Wednesday 19th September 2018
Posted: Wed 19 Sep, 2018 7:03 am
Morning all.
Has not gone down well with either Momentum or centrist MPs, apparently, according to the G.National Structures: Leadership Elections
The last democracy review draft put forward the ‘10-plus’ model (10% of the PLP/EPLP; or 10% of Constituency Labour Parties plus 5% of PLP/EPLP; 0r 10% of affiliated trade unions plus 5% of PLP/EPLP) for nominations in leadership elections. That was similar to Momentum’s ‘10-10-10’ recommendation. But a new suggestion would see an “and” criteria, requiring 5% of CLPs, and three affiliates (at least two unions), and 10% of PLP/EPLP. The same would go for deputy leadership contests.
I'm really struggling with this idea. If Labour rejects May's withdrawal deal (assuming she gets one) how can they ensure this is followed by a general election rather than, say, May being deposed as leader and replaced by a Brexiter willing to take us out with no deal?Moment of truth: Labour's fraught path to MPs' crucial Brexit vote.......
.......Privately, some Labour MPs believe the six tests were set up as a figleaf to allow the party to reject just about any deal as a “Tory Brexit”, in the hope of triggering a general election and catapulting Corbyn into Downing Street.
Yes, this appears classic "trying to please everybody and actually satisfying nobody" territory.Willow904 wrote:https://labourlist.org/2018/09/revealed ... proposals/
Has not gone down well with either Momentum or centrist MPs, apparently, according to the G.National Structures: Leadership Elections
The last democracy review draft put forward the ‘10-plus’ model (10% of the PLP/EPLP; or 10% of Constituency Labour Parties plus 5% of PLP/EPLP; 0r 10% of affiliated trade unions plus 5% of PLP/EPLP) for nominations in leadership elections. That was similar to Momentum’s ‘10-10-10’ recommendation. But a new suggestion would see an “and” criteria, requiring 5% of CLPs, and three affiliates (at least two unions), and 10% of PLP/EPLP. The same would go for deputy leadership contests.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... for-a-year" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
We come back to the issue of the European Parliament elections in May 2019 which would be obliged to take part in if we were still members of the EU then. I wonder, again, if the point will come when the EU will invite us to withdraw the article 50 notice and come back when we think we're ready rather than allow us to extend the notice period. The problem with inviting or allowing us to sit out elections we should be taking part in is it's starting to create the kind of exceptions that we're sniffing around for.Willow904 wrote:
This is an interesting thread that shows how Parliament may have more options when presented with a Brexit agreement than May's assertion of "my way or bust". It's based on the idea that MPs will have an opportunity to amend a withdrawal agreement placed before them for approval. They won't be able to change it, but if the soft Brexit bloc within parliament were able to work together, they could lay down a marker on what our future relationship will be:
And the party's deputy leader has some influence in certain unions still.Willow904 wrote:I read it as a trade unionist seeking to regain some influence on the nomination and selection process for the Labour leadership for unions, who saw their input reduced in previous reforms and have been overshadowed of late by the Momentum movement.
Even if true, does it even matter?AnatolyKasparov wrote:And the party's deputy leader has some influence in certain unions still.Willow904 wrote:I read it as a trade unionist seeking to regain some influence on the nomination and selection process for the Labour leadership for unions, who saw their input reduced in previous reforms and have been overshadowed of late by the Momentum movement.
I've seen lot of comments from apparently well-informed people to the effect that, compared to the other conundrums around Brexit, EP elections are a minor glitch and not likely to be a deal-breaker. UK would hold the elections and it would be agreed that the MEPs terms would finish when we left.adam wrote:.
We come back to the issue of the European Parliament elections in May 2019 which would be obliged to take part in if we were still members of the EU then. .
That's interesting -I suspect May would be desperate to avoid that happening for fear that a slate of explicitly anti-leave MEPs were elected - in a much less predictable multi-member constituency election - as could happen...gilsey wrote:I've seen lot of comments from apparently well-informed people to the effect that, compared to the other conundrums around Brexit, EP elections are a minor glitch and not likely to be a deal-breaker. UK would hold the elections and it would be agreed that the MEPs terms would finish when we left.adam wrote:.
We come back to the issue of the European Parliament elections in May 2019 which would be obliged to take part in if we were still members of the EU then. .
I think that's partly right, GE could depend on 'sensible' tories refusing the whip if a Brexiter becomes PM, which some have said they will, but Grieve's past behaviour doesn't give us much confidence in that.Willow904 wrote:https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true
I'm really struggling with this idea. If Labour rejects May's withdrawal deal (assuming she gets one) how can they ensure this is followed by a general election rather than, say, May being deposed as leader and replaced by a Brexiter willing to take us out with no deal?Moment of truth: Labour's fraught path to MPs' crucial Brexit vote.......
.......Privately, some Labour MPs believe the six tests were set up as a figleaf to allow the party to reject just about any deal as a “Tory Brexit”, in the hope of triggering a general election and catapulting Corbyn into Downing Street.
This was the whole significance of Dominic Grieve folding over the meaningful vote. The meaningful vote amendments were about ensuring parliament got to decide what happens if a withdrawal agreement is rejected. Without it, the executive gets to decide what happens and if May is defeated that could mean a new PM with an unprecedented degree of power conferred via the withdrawal bill. At which point Labour would be relying on Tory MPs voting no confidence in a Tory government and voting for an election they will most likely lose.
Risking a no deal Brexit for the possibility of a GE (which it cannot be guaranteed Labour will win) against accepting a withdrawal agreement that maintains cordial relations with the EU and secures a two year transition period?
If I were an MP I'm not sure it's a gamble I could live with, especially as any deal the EU is happy with is unlikely to be objectionable and will certainly be considerably better than leaving with no deal at all.
There are so many things May is desperate to avoid, she's boxed in a hell of her own making.adam wrote:That's interesting -I suspect May would be desperate to avoid that happening for fear that a slate of explicitly anti-leave MEPs were elected - in a much less predictable multi-member constituency election - as could happen...gilsey wrote:I've seen lot of comments from apparently well-informed people to the effect that, compared to the other conundrums around Brexit, EP elections are a minor glitch and not likely to be a deal-breaker. UK would hold the elections and it would be agreed that the MEPs terms would finish when we left.adam wrote:.
We come back to the issue of the European Parliament elections in May 2019 which would be obliged to take part in if we were still members of the EU then. .
I find myself unable to get on board with the people's vote thing, I have to admit. We've already created a mess by asking the public a complicated question they didn't understand (and I'm not being elitist by saying that, I include myself as one of the people who knew very little about the details of our relationship with the EU before the referendum - customs unions, Eurotom and all of that). And, more importantly, it didn't settle anything. We were in with half the population wanting out and in a few months time we will be out with half the population wanting in. I don't see how another referendum will end up any differently, people are still unlikely to fully understand the implications of what they're voting for and we're still likely to end up with a close result that provides no real consensus going forward.gilsey wrote:I usually turn Victoria Derbyshire on just before 10am for the weather forecast and news headlines, I was a bit early today and they were talking about brexit so I left it on.
There's a panel of 14, including a couple of businessmen and a lunatic fishing industry person. 3 MPs, one was John Redwood, the others I didn't know but one was George ? supporting May & Chequers and the 3rd was supporting People's vote.
At the end of the discussion, which mainly involved Redwood talking over one or other of the businessmen, V asked the panel what they thought should happen next, the answers fell into 3 categories:
Just get on with it, everything will be fine, best days are ahead etc - this got a small round of applause each time.
Cross-party consensus, politicians should get together and sort something out. Ha.
Peoples Vote, most of these seemed to be Europeans.
What struck me was that no-one was prepared to speak up directly for remaining in the EU. Down to the BBC's panel selection, or is it practically taboo outside of Remain twitter?
Made me think there's something in the Leaver complaint that People's Vote is code for Remain.
I have just been on Twitter and apparently it does matter. The unions are the enemy of the left and these proposals will snuff out Corbynism it seems.Willow904 wrote:Even if true, does it even matter?AnatolyKasparov wrote:And the party's deputy leader has some influence in certain unions still.Willow904 wrote:I read it as a trade unionist seeking to regain some influence on the nomination and selection process for the Labour leadership for unions, who saw their input reduced in previous reforms and have been overshadowed of late by the Momentum movement.
Surely the proposal should be considered on its merits (or lack of them) rather than rumours of who may or may not favour it.
And it doesn't seem especially unreasonable to me, if a little complicated.
Couldn't even get his name right.It’s vital that the British people have clarity and honesty from their elected representatives and, as such, it’s incumbent on you to answer the following questions...
Nor me really, Parliament got us into this and Parliament should get us out of it, but there are no good options from here.Willow904 wrote: I find myself unable to get on board with the people's vote thing, I have to admit.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/09/1 ... it-riddle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Phil Syrpis
@syrpis
Sep 18
More
Many do, I think. I'm not sure why. If you, or I, or Labour, want to remain, we should say so, and seek to convince others. Saying that we want to allow people to choose between uncertain options seems... less than straightforward, to me at least.
Why you ask, D? You and your party giving up government leadership? If not, run along. Ain't got time for games."Dominic Raab, the Brexit secretary, has written an open letter to his Labour shadow, Sir Keir Starmer, challenging him to say that Labour would rule out another referendum on Brexit."
Exactlygilsey wrote:Nor me really, Parliament got us into this and Parliament should get us out of it, but there are no good options from here.Willow904 wrote: I find myself unable to get on board with the people's vote thing, I have to admit.
Has anyone else read this article or others about O'Connor's recent death? I've finally had an opportunity to read it; I've been busy all day. I'm horrifiedWindrush victim and campaigner Sarah O'Connor dies aged 57
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... es-aged-57" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's a good article. I agree with a lot of it.gilsey wrote:This.http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/09/1 ... it-riddle/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Phil Syrpis
@syrpis
Sep 18
More
Many do, I think. I'm not sure why. If you, or I, or Labour, want to remain, we should say so, and seek to convince others. Saying that we want to allow people to choose between uncertain options seems... less than straightforward, to me at least.
Disclaimer: I haven't read the article yet.
Has all this been (for lack of a better word) advertised sufficiently? Do people know? Apparently, it's not going to cost a lot of money applying and it's all going to be done online. The entire guide I've linked from the government website is about eight pages long.Settled and pre-settled status for EU citizens and their families
Who should apply
To be eligible for settled status, you’ll usually need to:
- be an EU citizen, or a family member of an EU citizen
- have been living in the UK continuously for 5 years (‘continuous residence’)
- have started living in the UK by 31 December 2020
This one doesn't inspire confidence.If you’ve lived in the UK for less than 5 years, you’ll generally be eligible for ‘pre-settled status’ instead.
You’ll need to apply even if you’re an EU citizen married to a British citizen.
Rights for citizens of Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland are still being negotiated.
How long you can live outside the UK is still subject to approval by Parliament.
...your family members from outside the UK and Ireland will need to apply.
When you should apply
It may be simpler and quicker for you if you do not apply as soon as the scheme opens.
https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;refitman wrote:It would seem that Heather Stewart, the Political Editor of the Guardian, is unaware of the history of the Sun and Liverpool. She is questioning why Sun 'journalists' haven't been invited to a Momentum event during the Labour conference. Abi Wilkinson has tried to explain it to her, but it doesn't seem to have gotten through.DFH has also weighed in, crying 'censorship'.
I DO remember under Rusbridger that young Jessica on WADDYA wrote " We are not a campaigning newspaper." Many people nagged for years to get coverage of the WCA and similar scandals and slowly it came , but never with editorial support ...refitman wrote:Gosh, remember the heady days of Rusbridger's editorship?*stares wistfully into the distance*
I hope Stewart is no longer ignorant of the reasonrefitman wrote:It would seem that Heather Stewart, the Political Editor of the Guardian, is unaware of the history of the Sun and Liverpool. She is questioning why Sun 'journalists' haven't been invited to a Momentum event during the Labour conference. Abi Wilkinson has tried to explain it to her, but it doesn't seem to have gotten through.
DFH has also weighed in, crying 'censorship'.
citizenJA wrote:Why you ask, D? You and your party giving up government leadership? If not, run along. Ain't got time for games."Dominic Raab, the Brexit secretary, has written an open letter to his Labour shadow, Sir Keir Starmer, challenging him to say that Labour would rule out another referendum on Brexit."