 secondes ---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... oXS2d0Hljo




Seeing what is at last happening on Hillsborough, will JackStraw and Co live long enough to have their collars felt ?

Some crap comments here, but overall a vindication for Craig, and well done Dominick Grieve and Co !

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... n/#respond


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 11:22 am 
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Recent revelations make it even more "interesting" that Straw's son was picked to run the 2016 Remain campaign.


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 11:28 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Well if Corbyn's "team" think winning an election should have priority over a futile* attempt to "stop Brexit" (however "principled") then many Labour members and voters will agree I'm afraid.

(* this is the relevant word, if Labour had a way of halting this and keeping their voter coalition largely intact, does anybody think they wouldn't take it?)

AK -- the Tories are obviously in a mess, but Labour are not very far behind , at all !

( For 'mess' read anarchy ? :-)

""Michael Gove RIPPED UP Theresa May's customs plan in a fit of frustration, adding to rumours of a split within the Tory party.

The Environment Secretary destroyed the customs partnership document in front of stunned colleagues during a meeting this week.""


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... e-12823136


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 1:54 pm 
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It's all a bit b*ll*x really isnt' it?
British politics.
We need proportional representation and multiple parties. I don't think it can currently be considered a democracy in any meaningful sense.

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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 1:59 pm 
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PR, multi-parties, all 'can' be equally bordelique !

No easy solutions in these times , when we've seen the old French parties almost disappearing .... .

26 here,.... but a bit of rain from monday !


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Yep, one thing I have always believed is that we ultimately get the politics (and politicians) we deserve. The problem is us, and so is the solution.


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 4:57 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Yep, one thing I have always believed is that we ultimately get the politics (and politicians) we deserve. The problem is us, and so is the solution.


That may be true in a healthy democracy with a free, independent press, but no one deserves a corrupt government and few are in a position to prevent it. In FPTP many people are stuck in a safe seat powerless to change anything. With a corrupt press, the agenda of foreign billionaire owners becomes the "will of the people". But the main reason I don't think we deserve what is happening right now is because when Theresa May went to the country in 2017 specifically asking for a mandate for her hard Brexit outside the single market she didn't get one, yet both government and opposition are determined to pursue one anyway. So much for democracy. Apparently some answers are more important to listen to than others.

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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 4:59 pm 
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I agree with many of your criticisms, but ultimately if (for example) enough people decide they want to believe the often fantastical stuff from our papers, that is down to them.


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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 6:07 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
I agree with many of your criticisms, but ultimately if (for example) enough people decide they want to believe the often fantastical stuff from our papers, that is down to them.


So people who want to leave the EU to protect UK overseas territories that operate as tax havens from scrutiny can lie and cheat, overspend, possibly collude with Russians to an end that endangers European nations, possibly use foreign money and possibly benefit from illegally harvested social media data to micro-target political ads that are not viewed and therefore approved by the electoral commission and that's ok because people who had no idea any of this was going on "allowed" themselves to be duped?

Brexit was not an informed choice.

Westminster insisted the Scottish Independence vote was an informed choice. They insisted on a detailed white paper from the Scottish government on how they would deliver it if there was a vote for independence before the referendum. Voters weren't offered the same informed choice in the EU referendum and as far as staying in or leaving the single market they aren't being offered a choice at all.

We deserve better than this.

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PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2018 10:21 pm 
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Lots of truths in this...but nothing some of us have been saying from the start

How the drive to ‘empower’ our schools created chaos in classrooms

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... classrooms



Quote:
Whitehall ends up with greater control over schools, while free sources of support dry up.

Roberts, now into her third headship, has always opted to work in schools that remain under local authority control. “It always seemed to me that the rhetoric around autonomy was unconvincing,” she says. “I never understood what we were trying to escape from. It is the accountability structure and progress tables that are the things that constrain our lives. That’s nothing to do with the governance structure that we have.”

Others involved in drawing up policy since 2010 warn that too much emphasis was placed on the benefits of giving schools more power. “There was always undue optimism among some of the advocates of academisation about the potential benefits in what in England was already quite an autonomous schools system,” says David Laws, the former education minister who now heads the Education Policy Institute.


Basically Gove and his acolytes both inside and outside of the DfE lied through their teeth about the very system that their own party had put together in the late 1980s.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 8:56 am 
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The New York Times is becoming interested in the Brexit connections to Mueller's Trump/Russia case and reveals something interesting in this article about Aaron Banks:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/29/worl ... 22mo8aWO7Z
Quote:
In Washington, the investigators for the special prosecutor, Robert S. Mueller III, and Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee have also obtained records of Mr. Banks’s communications, including some with Russian diplomats and about Russian business deals.

And they have taken a special interest in close ties Mr. Banks and other Brexit leaders built to the Trump campaign.

On Nov. 12, 2016, Mr. Banks met President-elect Trump in Trump Tower. Upon his return to London, Mr. Banks had another lunch with the Russian ambassador where they discussed the Trump visit.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 9:11 am 
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https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... rship.html

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Could the US become a democratic dictatorship?


Interesting read from Wren-Lewis.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 9:11 am 
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24 and threatening rain .

Uncle Bill Keegan is not happy --

corbyn-nowhere-as-brexit-crisis-looms

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... isis-looms

Otoh, who is, apart from Messrs Bannon, Tr**p, Putin, Volatility traders, and similar ?


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 9:24 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/06/could-us-become-democratic-dictatorship.html

Quote:
Could the US become a democratic dictatorship?


Interesting read from Wren-Lewis.


I have no doubt that Trump admires the likes of Erdogan and Orban, and is looking for ways to learn from them.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 9:53 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/06/could-us-become-democratic-dictatorship.html

Quote:
Could the US become a democratic dictatorship?


Interesting read from Wren-Lewis.


I have no doubt that Trump admires the likes of Erdogan and Orban, and is looking for ways to learn from them.


It is interesting to compare Hungary and Turkey, with one within the EU and one without. Can EU membership put a break on anti-democratic developments in Hungary or not? The structures of US democracy are equally being put to the test. In all these situations you are reliant on those with power maintaining democratic institutions above and beyond partisan loyalties. True patriotism, in other words, versus anti-immigrant nationalism. Which will win out?

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 9:53 am 
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Polly Polak


@PolakPolly
42m42 minutes ago
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#Brexit plan emerges from Chequers: cabinet to stop blaming each other for the impending disaster and stick to blaming the EU.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 10:46 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
Westminster insisted the Scottish Independence vote was an informed choice. They insisted on a detailed white paper from the Scottish government on how they would deliver it if there was a vote for independence before the referendum. Voters weren't offered the same informed choice in the EU referendum and as far as staying in or leaving the single market they aren't being offered a choice at all.


There is little difference between the Scottish "white paper" and the side of the Brexit bus - both were a pack of lies. (The former also included a list of over optimistic aspirations, much the same as the Brexitters subsequently put forward). Both the 'independence' and 'leave' arguments are based on the same "let's regain our sovereignty" mantra, despite never having lost it.

The big differences (imo) are the immigration "issue" - we don't have the same level of immigration up here (unless you count the English, as some hard line Nats do) and the fact that there was a two year run up to the independence referendum.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 11:09 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
I have no doubt that Trump admires the likes of Erdogan and Orban, and is looking for ways to learn from them.


It is interesting to compare Hungary and Turkey, with one within the EU and one without. Can EU membership put a break on anti-democratic developments in Hungary or not? The structures of US democracy are equally being put to the test. In all these situations you are reliant on those with power maintaining democratic institutions above and beyond partisan loyalties. True patriotism, in other words, versus anti-immigrant nationalism. Which will win out?


Has to be said that the EU institutions don't seem to have been an insuperable restraint on Orban's demagoguery thus far.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 11:13 am 
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Eric_WLothian wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Westminster insisted the Scottish Independence vote was an informed choice. They insisted on a detailed white paper from the Scottish government on how they would deliver it if there was a vote for independence before the referendum. Voters weren't offered the same informed choice in the EU referendum and as far as staying in or leaving the single market they aren't being offered a choice at all.


There is little difference between the Scottish "white paper" and the side of the Brexit bus - both were a pack of lies. (The former also included a list of over optimistic aspirations, much the same as the Brexitters subsequently put forward). Both the 'independence' and 'leave' arguments are based on the same "let's regain our sovereignty" mantra, despite never having lost it.

The big differences (imo) are the immigration "issue" - we don't have the same level of immigration up here (unless you count the English, as some hard line Nats do) and the fact that there was a two year run up to the independence referendum.


Yes, two years instead of 6 months of discussing the merits of the case was a very important differsnce. And I think a government plan for independence that can be scrutinised is very different from leave campaigners suggesting what someone else might do it we leave.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 11:14 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
I have no doubt that Trump admires the likes of Erdogan and Orban, and is looking for ways to learn from them.


It is interesting to compare Hungary and Turkey, with one within the EU and one without. Can EU membership put a break on anti-democratic developments in Hungary or not? The structures of US democracy are equally being put to the test. In all these situations you are reliant on those with power maintaining democratic institutions above and beyond partisan loyalties. True patriotism, in other words, versus anti-immigrant nationalism. Which will win out?


Has to be said that the EU institutions don't seem to have been an insuperable restraint on Orban's demagoguery thus far.


This is true and why it bears watching, along with Poland.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 12:47 pm 
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It is interesting to compare Hungary and Turkey, with one within the EU and one without. Can EU membership put a break on anti-democratic developments in Hungary or not? The structures of US democracy are equally being put to the test. In all these situations you are reliant on those with power maintaining democratic institutions above and beyond partisan loyalties. True patriotism, in other words, versus anti-immigrant nationalism. Which will win out?[/quote]

Has to be said that the EU institutions don't seem to have been an insuperable restraint on Orban's demagoguery thus far.[/quote]

This is true and why it bears watching, along with Poland.[/quote]

Rather different nearly twenty years ago --

In 1999, after receiving 27 per cent of the vote in national elections, Haider's Freedom party was included in national government, earning Austria months of diplomatic isolation within the European Union. However, Haider, who always preferred the role of maverick populist outside the mainstream than the grit of day-to-day politics, ceded leadership of his party to a deputy. 'When it actually came to the final and boldest step into real power, his courage failed him,' said Misik. 'He was a complex personality, eccentric and borderline.'

A multi-millionaire following the death of a rich landowner uncle who bequeathed him a huge estate controversially bought from an Italian Jew forced to flee Austria in 1940, Haider, always very popular in his home province of Carinthia, had toned down his rhetoric in recent years - though recent election posters in the town of Graz featured an immigrant beggar woman and the title 'Clean Up Graz'


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/ ... hefarright


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Nicely done...


Quote:
Leonardo Carella
‏@leonardocarella
56m
56 minutes ago
More

Worst British Ministers of the Crown (1945-2018):
20. You
19. Can't
18. Compare
17. Ministers'
16. Records
15. Across
14. Departments
13. And
12. Over
11. Time
10. They
9. Had
8. To
7. Face
6. Wildly
5. Different
4. Circumstances
3. And
2. Briefs
1. Chris Grayling


:D

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 2:45 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Yep, one thing I have always believed is that we ultimately get the politics (and politicians) we deserve. The problem is us, and so is the solution.
Bad leadership can't be the fault of people unable to make bad leaders stop what they're doing. Government's disastrous stewardship and its failure safeguarding interests of most people and nation isn't our fault.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Good-afternoon, everyone


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
---
...you are reliant on those with power maintaining democratic institutions above and beyond partisan loyalties. True patriotism, in other words, versus anti-immigrant nationalism. Which will win out?
(cJA edit)
I don't know. How long have ordinary people been enfranchised historically? I'm mostly referring to the US, UK and other Western European nations. Have some concessions been made to the multitudes with no guarantee rights will continue? History teaches civilisations come to an end. Are we experiencing an ending? I don't know.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Street homeless very much in evidence in Leamington,having" intervened" between a sneering "I've got a house" twatface cunt and five/six of his equally obnoxious mates baiting of a middle aged woman in take me on sunshine mode,neice of said woman said it had the biggest number in the West Midlands and had set up a charity called "helping hands"


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 3:21 pm 
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"West Midlands police are on the lookout for a five foot nothing bespectled middle aged man for threatening behaviour"


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Quote:
Peter Firmin dies aged 89

Man behind popular characters such as the Clangers and Basil Brush dies after short illness (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/jul/01/bagpuss-clangers-basil-brush-creator-peter-firmin-dies-aged-89


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 3:24 pm 
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It was ####ing ####ing hot,not helped by 45 min delay,so us slow coaches get the worst of it.At least the equal of the hottest I've experienced.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 3:26 pm 
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HindleA wrote:
It was ####ing ####ing hot,not helped by 45 min delay,so us slow coaches get the worst of it.At least the equal of the hottest I've experienced.

Secure ice cream provisions immediately


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Hosepipes en route were very much welcome,I was in danger of sweating which won't really do and the breaking of one of my golden rules.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
---
...I don't think we deserve what is happening right now is because when Theresa May went to the country in 2017 specifically asking for a mandate for her hard Brexit outside the single market she didn't get one, yet both government and opposition are determined to pursue one anyway. So much for democracy. Apparently some answers are more important to listen to than others.
(cJA edit)
Government engaging in risky behaviour. 'Tory Brexit' legitimacy is questionable. Negative fallout from Brexit won't be isolated regardless of how they're envisioning potential repercussions.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 3:56 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
---
...I don't think we deserve what is happening right now is because when Theresa May went to the country in 2017 specifically asking for a mandate for her hard Brexit outside the single market she didn't get one, yet both government and opposition are determined to pursue one anyway. So much for democracy. Apparently some answers are more important to listen to than others.
(cJA edit)
Government engaging in risky behaviour. 'Tory Brexit' legitimacy is questionable. Negative fallout from Brexit won't be isolated regardless of how they're envisioning potential repercussions.
My post the other day wondering what makes government seemingly oblivious and acting as though something will turn up justifying their madness. What reason can they have carrying on ignoring reality? Other nations aren't under Tory control.


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 4:05 pm 
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Business secretary says 'any reasonable person would have to be guided by the facts and the evidence'
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 25371.html

Wouldn't they just.

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HindleA wrote:
It was ####ing ####ing hot,not helped by 45 min delay,so us slow coaches get the worst of it.At least the equal of the hottest I've experienced.


Good grief, you didn't run in this heat?!

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Dry heat here, in the West Midlands, wonderful


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 7:33 pm 
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Very humid here in Somerset. I bought a crocosmia plant yesterday to fill a gap in the front garden left by a lavetara that died, but I had to get the lavetara stump out before I could plant it so was waiting for the 'cool' of the evening but that never really came so it was a case of giving up on dignity and getting on with it. I hope the neighbours enjoyed the spectacle of me wrestling a plant stump out of the ground with sweat pouring off the end of my nose. I got it out though, so I guess it was worth it.

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Aaargh #FBPE trolls :evil:


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 9:26 pm 
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Right, got that out of my system.

Thanks for all the great posts on here. It's a haven, to coin a phrase ;-)


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 9:36 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Aaargh #FBPE trolls :evil:

just ignore them


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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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