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 Post subject: Tuesday 17th July 2018
PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 5:34 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 7:10 am 
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Morning all.

Vote Leave: Brexit campaign 'broke electoral law' in referendum

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992

Quote:
he investigation found "significant evidence of joint working" between the group and another organisation - BeLeave - leading to it exceeding its spending limit by almost £500,000.

Vote Leave also returned an "incomplete and inaccurate spending report", with almost £234,501 reported incorrectly, and invoices missing for £12,849.99 of spending, the watchdog said.

BeLeave founder Darren Grimes has also been fined and referred to the police for breaking the group's spending limit by more than £665,000 and wrongly reporting the spending as his own.

Veterans for Britain were also found to have inaccurately reported a donation it received from Vote Leave and has been fined £250.


Excellent.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 7:17 am 
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Quite.


Quote:
South-West Head
‏@Southwest_head
10h
10 hours ago


More
Following MPs lead, we’ve decided we can’t be arsed to finish the school year either, so we finish for the summer after playtime tomorrow.


All being well it'll be voted down and make whoever thought this was a good idea look foolish.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:48 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Quite.


Quote:
South-West Head
‏@Southwest_head
10h
10 hours ago


More
Following MPs lead, we’ve decided we can’t be arsed to finish the school year either, so we finish for the summer after playtime tomorrow.


All being well it'll be voted down and make whoever thought this was a good idea look foolish.


No doubt it would be too much to expect it to be classed as 'unpaid leave'.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 9:21 am 
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Only 20°, and breezy . Brrrr.

long_reads/brexit-eu-theresa-may-economy-industrial-strategy-finance-labour

A convincing argument for cancelling the brexit rubbish, and then sorting out the over financialisation of the economy. Example of that —

“”The owner of a medium-sized manufacturing business gave me a striking example of this recently. His high-street bank was initially supportive when he requested a loan for new manufacturing equipment, which would significantly boost productivity. Once the bank realised that the equipment would not be something they could sell on should he go bankrupt, their interest drained away entirely. It was willing to lend based on liquidation value, but was not willing to take a risk on a living business.“”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long ... 49041.html


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 9:37 am 
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frog222 wrote:
Only 20°, and breezy . Brrrr.

long_reads/brexit-eu-theresa-may-economy-industrial-strategy-finance-labour

A convincing argument for cancelling the brexit rubbish, and then sorting out the over financialisation of the economy. Example of that —

“”The owner of a medium-sized manufacturing business gave me a striking example of this recently. His high-street bank was initially supportive when he requested a loan for new manufacturing equipment, which would significantly boost productivity. Once the bank realised that the equipment would not be something they could sell on should he go bankrupt, their interest drained away entirely. It was willing to lend based on liquidation value, but was not willing to take a risk on a living business.“”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long ... 49041.html

Thought provoking post. Thanks.

There's a desperate need for new corporate law isn't there?

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that has been going on too long (Thatcher? Earlier?). When I think of what we've lost with the cooperative movements, the building societies etc. Things that brilliant, determined folk in Yorkshire, and elsewhere, worked so hard to construct. It makes me really angry.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 9:44 am 
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Ed Miliband was interested in regional banks similar to Germany.

Peer to peer lending is filling the gap in the meanwhile (think Dave Fishwick and his "Bank of Dave") but we need a proper government initiative.

Perhaps when the Tory spivs have finished destroying our economy with their hard Brexit they'll give it some thought...

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 10:01 am 
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@Frog222

Not to mention you may have just solved the UK's productivity puzzle.

It's not that firms don't want to invest in equipment that would raise productivity, it's because all our banks are in the business of predatory capitalism and asset stripping rather than long term investment in the real economy.

It's a choice our government makes via what it chooses to regulate and how. Just as they choose to give visas to very rich people with no links to the country while trying to deport British citizens from the old Commonwealth because they don't have paperwork for every year they've lived here. A natural bias towards spivs by our spivs in government.

Never before have I been so aware of the similarities between our country and Italy and oh, what a surprise, the one other EU country that is teetering on following us over the edge into ex-EU oblivion is one that is most known for having had a tax fraudster for a Prime Minister.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 10:30 am 
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So it appears, according to LibDem whips no less, that Cable and Farron missed last night's votes because "they weren't expected to be so close".

Not terribly impressive that, all told.......


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 10:35 am 
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Good-morning, everyone


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:18 am 
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https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/0 ... l?spref=tw

Quote:
Trump and Brexit

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:33 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/07/trump-and-brexit.html?spref=tw

Quote:
Trump and Brexit

I didn't foresee the Maybot doing a U-turn on the ERG amendments either !


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:34 am 
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Afternoon.

Apparently the Skills minister Anne Milton told a committee that she'd advise her kids not to touch T Levsls in the first year.

Not sure that's the message she ought to be sending out really.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:44 am 
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Quote:
Labour to back amendment tabled by rebel Tories on customs union
As my colleague Pippa Crerar reports, Labour has decided that it will back the new amendment tabled by pro-European Tories Stephen Hammond and Nicky Morgan on a customs union being debated this afternoon.


Opportunity for Cable and Farron to redeem themselves. We're getting into last chance saloon here. Time for Tory rebels to step up or they'll run out of chances.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:52 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
Quote:
Labour to back amendment tabled by rebel Tories on customs union
As my colleague Pippa Crerar reports, Labour has decided that it will back the new amendment tabled by pro-European Tories Stephen Hammond and Nicky Morgan on a customs union being debated this afternoon.


Opportunity for Cable and Farron to redeem themselves. We're getting into last chance saloon here. Time for Tory rebels to step up or they'll run out of chances.


They do seem to be in the mood to after what happened yesterday, tbh.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 1:22 pm 
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Telegraph attempting to polish a Trump:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegr ... rexit/amp/
"Theresa May could sue the EU to get a better Brexit deal just like Trump said - and here's how"

Behind paywall but gives 2 ways,
first, is because of phasing of negotiations, art.50 says exit agreement should take into account, future relationship, but EU timetable was to discuss bill, border and exit terms first
- seeing as we agreed to this, can't see how suing would work.
second is if, once we've left, EU actions towards us break world trading organisation rules, seems a bit tenuos seeing as we'd already have left by this stage & Trump seems to have suggested suing instead of negotiating, not after.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Ah, its their "premium" content again :D


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 1:40 pm 
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IIRC Martin Howe (who I seem to recall not being an expert in EU law) admits that yes they could sue...but would probably lose.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:03 pm 
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I think something has shifted
Hopefully, it's for the better


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:15 pm 
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From the G live blog:

Quote:
Dr Sarah Wollaston, the Conservative chair of the Commons health committee and the Commons liaison committee, said the referendum should be re-run. She said:

We are talking about deliberate cheating, and this money going to a firm which used highly sophisticated targeted, Facebook advertising. And in a quote since removed from the AggregateIQ website, Vote Leave campaign director Dominic Cummings says, ‘We couldn’t have done it without them.’ Dominic Cummings, who will not appear before select committees, having claimed during the campaign that he wanted to restore the sovereignty of parliament, runs away from accountability himself.

Consequences must follow. We cannot have confidence that this referendum was secure and it should be re-run.


Sarah Wollaston does well here, reminding people what the money Vote Leave wasn't supposed to spend was spent on - Aggregate IQ online activity. AIQ being a subsidiary of Cambridge Analytica, the company that was found guilty of using Facebook data illegally. This isn't just about overspending, it's about illegal co-ordination of the Leave campaigns and as such encompasses the whole of the campaign to leave the EU. How did all this disparate campaigns just happen to decide to use AIQ for their digital campaigning, a firm with no online presence before the EU referendum campaign. They're not exactly in the yellow pages!

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Quote:
"I’m not sure he is right to say that there is government business to be done in the Commons early next week. Much of the parliamentary timetable has been very light this year (the government is worried about defeats), and nothing important has been publicly scheduled for Monday and Tuesday next week."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 6cea74ae29
just stop it right there, please
Government doesn't get to decide it does leadership when it's convenient for themselves
Responsibly representing nation and people as an MP is like working in an A&E, policing communities, fighting fires, saving lives and homes from destruction during floods, for example
Government wandering off early on holidays while lives, businesses, families and nation get put on hold all because minority Tory disaster leadership is feeling insecure?
Consider consequences of government abandoning their House leaving the UK where it's at during this time-critical juncture
No, we can't hold


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
---
Sarah Wollaston does well here, reminding people what the money Vote Leave wasn't supposed to spend was spent on - Aggregate IQ online activity. AIQ being a subsidiary of Cambridge Analytica, the company that was found guilty of using Facebook data illegally. This isn't just about overspending, it's about illegal co-ordination of the Leave campaigns and as such encompasses the whole of the campaign to leave the EU. How did all this disparate campaigns just happen to decide to use AIQ for their digital campaigning, a firm with no online presence before the EU referendum campaign. They're not exactly in the yellow pages!
(cJA edit)
Quite.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:49 pm 
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They were lightweights in 2010
They're worthless leadership in 2018
They don't know what they're doing


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:51 pm 
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government don't care for anyone but themselves


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:04 pm 
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https://www.lgcplus.com/services/health ... 55.article


Social care green paper to include younger adults


The social care green paper is now set to include proposals for younger adults, after the government previously said it would focus solely on support for older people,


Zero point otherwise.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:09 pm 
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"Difficult?".To change the narrative,contrived binaryisms,deliberate divisiveness,historical amnesia,ignoring of array of purposes etc,certainly.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:17 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Afternoon.

Apparently the Skills minister Anne Milton told a committee that she'd advise her kids not to touch T Levsls in the first year.

Not sure that's the message she ought to be sending out really.


The precursors to these - the updated versions of BTECs and so on - have been regularly on the move over the first cohorts taking them. They started with mandatory exam units that had to be passed, then changed that to you could just fail them and still pass the course overall (they introduced a rather patronising 'N for nearly' grade) and then set the threshold for the N grade at about half of the pass mark. The pass standard is already low - you can get an N for about 20% in an exam in most of the courses I've seen.

My more specific experiences are just in one subject but they are fairly radically rewriting units and rebalancing assessment tasks in lots of those - usually in pretty sensible ways, I think.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:33 pm 
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#I originally got the article.D of H bod said it was "difficult".

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:36 pm 
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Image

and some trumpology --

https://youtu.be/ZHXookUQFCA?t=73



"The final key to the way I promote is bravado.

I play to peoples’ fantasies.

I call it truthful hyperbole . “


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:48 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
I think something has shifted
Hopefully, it's for the better


The last few weeks do feel a bit like a dam bursting.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:55 pm 
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https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... 18#history


Research and analysis

Conversion of Support for Mortgage Interest (SMI) from a benefit into a loan, 2018


Since the March 2018 release, a technical issue has been corrected on the management information system used to produce the figures. The issue resulted in around 13% of claimants’ records being moved to a new loans system ahead of the introduction of the SMI loan scheme on 6 April and meant they were missing from the earlier figures published in March.

Not a scooby doo

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... rs#history


Guidance

Personal Independence Payment (PIP) assessment guide for assessment providers

July 2018
Part 1 - added section 1.5.2. Part 2 - the term 'anxious' changed to 'panicked' in the illustrative example for descriptor B in activity 11 'planning and following journeys'.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 4:22 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/07/trump-and-brexit.html?spref=tw

Quote:
Trump and Brexit

I didn't foresee the Maybot doing a U-turn on the ERG amendments either !


Don't worry, there are plenty more u-turns to come I reckon.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 4:47 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
I think something has shifted
Hopefully, it's for the better


The last few weeks do feel a bit like a dam bursting.

As many here predicted.

The real issue now is the "hopefully it's for the better". It's a huge challenge for Labour to lead that. I guess we'll see whether the Corbyn team are a flash in the pan or something more substantial.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 4:54 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
I think something has shifted
Hopefully, it's for the better


The last few weeks do feel a bit like a dam bursting.

As many here predicted.

The real issue now is the "hopefully it's for the better". It's a huge challenge for Labour to lead that. I guess we'll see whether the Corbyn team are a flash in the pan or something more substantial.


Fair comment, I am cautiously optimistic.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 4:59 pm 
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I see the toys are being thrown out of very many prams on the anti-Semitism issue.

From what I can gather the issue is not the IHRA definition itself - which is all of 2 sentences! - but the examples of what might constitute anti-Semitism which follows.

I found this interesting - a QC's opinion written last year on the IHRA defintion and examples.

http://freespeechonisrael.org.uk/ihra-o ... 0Jbmb.dpbs

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 5:08 pm 
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https://twitter.com/patrick_kidd/status ... 5692157952

Patrick Kidd

@patrick_kidd
Chief whip trying to take Nicky Morgan and Sarah Wollaston out for a chat. They tell him to sod off with only three minutes left in debate

6:57 PM - Jul 17, 2018

Whoops !


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 6:02 pm 
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Break: Govt defeat a Tory rebellion to enforce membership of an EU customs union as a backstop, 307 v 301. Just 3 MPs in it, very close indeed.

Listening to FiveLive earlier (fukkinkrikkit on LW) some person callled the ref result a solid 4% win, when of course it only needed a little under 2% to vote the other way for a draw .


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Some mistake, hopefully :o


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Oh look - the roll back...


Quote:
Bloomberg

Verified account

@business
20m
20 minutes ago


More
BREAKING: Trump says he accepts the intelligence conclusion that Russia meddled in 2016 election https://bloom.bg/2L0zcjq


:D

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Quote:
Angela Rayner

Verified account

@AngelaRayner
Following
Following @AngelaRayner

More
Tories drop daft idea to give MPs an extended holiday. However they only withdrew it after hapless PM won a narrow vote on the customs union. Now she can linger on through the summer as the country suffers in a leaderless malaise. The country run in the interests of Tory party
8:03 PM - 17 Jul 2018


The fact that they even suggested it is enough.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 7:13 pm 
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Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 7:48 pm 
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Yes, this one was a belter...

Image

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:03 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Yes, this one was a belter...

Image


SO THERE !

https://twitter.com/joswinson/status/10 ... 0115946498


Jo Swinson

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Replying to @joswinson
Don't try any nonsense about a mistake - this is calculated, deliberate breaking of trust by govt whips @JulianSmithUK to win at all costs. Brandon abstained in afternoon divisions, but voted in the two crunch votes after 6pm. There's a word for it - cheating.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:08 pm 
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This is very grim/stupid indeed

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EXCLUSIVE: Jeremy Corbyn was told to his face 'you're a fucking anti-semite and a racist' by a Jewish Labour MP tonight. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 3bfe020?dh

9:52 PM - Jul 17, 2018


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Tim Montgomerie maintains his position as someone who thinks that he is very clever but is actually quite dim...

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Tim Montgomerie

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Fellow Leavers, the European, civil service, legal and corporate establishments won election after election in UK for four decades but in June 2016 they lost a referendum. It’s why their fightback is so ferocious. We mustn’t be exhausted. If they win now, change may never come.
2:27 PM - 17 Jul 2018


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:19 pm 
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Ten local council byelections last week:

East Dorset DC - Tory hold, beating Labour in a straight fight by almost exactly 3 to 1 in a ward where two Tories were returned unopposed in the only previous election on these boundaries in 2015. The main interest here, in fact, is that this may be the final by-election in this council before it is subsumed into a new Dorset unitary authority next year, after plans to restructure local government in the county got the ministerial go-ahead (despite some vocal local opposition)

Hartlepool - Tory hold, though they were run quite close in this normally safe ward which returned three members for them in the 2012 all-out elections and has comfortably re-elected them since - a drop of double figures to 45 per cent for the Tories whilst the Indies doubled their share from earlier this year and are now less than 10 points behind; they seem to have taken some of the latent UKIP support here after that party finished second in all elections from 2012 to 2016 before absenting themselves in May. Labour down a bit to 12%, double that of the Greens who were almost unchanged.

Barnsley - Labour hold, though their share dropped 10 points from earlier this year to under half the vote. The striking thing here was a good second, with over a quarter of the vote, for a candidate of the Democrats and Veterans, one of literally dozens of the splinters from UKIP down the years. Oddly enough, this is a ward that has never had an actual UKIP candidate - Independents (later calling themselves the Barnsley Independent Group) won all 3 seats here in the 2004 all-out elections and then won the next few elections comfortably. Labour started winning here again from 2010, but BIG held on in 2014 and only just lost in 2016 - a last hurrah before the group finally disintegrated. Much of their former vote seems to have gone to the runner-up, though their candidate was quite well known locally so this might not all be a vote for hard right politics as such. Tories third down slightly, not far ahead of the LibDems whose 10% was modestly up on May. Yorkshire Party on 4%, double that of the last placed BNP who used to poll quite respectably here back in the Noughties.

Rutland - Independent gain from Tory, originally reported as by a single vote over the LibDems - but in fact there was a *tie* and the Returning Officer (as is customary in these situations) had to break the deadlock. The "winner" actually got a shade under 30%, meaning both seats here are now Independent after it split 1Ind/1C three years ago. There was a similar split in 2011, leaving 2007 as the only recent election here that returned 2 Tories as back in 2003 the split was 1C/1LD - this was easily the closest (and you can't get any closer, I suppose) that the LibDems have been since then. Tories weren't far behind in third, whilst Labour got 13% in their first outing here this millennium.

Elmbridge DC - Tory hold of a very safe ward with over 70% of the vote; it returned three Tory councillors by a landslide in the 2016 all-out elections and they took close to 80% this May, so this was a modest decrease even if nothing to cause them sleepless nights. LibDems up by about 10 points to over a quarter of the vote whilst UKIP got 2% which was little changed on earlier this year (and well down on two years ago) Recent polls have shown a bit of a kipper revival - one point of interest in the next few weeks is if this shows up in local results at all (and indeed, if they start fielding more candidates again)

Norfolk CC - Tory hold of a safe division (save for a scare from UKIP come their 2013 high water mark, which makes it more striking they never fielded a candidate here before or since) though their 65% of the vote, though still impressive, was down from well over 70% last year. Labour almost doubled their score to 23% - their best showing here since 2005 - overtaking the LibDems who came second a year ago but dipped slightly now and are still some way short of their 2005 showing.

Lewes DC - Tory hold in a ward which has returned two councillors for them reliably in every election since 2003, though the fact the top placed LibDem last time was reasonably close meant their 5% increase to over half the vote was a better showing than some predicted - it helps maybe that this is the rural north of the council rather than the "Greater Brighton" coastal area that is steadily moving away from them on both sides of that conurbation. LibDems also had an increase, whilst Labour on almost exactly 10% (a similar share to their previous 2011 showing) went ahead of the Greens who saw their share more than halved.

Darlington - Labour hold with over half the vote and an increase of around 10 points on 2015, which if nothing else contrasts to some unimpressive results for the party on this unitary authority in recent previous by-elections. That was the first election on these boundaries, which saw three Labour councillors returned in this ward but with a Tory candidate not that far behind - but they dipped to the low 20s now meaning they were beaten by over 2 to 1. LibDems dropped to under 10%, not far ahead of an Independent who comfortably beat a candidate from another UKIP offshoot, the unambiguously far-right For Britain party. Greens last with 3%, barely one sixth of their showing three years ago.

Waveney DC - two contests here with strikingly contrasting results; the first was in a ward which Independents won in 2004 after it split 1C/1Ind in the 2002 all-outs but has since become safe Tory with them easily taking both seats in the most recent 2015 election - but now the LibDems came from literally nowhere (they haven't even stood a candidate here this millennium) to storm to an extraordinary victory with over 70% of the vote. As with other such results in the past, local issues (as is strikingly frequently the case, planning) were behind this extraordinary volte-face which crushed all opposition in its wake - Tories went down from half the vote last time to barely 1 in 5 now, Labour lost well over half its share three years ago whilst UKIP dropped from double figures then to just 1% now. The other vacancy, however, saw Labour's recent woes here continue as they dropped another marginal ward to the Tories (following a similar result on this council last year) and whilst the latter won here in 2004 and have remained competitive in most elections since, this points to a local malaise which was also borne out by Labour's strikingly poor result here in last year's GE. Labour wasn't even down by that much this time and they still got 40%, but an increase of nearly 10 points for the Tories was enough to tip the balance and even a non-negligible 8% for UKIP (after they had sat 2015 out) couldn't thwart them. Greens more than halved to 4%, but that was still enough for them to overtake the LibDems who dropped seven points to 3% - a notably poor result for them by recent standards.

Six contests this week.


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Wow. they really were desperate!


https://twitter.com/joswinson/status/10 ... 9344219137

Take a look at the texts - Brandon Lewis breaking pairing arrangements. What an utter shit.

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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Big slob walks in front of HM .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNmnPbzVKPY



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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 9:00 pm 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
Wow. they really were desperate!


https://twitter.com/joswinson/status/10 ... 9344219137

Take a look at the texts - Brandon Lewis breaking pairing arrangements. What an utter shit.


Scrolling down that twitter thread, there's a link to a petition that's attracting quite a lot of signatures:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/223729

(Rescind Art.50 if Vote Leave has broken Electoral Laws regarding 2016 referendum)


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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 9:17 pm 
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More afterthoughts on the American Dream

MGM Resorts sues more than 1,000 victims of Las Vegas shooting
Quote:
MGM Resorts International filed suit in Nevada and California this week against victims of the 2017 mass shooting – the deadliest in US history. The lawsuit argues that MGM cannot be held responsible for deaths, injuries, or other damages stemming from the shooting, and says all claims against the company “must be dismissed”, according to local reports.


They go on to say that they're only thinking of the victims of the shootings - years of litigation clearly would not be in their best interests.

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