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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 7:37 am 
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Morning all.


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 8:19 am 
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Tory logic from one John McTernan on Toady this morning :
"Rail privatisation is a success because more than twice as many people are travelling by rail."
"Water privatisation is a success because more £'s have been invested ."
" British Leyland ! "

But apparently he's 'Labour' ?
'NEW' Labour :-)


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 9:04 am 
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" Allies of Jeremy Corbyn have drawn up “emergency leadership plans” amid fears that the Labour leader could be suspended over a series of alleged undeclared trips he took overseas, The Telegraph understands.

Senior party sources have claimed that the proposals have been devised in the event that Mr Corbyn is found to have breached Parliamentary rules following an investigation by the standards watchdog.

The plans, which are due to be put before the party’s governing body on Saturday, include a clause that would hand Labour’s national executive committee unprecedented powers to constrain the authority of Tom Watson, who would automatically become "caretaker" leader in Mr Corbyn’s absence. "
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... fears-may/

AK !


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 9:11 am 
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"the Telegraph understands" ;)

Though it is notable that their front page today doesn't follow the uncritical adulation of the PM seen in other papers.


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 9:19 am 
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Did you see this?
https://twitter.com/timothy_stanley/sta ... 8372761601

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 9:22 am 
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I did, and its hard to disagree really. Which isn't something I say about Tim Stanley that often.


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 9:31 am 
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https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true

Quote:
Former Tory MEP leader criticises party's stance on supporting Hungary


Cameron won the Tory party leadership as a Eurosceptic and spent his premiership criticising, opposing and undermining the EU. Everyone accepted his EU referendum support for remain as a genuine position, but there's plenty to suggest that position was the sham rather than his previous Eurosceptic stance.

Will history remember Cameron for "modernising" the Tory party or for turning it over to the alt right?

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 9:56 am 
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Good morfternoon.

Quote:
John McDonnell: Labour wants to push ahead with Brexit

On eve of conference, shadow chancellor defies calls for party to promise second referendum
(Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/22/john-mcdonnell-labour-wants-to-push-ahead-with-brexit


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 10:11 am 
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frog222 wrote:
" Allies of Jeremy Corbyn have drawn up “emergency leadership plans” amid fears that the Labour leader could be suspended over a series of alleged undeclared trips he took overseas, The Telegraph understands.

Senior party sources have claimed that the proposals have been devised in the event that Mr Corbyn is found to have breached Parliamentary rules following an investigation by the standards watchdog.

The plans, which are due to be put before the party’s governing body on Saturday, include a clause that would hand Labour’s national executive committee unprecedented powers to constrain the authority of Tom Watson, who would automatically become "caretaker" leader in Mr Corbyn’s absence. "
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... fears-may/

AK !


Both are true. Corbyn has been reported for undeclared trips and there are proposals to curb the deputy leader in the event they take over as leader. I wouldn't trust the Telegraph as to whether they are connected, though. As far as I can tell, Corbyn has been reported purely because the trips weren't declared, rather than because someone has come across evidence that they should have been declared but weren't.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 10:15 am 
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They're not saying it in so many words but it seems pretty clear now that if Labour were in power they'd negotiate something that looks very like Norway + CU.

I know it's been said that it would be unsustainable because rule-taking, but EFTA/EEA and it's relationship with the EU would inevitably change if UK was part of it, so who knows.

I'm coming round to the idea that it's the best we can hope for.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 10:29 am 
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gilsey wrote:

I liked this post --" I have eclectic views. At a Tory conference I once suggested the best solution to inequality wasn't a minimum income but a maximum. "How much?" Off the top of my head... "no one needs to earn more than about £80,000 a year." Pandemonium followed."
https://twitter.com/timothy_stanley/sta ... 5137606656


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 10:48 am 
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PorFavor wrote:
Good morfternoon.

Quote:
John McDonnell: Labour wants to push ahead with Brexit

On eve of conference, shadow chancellor defies calls for party to promise second referendum
(Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/22/john-mcdonnell-labour-wants-to-push-ahead-with-brexit


I stand to be proved wrong, but this must be a sign the leadership are confident they can see off being explicitly committed to a second referendum in the coming week.


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 10:51 am 
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gilsey wrote:
They're not saying it in so many words but it seems pretty clear now that if Labour were in power they'd negotiate something that looks very like Norway + CU.

I know it's been said that it would be unsustainable because rule-taking, but EFTA/EEA and it's relationship with the EU would inevitably change if UK was part of it, so who knows.

I'm coming round to the idea that it's the best we can hope for.


I've always been of the opinion it's the best we can hope for, but Corbyn repeatedly chooses to emphasis points that argue against it so I'm not sure why you think it likely to become Labour policy. Keir Starmer has struggled to get the leadership to accept even a Customs Union (something Starmer could see was essential from the beginning but took two years to convince Corbyn of) let alone membership of the single market.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 10:57 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Good morfternoon.

Quote:
John McDonnell: Labour wants to push ahead with Brexit

On eve of conference, shadow chancellor defies calls for party to promise second referendum
(Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/22/john-mcdonnell-labour-wants-to-push-ahead-with-brexit


I stand to be proved wrong, but this must be a sign the leadership are confident they can see off being explicitly committed to a second referendum in the coming week.


Where is this new Tory obsession with whether Labour will support a further referendum coming from?

I suspect shenanigans.


Edited to remove a random "n" in homage to Porfavor.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 12:37 pm 
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https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2018/09 ... imination/

Government response to learning disability deaths report will not tackle pervasive discrimination

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ual-report

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 12:41 pm 
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https://www.communitycare.co.uk/2018/09 ... per-risks/


Weak leadership exposes social care to worst green paper risks
The LGA's green paper takes a rose-tinted view of the situation facing social care and fails to address the issue of undermet need

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 12:46 pm 
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https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight ... ting-58262

Notasinkestate – your tweets hitting back at the BBC’s reporting

A BBC report stating that tenants of housing associations live on “sink estates” has prompted a strong response from residents and landlords.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
gilsey wrote:
They're not saying it in so many words but it seems pretty clear now that if Labour were in power they'd negotiate something that looks very like Norway + CU.

I know it's been said that it would be unsustainable because rule-taking, but EFTA/EEA and it's relationship with the EU would inevitably change if UK was part of it, so who knows.

I'm coming round to the idea that it's the best we can hope for.


I've always been of the opinion it's the best we can hope for, but Corbyn repeatedly chooses to emphasis points that argue against it so I'm not sure why you think it likely to become Labour policy. Keir Starmer has struggled to get the leadership to accept even a Customs Union (something Starmer could see was essential from the beginning but took two years to convince Corbyn of) let alone membership of the single market.

I don’t really think it would be their policy, I think it would be where they ended up after serious chat with Barnier. There’s no other way to minimise economic damage, is there.

Starmer already knows that, the others have to learn.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 1:50 pm 
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The thing to never forget is that the EU is not a static entity. As I've said before, there could be a productive way forward whereby some EU reforms that the majority of EU states, including a Labour UK, want are enacted.

The big one would be around freedom of movement. Though I am in many ways an enthusiast for it, I believe as currently operated in the EU it serves capital rather than upholding human rights. And different states interpret it very differently anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 2:00 pm 
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The Independent has an article that points out that as well as the fact that as well as it always being the case, and clearly always the case from before the referendum, and during the referendum, and after the referendum, and after we gave Article 50 notice, and through all of the negotiations so far, that there was no possibility of cherry picking from all of free movement of goods, services, capital and labour, and despite any previous customs plan involving our collecting tariffs for the EU being dismissed as politically and practically unacceptable, and despite our commitment to maintain the ROI/NI border as it is that we made last December and confirmed this March and that our plans have been clearly labelled unworkable and unacceptable, in addition to all of this there are seven separate occasions since the white paper was published when EU spokespeople made public announcements that the proposals were unacceptable and would not be agreed, in addition to a number of public announcements by other national leaders and however many private communications have also gone on.

I find the reaction of the government and the press today one of the most shameful things I've ever seen. It might be that they are just very very stupid, and I might well be wrong but I don't think so. It might be that they are just completely delusional, with a faith in English exceptionalism, which may well be the case. I think it's most likely that all they care about is keeping the conservative party, and the government's majority, together for the time being. They don't care about anything else at all. Shameful.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 2:06 pm 
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https://action.labour.org.uk/page/conte ... buse-leave

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 2:13 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 2:22 pm 
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adam wrote:
It might be that they are just very very stupid, and I might well be wrong but I don't think so. It might be that they are just completely delusional, with a faith in English exceptionalism, which may well be the case. I think it's most likely that all they care about is keeping the conservative party, and the government's majority, together for the time being. They don't care about anything else at all. Shameful.


That may explain the right wing press, but "even" the dear old Graun's front page amounts to little more than stenography.


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Happy birthday to AK.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Afternoon all.

Unusual Saturday for me - a school meeting that started at 8:30 and then went to a funeral. I quite like the custom these days (which is the same as we did) which is to do crematorium and committal first, then have a service of thanksgiving/memories with refreshments afterwards and catch up with old friends.

And the Os are 2-0 up away from home...

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 3:55 pm 
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I was with you until the away from home mention.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 3:59 pm 
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https://youtu.be/M7b_3MqFCfU

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 5:27 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... are_btn_tw


https://www.york.ac.uk/news-and-events/ ... view-rugg/

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Happy Birthday, AK!


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Good-evening, everyone


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 8:19 pm 
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Tom Watson tells Corbyn: ‘We must back members on new Brexit vote’
Labour party deputy speaks out as poll shows 86% of members want second referendum
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... party-poll

I thought the present leadership position to be a parliamentary 'meaningful' vote on any deal and if the gov lost that, a GE ? Lots of unknowns there :-)
(and I've always had probs with 'meaningful '...)
---------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT -- because of course the govt wouldn't agree on an election.


Last edited by frog222 on Sat 22 Sep, 2018 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Michael Lewis –” The people who eventually turned up to run Trump’s federal government were nothing like MacWilliams, Zaidi or the other public servants Lewis met. They are more like intellectually limp versions of the arrogant “Big Swinging Dicks” Lewis described on the Salomon trading floor. Many government positions remain unfilled, but those who are in office are there not by dint of intelligence or expertise, but through cronyism and loyalty to Trump.

“The woman who ran the Obama department’s energy-policy analysis unit received a call from Department of Energy staff telling her that her office was now occupied by Eric Trump’s brother-in-law,” Lewis writes (Eric is Donald’s son). “Why? No one knew.”

Trump’s people, Lewis makes clear, are largely inept and animated by greed, anti-government ideology and a “commitment to scientific ignorance”. Trump himself is, in Lewis’s view, “the single worst business manager that’s ever occupied the office. He’s obsessed only with himself, he doesn’t manage anything.””

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/ ... ng-america


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Well.

Quote:
Mirror Politics

Verified account

@MirrorPolitics
40m40 minutes ago
More
EXCLUSIVE: Jeremy Corbyn WILL back second referendum if Labour votes for it - and vows to topple Theresa May in November https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... m-13292683

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Thanks for the birthday greetings, all.


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Good-night, everyone
love,
cJA


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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 10:21 pm 
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https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1 ... 7818936322

Quote:
Steve Peers

Verified account

@StevePeers
Following Following @StevePeers
More Steve Peers Retweeted Property Spotter
"A separate Anglo-Irish trade treaty". Extraordinary if true. David Davis spent two years as Brexit Secretary and *still* thinks that Member States can sign trade agreements. Has anyone this stupid ever before held such a key role in a UK government?


:lol:

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 7:58 am 
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RogerOThornhill wrote:
https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1043620287818936322
Quote:
Steve Peers
@StevePeers Following Following @StevePeers
More Steve Peers Retweeted Property Spotter
"A separate Anglo-Irish trade treaty". Extraordinary if true. David Davis spent two years as Brexit Secretary and *still* thinks that Member States can sign trade agreements. Has anyone this stupid ever before held such a key role in a UK government?
:lol:

That is similar to the apparent belief in an overnight transition to "WTO terms"
Half a dozen trade partners of the EU have another month to object to transfer of a proportion of Ex/Im quotas from the EU to the newly Sovereign UK ... and that's just a start !


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 9:10 am 
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https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... d380cf?295

Quote:
‘Politburo’ Plan To Allow Labour’s Ruling Body To 'Run Britain' If Jeremy Corbyn Suddenly Quits As PM


To apply this rule in government seems rather controversial. Would it even be constitutional?

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 10:02 am 
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Just watching Jeremy Corbyn on Marr and couldn't help noticing that when quoting the percentage of Labour voters who supported leave in the referendum he picked a figure - 40% - that sits at the very higher end of estimates. Yougov put it at 35%, only a few percentage points higher than Libdem voters. Neither figure is wrong as such, they are both within the margin of error being only 5 points apart, but my personal bias means I focused on the lower figures, so I find it interesting that Corbyn has internalized a rather higher one.

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 10:08 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/politburo-plan-to-allow-labours-ruling-body-to-run-britain-if-corbyn-suddenly-quits-as-pm-rule-change-acting-leader-tom-watson_uk_5ba6d156e4b069d5f9d380cf?295
Quote:
‘Politburo’ Plan To Allow Labour’s Ruling Body To 'Run Britain' If Jeremy Corbyn Suddenly Quits As PM

To apply this rule in government seems rather controversial. Would it even be constitutional?

At that rate, and I'm unfortunately not joking, why not do away with the 'leader as PM' and have the NEC as supreme executive body ? Batshit crazy stuff , from Seumas Milne, or who ?
If the Leader's Office is so scared of 'the consequences of Tom Watson' how on earth do they hope to campaign to become a government ?


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 10:51 am 
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Surely the answer to that is that they hope to be rid of him if the GE isn't until 2021/22?

But if it happens sooner.......


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 11:41 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Surely the answer to that is that they hope to be rid of him if the GE isn't until 2021/22?

But if it happens sooner.......


But if Corbyn steps down as leader while in government the interim leader won't necessarily be the deputy leader it'll be who the cabinet - Corbyn's cabinet - chooses. So that makes this about more than just Tom Watson. I don't think it would go down well with the public if it should actually happen although, to be honest, I'm not sure if it would stand up in the eventuality. The appointed interim leader could well ignore it as constitutionally they would be PM and would simply argue they are a representative not a delegate and for the NEC to attempt to treat them as such would go against the principles of a representative democracy.

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 12:50 pm 
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Given his reported comments today, Ed Miliband for deputy? :)


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Remember the bloke who was chucked out of the conference, for heckling Straw?
Quote:
Jeremy Corbyn

@jeremycorbyn

I was proud to present Walter Wolfgang with a Labour Party merit award.

Walter came to Britain after fleeing Nazi Germany. He joined our Party in 1948 and has spent his life fighting for peace, justice and socialism.

Our movement owes Walter a huge debt of gratitude. #Lab18
12:36 PM - Sep 23, 2018
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status ... 9240454144


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 3:38 pm 
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Everybody too wrapped up in conference proceedings to post here, then?


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 4:03 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Everybody too wrapped up in conference proceedings to post here, then?

I've just finished drilling lots of holes and installing various useful bits and bobs ;-)

Nice sunny day too, though on the chilly side.


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Yes, it is nice today.

I have noticed that the proposed leadership eligibility rules have been changed from 10%MPs and 5%CLPs and 5%TUs to 10%MPs and then either 5%CLPs *or* 5%TUs. That makes a significant difference and the left are quite a bit happier with it I would think.


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Just waiting to see what gets voted through (whilst defrosting the freezer, a chore I've been putting off for way too long) and reading the Angela Rayner interview in the G. She comes across quite well, I think.

_________________
“Find a nice, self sufficient hilltop, and fortify it.” - The Kraken Wakes


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Just seen Andy Beckett's "long read" in the Graun about the eclipse of "third way" politics. He is one of their best writers these days, and this is typically good.

(and not a surprise that Ed Miliband comes across better in it than almost everybody else)


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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep, 2018 7:11 pm 
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“”I was elected leader of this Party, and I’m going to do what I’m told.””


PTO !


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