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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 6:03 am 
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 9:28 am 
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“We need somebody who can articulate the sunny uplands, who can tell us what all the great opportunities that are going to be there. Theresa May is not doing that.”

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Quoting Dorries. She was on Newsnight with Alastair Campbell and Amber Rudd, impossible for them to have a sensible discussion with her.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 9:37 am 
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From the G live blog

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Labour could 'bend' its red lines to help secure Brexit deal, Gardiner claims
The ITV Peston show also had Barry Gardiner, the shadow international trade secretary, on as a guest last night, and he said Labour would be willing to “bend” its red lines in the interests of helping the UK get a Brexit deal


I don't normally agree with Barry Gardiner on very much, but there is a point worth making about this. When Corbyn talks of rejecting "May's deal" he is overlooking the fact that if she does get a deal it won't just be her deal, it will also be the EU's deal. Their best offer. And yes it's their best offer in the face of Tory red lines but will nonetheless be made in good faith. All UK MPs are going to have to think long and hard before rejecting it out of hand if their intention is to achieve an orderly Brexit and maintain good relations with our neighbours. Although the EU is no doubt sympathetic to the internal politics of it, the UK rejecting their deal is the UK rejecting their deal and it can't be assumed they will respond with unlimited patience.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 9:48 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
From the G live blog

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Labour could 'bend' its red lines to help secure Brexit deal, Gardiner claims
The ITV Peston show also had Barry Gardiner, the shadow international trade secretary, on as a guest last night, and he said Labour would be willing to “bend” its red lines in the interests of helping the UK get a Brexit deal


I don't normally agree with Barry Gardiner on very much, but there is a point worth making about this. When Corbyn talks of rejecting "May's deal" he is overlooking the fact that if she does get a deal it won't just be her deal, it will also be the EU's deal. Their best offer. And yes it's their best offer in the face of Tory red lines but will nonetheless be made in good faith. All UK MPs are going to have to think long and hard before rejecting it out of hand if their intention is to achieve an orderly Brexit and maintain good relations with our neighbours. Although the EU is no doubt sympathetic to the internal politics of it, the UK rejecting their deal is the UK rejecting their deal and it can't be assumed they will respond with unlimited patience.


It still seems overwhelmingly likely that, regardless of what this government might propose, the only deal the EU would agree to is either something like Norway, which I can understand might be acceptable (although I fundamentally don't understand why, given a choice between Norway and Remain, anybody would choose Norway) or something like Canada, which would involve an agreement on our part to break up the UK and which we should clearly have nothing to do with.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 9:59 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
if she does get a deal it won't just be her deal, it will also be the EU's deal. Their best offer. And yes it's their best offer in the face of Tory red lines but will nonetheless be made in good faith.

In the political declaration it should be Norway or Canada because those are the deals on offer from the EU. To support the GFA, Norway would be +CU, and Canada would be +backstop.

Canada + backstop will be so damaging to the economy I don't see how Labour could support it under any circumstances.

Similarly 'blind brexit', where the PD is a fudge.

The possibility of May moving to Norway + CU and putting Labour on the spot is vanishingly small imo.

At the end of the day I'm sure the EU are totally fed up with the tory govt but I don't believe they want to punish the UK population in general.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 10:18 am 
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gilsey wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
if she does get a deal it won't just be her deal, it will also be the EU's deal. Their best offer. And yes it's their best offer in the face of Tory red lines but will nonetheless be made in good faith.

In the political declaration it should be Norway or Canada because those are the deals on offer from the EU. To support the GFA, Norway would be +CU, and Canada would be +backstop.

Canada + backstop will be so damaging to the economy I don't see how Labour could support it under any circumstances.

Similarly 'blind brexit', where the PD is a fudge.

The possibility of May moving to Norway + CU and putting Labour on the spot is vanishingly small imo.

At the end of the day I'm sure the EU are totally fed up with the tory govt but I don't believe they want to punish the UK population in general.


Yes, very much this.

And in the still pretty unlikely event it actually happened, any problems for Labour would be dwarfed by the maelstrom engulfing her own party.


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 10:42 am 
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It seems most likely the political declaration will be a fudge. Although I get the arguments against a "blind Brexit" I'm not sure myself that rejecting the certainty of a transition period is quite such a straightforward choice as it appears. Article 50 was triggered against the backdrop of a political declaration of leaving the single market and customs union, because Labour were afraid of appearing to "block Brexit". Yet now, not only are they not afraid to be seen as "blocking Brexit", but are willing to sour relations with the EU and risk crashing out with no deal? I'm struggling to see the consistency in the rationale of these positions.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 10:50 am 
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More than possible May fails to get a deal, of course, because it would involve facing up to the above articulated realities.

The Tories are under a lot more pressure than Labour as a result, with the added issue of a majority of their voters supporting leave. They may have to make the unpalatable choices all by themselves, in the end. Under the circumstances, I'm not about to rule out May going for Norway quite yet.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 11:16 am 
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https://leftfootforward.org/2018/09/wha ... -practice/

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What does Labour’s new Brexit position mean in practice?
Richard CorbettRichard Corbett
Today
The party's new Brexit stance now makes another referendum more than likely, writes Labour's leader in the European Parliament.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 12:10 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
https://leftfootforward.org/2018/09/what-does-labours-new-brexit-position-mean-in-practice/

Quote:
What does Labour’s new Brexit position mean in practice?
Richard CorbettRichard Corbett
Today
The party's new Brexit stance now makes another referendum more than likely, writes Labour's leader in the European Parliament.


A pretty fair assessment IMO.


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
https://leftfootforward.org/2018/09/what-does-labours-new-brexit-position-mean-in-practice/

Quote:
What does Labour’s new Brexit position mean in practice?
Richard CorbettRichard Corbett
Today
The party's new Brexit stance now makes another referendum more than likely, writes Labour's leader in the European Parliament.


I heard Richard Corbett being interviewed the other day. He seemed to talk a lot of sense.


Last edited by PorFavor on Thu 27 Sep, 2018 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Good morfternoon.


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 12:18 pm 
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That was a typo edit - nothing meaning altering.


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
It seems most likely the political declaration will be a fudge. Although I get the arguments against a "blind Brexit" I'm not sure myself that rejecting the certainty of a transition period is quite such a straightforward choice as it appears. Article 50 was triggered against the backdrop of a political declaration of leaving the single market and customs union, because Labour were afraid of appearing to "block Brexit". Yet now, not only are they not afraid to be seen as "blocking Brexit", but are willing to sour relations with the EU and risk crashing out with no deal? I'm struggling to see the consistency in the rationale of these positions.

Sour relations with the EU now, or later, is the choice in practice though? No way the govt can get from the fudge to a long-term deal without even more grief, which is why I think the EU'd be mad to agree to it. July 2020 would look much like October 2018 ie a complete shitshow.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Nice to see that Marina Hyde's latest (utterly awful) piece is getting a well justified punishment beating on social media.


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 2:39 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Nice to see that Marina Hyde's latest (utterly awful) piece is getting a well justified punishment beating on social media.


Yes, the Marina Hyde article really was awful (and I'm not an undiluted Jeremy Corbyn admirer). I can't speak for the social media bit ("Twitter"?) as I don't follow it as a subscriber.


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 3:14 pm 
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The thing is, its not even very well written - and you can usually say that at least about her stuff, however much you may disagree with the actual substance.


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Evening, all


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 5:02 pm 
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citizenJA wrote:
Evening, all


You're not allowed to say that, anymore. According to the Daily Mail . . .


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 5:41 pm 
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Is there a list of things not to say?


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 5:49 pm 
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£40k spent hiding how rarely northern powerhouse minister visited north
Government spent two years trying to conceal how infrequently James Wharton travelled to north of England

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -the-north
an article well-titled


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 5:53 pm 
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I rarely visit the Daily Mail website


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 5:54 pm 
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https://uktradeforum.net/2018/09/26/fut ... ssion=true

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Future UK trade deals and the question of sovereignty


Not new to anyone here, but this is good on how Brexiter's idea of "taking back control" is somewhat undermined by their excitement at giving that control away again, as they would have to in order to secure new trade deals.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Half a dozen of Richard Murphy's most recent posts are like this one, complimentary to Lab —
who-is-the-most-pro-business-party ?
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018 ... ess-party/


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 6:30 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
https://uktradeforum.net/2018/09/26/future-uk-trade-deals-and-the-question-of-sovereignty/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Quote:
Future UK trade deals and the question of sovereignty

Not new to anyone here, but this is good on how Brexiter's idea of "taking back control" is somewhat undermined by their excitement at giving that control away again, as they would have to in order to secure new trade deals.
I'd like to know the true intentions of those with power in the UK
Irreconcilable objectives are glaring


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 6:30 pm 
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I enjoyed tuesday’s Crace, very naughty !

” As he neared the end of his speech Starmer glanced to his left and noticed that Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t in the hall. Out of sight, out of mind, so he decided to veer off from his agreed text and ad lib. When it came to a people’s vote, no one would be ruling out remain as an option. There were a few astonished gasps and then at least half of a near full auditorium rose to give him a standing ovation. This is what they had come to conference for. To be offered some hope on Brexit. And their faith had been rewarded.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nce-sketch

Various writers give different appreciations on how many gave him the standing ovation … from ‘overwhelming’ to about equal .


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Arguably that was the genius of it though - it cheered people (well a lot of them) up, whilst not actually committing the party to anything new.

Despite the claims it was a "snub" to Corbyn, I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if it had been choreographed to at least a degree.


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Quote:
£40k spent hiding how rarely northern powerhouse minister visited north

Government spent two years trying to conceal how infrequently James Wharton travelled to north of England (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/27/government-hid-details-of-northern-powerhouse-minister-james-wharton-visits-to-the-north


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 7:37 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Arguably that was the genius of it though - it cheered people (well a lot of them) up, whilst not actually committing the party to anything new.

Despite the claims it was a "snub" to Corbyn, I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if it had been choreographed to at least a degree.

whilst not actually committing the party to anything new.

Nothing on tuition fees this time :-)


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 7:57 pm 
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More crazy scary Trumpology from Michael Lewis --
/this-guy-doesnt-know-anything-the-inside-story-of-trumps-shambolic-transition-team
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/s ... ition-team


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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 8:02 pm 
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PorFavor wrote:
Quote:
£40k spent hiding how rarely northern powerhouse minister visited north

Government spent two years trying to conceal how infrequently James Wharton travelled to north of England (Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/27/government-hid-details-of-northern-powerhouse-minister-james-wharton-visits-to-the-north

Never visited his constituency then, why doesn't that surprise me. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Adam Fleming

@adamfleming
Probably the most striking thing about @jeremycorbyn's trip to Brussels was the huge interest in him from the foreign media. They couldn't get enough Corbs today!

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 8:38 pm 
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Brandon Lewis, the Tory chairman....................revealed that, at the conference starting this weekend, the party will unveil an interactive conference app which will allow people to provide feedback during cabinet minister’s speeches.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 10:43 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
https://uktradeforum.net/2018/09/26/future-uk-trade-deals-and-the-question-of-sovereignty/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Quote:
Future UK trade deals and the question of sovereignty


Not new to anyone here, but this is good on how Brexiter's idea of "taking back control" is somewhat undermined by their excitement at giving that control away again, as they would have to in order to secure new trade deals.


There's a good piece from the LSE Brexit Blog on this kind of issue here...

Lessons from South Korea: What would a hard Brexit mean for British manufacturers?

... which essentially points out that, outside the various regulatory regimes and without comprehensive trade deals, the South Korean car industry has to run different plants making different products for different markets.

The government keep telling us that one of the prizes they are seeking is the right to diverge from EU regulatory regimes, but if we do that then trade deal or no trade deal we will not be able to trade into EU nations. China has EU product regulations on its statute books to ensure that its factories comply with standards that allow them to export goods into the EU. If we want a future trading relationship with the rest of the EU at all it will always involve regulatory compliance and of course when we leave we'll be having to comply with a regulatory regime we will have no say in shaping.

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Sep, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Quote:
Two Republicans close to the White House say Trump expressed sympathy for Kavanaugh and his family for having to listen to Ford’s tearful recounting of allegations


You'll excuse me whilst I just go off to vomit.

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