Monday 15th October 2018

A home from home
Forum rules
Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
User avatar
refitman
Site Admin
Posts: 7691
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:22 pm
Location: Wombwell, United Kingdom

Monday 15th October 2018

Post by refitman »

Morning all.
User avatar
Willow904
Prime Minister
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by Willow904 »

The cost of austerity:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 6.html?amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Children in England are more likely to die in infancy than their European counterparts and are set to be left further behind on a range of health measures unless the government and NHS act now, a major report warns.
Child poverty is a major factor, as mentioned in this article, while the G version also mentions chronic respiratory conditions, so air pollution may play a part.

So very political and more money to treat symptoms is not the answer. The cause needs to be tackled at source. The Tories need to be ejected from government if child mortality rates are to improve.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
User avatar
Willow904
Prime Minister
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by Willow904 »

This is interesting.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by HindleA »

Ejected to another planet would be my preference.
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-l ... s-strategy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PM launches Government’s first loneliness strategy

If only there had been an already existing method to combat social isolation and they hadn't heightened eligibility by legislation.
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Good-morning, everyone
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Please wake up, PorFavor.
gilsey
Prime Minister
Posts: 6173
Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 10:51 am

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by gilsey »

Willow904 wrote:This is interesting.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just saw a clip of Starmer with Victoria Derbyshire earlier, saying choice only between May's deal and no deal was unacceptable.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
gilsey
Prime Minister
Posts: 6173
Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 10:51 am

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by gilsey »

One world, like it or not - John Martyn
User avatar
Willow904
Prime Minister
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by Willow904 »

gilsey wrote:
Willow904 wrote:This is interesting.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just saw a clip of Starmer with Victoria Derbyshire earlier, saying choice only between May's deal and no deal was unacceptable.
It is unacceptable.

That doesn't mean that isn't what we'll end up with, though.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
User avatar
Willow904
Prime Minister
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by Willow904 »

A few numbers in this Twitter thread help to underline how UC design flaws plus huge benefits cuts have combined to impoverish children in particular, though also the sick and disabled and anyone who needs help with housing, in a deliberate and systematic manner:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Josephine Tucker
@josietucker
·
Oct 14
The freeze on working-age benefits is the biggest single cut - for years support hasn’t risen with rents or inflation. Over the decade failure to uprate benefits properly will cost the poorest 10% of households over 10% of their income. (link: http://www.cpag.org.uk/sites/default/fi ... 0FINAL.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) cpag.org.uk/sites/default/… (3/18)
Cutting the link between benefits and the cost of living was a hugely damaging move by Osborne but passed by the press with barely a whimper and I still struggle to understand why a much bigger fuss wasn't made over a policy which basically said "we will no longer ensure benefits provide the bare minimum someone needs to live on". It's disgraceful.

As have been the repeated refusals to do cumulative impact assessments of the combination of benefit changes and cuts on particular individuals hence we end up with this:
Josephine Tucker
@josietucker
·
Oct 14
For some people these losses add up to be mind-bendingly large. A disabled single parent with a disabled child, for example, loses on average nearly £10,000 a year in support from tax/benefit reforms this decade. (link: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sit ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/… (8/18)
t

We all know what's been happening, but these numbers, listed all together, are still pretty shocking.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
User avatar
adam
First Secretary of State
Posts: 3210
Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 9:15 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by adam »

With all of the bluster going on this morning it's very very difficult to see how the government can step back from the brink and actually carry their own supporters with them. Party or Country for May? I'm not holding my breath.
I still believe in a town called Hope
tinybgoat
Speaker of the House
Posts: 2231
Joined: Mon 23 Feb, 2015 8:23 am

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by tinybgoat »

Willow904 wrote:This is interesting.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
not necessarily connected, but maybe relevant:
https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit- ... today/amp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Sinn Féin leader to talk Brexit with May and Corbyn today"
tinybgoat
Speaker of the House
Posts: 2231
Joined: Mon 23 Feb, 2015 8:23 am

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by tinybgoat »

citizenJA wrote:Please wake up, PorFavor.
Probably overwhelmed with emotion over royal baby news. ;)
gilsey
Prime Minister
Posts: 6173
Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 10:51 am

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by gilsey »

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Paul Johnson

Verified account

@PJTheEconomist
4h4 hours ago
More
4) None of this is news. We've known about welfare cuts since 2015 (most are implemented) and much about impact of Universal Credit since 2012. Why does it take until now for the flurry of political concern?
We are poorly served by our politicians and media.


edit - better late than never.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
gilsey
Prime Minister
Posts: 6173
Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 10:51 am

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by gilsey »

Theresa May will make a statement to MPs this afternoon about the Brexit talks. Prime ministers always make Commons statements after EU summits. But to give one two days before a summit is very unusual. Perhaps she intends to lay down some negotiating red lines. The statement will start at 3.30, unless there are urgent questions, in which case it will be delayed for half an hour or more.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

tinybgoat wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Please wake up, PorFavor.
Probably overwhelmed with emotion over royal baby news. ;)
I hadn't heard. But now that I have, you're quite right. I'm overwhelmed, etc.

(I've come over all Brenda from Bristol.)
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.
User avatar
Willow904
Prime Minister
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by Willow904 »

tinybgoat wrote:
Willow904 wrote:This is interesting.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
not necessarily connected, but maybe relevant:
https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit- ... today/amp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Sinn Féin leader to talk Brexit with May and Corbyn today"
While Labour doesn't want to be seen to be voting for May's brexit, a withdrawal deal agreed by cross-party consensus would be another matter. I doubt May has the ability or authority to achieve this, though, so I suspect it's more a case of "look, we tried".
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Theresa May to make some sort of announcement to the Commons some time later today (BBC News).
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

@gilsey

Whoops - sorry.
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Willow904 wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:
Willow904 wrote:This is interesting.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
not necessarily connected, but maybe relevant:
https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit- ... today/amp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Sinn Féin leader to talk Brexit with May and Corbyn today"
While Labour doesn't want to be seen to be voting for May's brexit, a withdrawal deal agreed by cross-party consensus would be another matter. I doubt May has the ability or authority to achieve this, though, so I suspect it's more a case of "look, we tried".

"Idiosyncracies" of the DUP?
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

What’s the point of growth if it creates so much misery? (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dations-up
gilsey
Prime Minister
Posts: 6173
Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 10:51 am

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by gilsey »

Sturgeon's come out for SM + CU.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
AnatolyKasparov
Prime Minister
Posts: 15624
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

gilsey wrote:
Paul Johnson

Verified account

@PJTheEconomist
4h4 hours ago
More
4) None of this is news. We've known about welfare cuts since 2015 (most are implemented) and much about impact of Universal Credit since 2012. Why does it take until now for the flurry of political concern?
We are poorly served by our politicians and media.


edit - better late than never.
It didn't help that certain "extremely sensible" elements within Labour constantly moaned that it was a waste of time opposing this stuff.

(when they weren't actually cheering it on, that is)
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
User avatar
adam
First Secretary of State
Posts: 3210
Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 9:15 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by adam »

Sinn Fein say they will call for a Border Poll immediately if the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal.
I still believe in a town called Hope
AnatolyKasparov
Prime Minister
Posts: 15624
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

adam wrote:Sinn Fein say they will call for a Border Poll immediately if the UK crashes out of the EU without a deal.
Its All Just Going Swimmingly, part 94.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

And she's off . . .
User avatar
adam
First Secretary of State
Posts: 3210
Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 9:15 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by adam »

PorFavor wrote:And she's off . . .
It appears to be the rank outsider 'Everything you have read and heard about the weekend is wrong' speech.
I still believe in a town called Hope
GetYou
Minister of State
Posts: 527
Joined: Thu 12 Feb, 2015 6:16 pm
Location: Labour-Liberal marginal

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by GetYou »

The backstop that was agreed was not to be temporary.

May says the UK cannot accept a backstop that could go on forever.

I've lost my will to live again.
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by HindleA »

RIP Patricia Hollis


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45866798" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by HindleA on Mon 15 Oct, 2018 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by HindleA »

[youtube]2d2IXbwaaQc[/youtube]
AnatolyKasparov
Prime Minister
Posts: 15624
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

Indeed, a sad loss.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by citizenJA »

tinybgoat wrote:
citizenJA wrote:Please wake up, PorFavor.
Probably overwhelmed with emotion over royal baby news. ;)
:lol:
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.
thank goodness you're here
:rock:
User avatar
Willow904
Prime Minister
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by Willow904 »

From the G:
Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leading Tory Brexiter, asks why British negotiators ignored the point about having a customs border down the Irish Sea being illegal.

May says her negotiators did not ignore that.
Has anyone heard this one before about an Irish sea border being illegal? I thought there were already a small number of border checks between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain, so I assume Rees-Mogg is talking about a more general principle, but is it really a legal problem or just a political issue?
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Contingent Liability Notification: Written statement - HCWS1009 - Treasury - 15 October 2018
John Glen (The Economic Secretary to the Treasury)


I can today confirm that I have laid a Treasury Minute informing the House of the contingent liability that HM Treasury has taken on
in authorising the sale of a portfolio of Bradford & Bingley (B&B) and NRAM loans acquired during the financial crisis under the last
Labour Government.

On this occasion, due to the sensitivities surrounding the commercial negotiation of this sale, it has not been possible to notify
Parliament of the particulars of the liability in advance of the sale announcement.


https://www.parliament.uk/business/publ ... 5/HCWS1009" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(cJA emphasis)

Tory government's commercial negotiations mean no democratic accountability
User avatar
RogerOThornhill
Prime Minister
Posts: 11115
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Jack Maidment

Verified account

@jrmaidment
14m14 minutes ago
More
Theresa May hints MPs could block no-deal Brexit
“If it were the case at the end of the negotiation process actually it was a no deal... then actually that would come back to this House & then we would see what position this House would take in the circumstances of the time.”
Well, that would be interesting...
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Kay Burley (Sky News) just referred to the "eponymous" Boris Johnson. Stupid woman (KB).
tinybgoat
Speaker of the House
Posts: 2231
Joined: Mon 23 Feb, 2015 8:23 am

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by tinybgoat »

Willow904 wrote:From the G:
Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leading Tory Brexiter, asks why British negotiators ignored the point about having a customs border down the Irish Sea being illegal.

May says her negotiators did not ignore that.
Has anyone heard this one before about an Irish sea border being illegal? I thought there were already a small number of border checks between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain, so I assume Rees-Mogg is talking about a more general principle, but is it really a legal problem or just a political issue?
Think it was this:
http://belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/nort ... 26116.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but think there was talk over summer of house of lords finding some way to allow house of commons to reconsider it.
tinybgoat
Speaker of the House
Posts: 2231
Joined: Mon 23 Feb, 2015 8:23 am

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by tinybgoat »

from 12th September
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... to-commons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The taxation (cross-border trade) bill, was amended at the behest of Jacob Rees-Mogg’s European Research Group (ERG) to outlaw a customs border in the Irish Sea, and force the government to legislate before it could join a customs union, among other issues.
As the legislation passes through the Lords, peers are unable to amend it, because it has been designated an “aids and supply bill”.
But Smith’s team have received advice from experts in parliamentary procedure that they can help to reopen debate about the amendments, by attaching them to a separate piece of legislation – the trade bill, also currently passing through the Lords.
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Steve richards @steverichards14

May is twisting and turning in increasingly contorted attempts to keep her government together. Brexit hardliners forced the weak Cameron to hold the referendum when few wanted one. Now May similarly weak. A braver PM wd state there’s only one solution to Irish Question : Remain
3:54 PM - Oct 15, 2018 (Politics Live, Guardian)
Quite. Fairly obvious - not to David Cameron, of course.
User avatar
adam
First Secretary of State
Posts: 3210
Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 9:15 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by adam »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Indeed, a sad loss.
She was one of my first year tutors when I was an undergraduate (mumble mumble everyone I know is dying mumble mumble)

(Apologies, I know it's not funny in any way but you know what I mean).
I still believe in a town called Hope
User avatar
Willow904
Prime Minister
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by Willow904 »

tinybgoat wrote:
Willow904 wrote:From the G:
Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leading Tory Brexiter, asks why British negotiators ignored the point about having a customs border down the Irish Sea being illegal.

May says her negotiators did not ignore that.
Has anyone heard this one before about an Irish sea border being illegal? I thought there were already a small number of border checks between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain, so I assume Rees-Mogg is talking about a more general principle, but is it really a legal problem or just a political issue?
Think it was this:
http://belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/nort ... 26116.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but think there was talk over summer of house of lords finding some way to allow house of commons to reconsider it.

Thanks tinybgoat. That does appear to be what Rees-Mogg was referring to and I'd call that a political issue rather than a legal one myself. A straightjacket the government has made for itself. And what exactly were Grieve, Soubry et al doing when that amendment came up. Pfft!
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
frog222
Prime Minister
Posts: 5339
Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by frog222 »

Pfft! perhaps, but how many pages of legislation were there to read through ?
frog222
Prime Minister
Posts: 5339
Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by frog222 »

ITMA !

First as tragedy, then as farce. And when that’s exhausted, all that’s left is a third-rate village pantomime. Brexit can make fools of the cleverest people, so has a field day making fools of fools. As a general rule when you haven’t got anything to say, it’s best to say nothing. But Theresa May is now so hopelessly crushed and disorientated, she felt obliged to come to the Commons to give a statement on what hadn’t happened. She hoped this made her sound as if she was still in control of the negotiations, but only proved she wasn’t”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -pantomine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
adam
First Secretary of State
Posts: 3210
Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 9:15 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by adam »

Excellent work from somebody BTL at the guardian
We had one million bags of the best Sligo rags
We had two million barrels of stones
We had three million sides of old blind horses' hides
We had four million barrels of bones
We had five million hogs, had six million dogs
Seven million barrels of porter
We had eight million bales of old nanny goats' tails
On the hold at the Irish Border....
I still believe in a town called Hope
User avatar
adam
First Secretary of State
Posts: 3210
Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 9:15 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by adam »

The current lead story on the Graun's web front page -Theresa May faces frantic 48 hours to save Brexit plan as talks stall- says
A backstop is required to ensure that there is no hard border in Ireland if a comprehensive free trade deal cannot be signed before the end of 2020
...which is plainly wrong. A backstop is required to ensure there is no hard border in Ireland if an agreement can't be reached that goes far beyond a comprehensive free trade deal, including the kind of absence of product standard and phytosanitary checks that only comes with regulatory alignment and international oversight that in turn only comes with the single market. They're confusing 'free trade' with 'frictionless trade'. Again.
I still believe in a town called Hope
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by PorFavor »

That sort of laziness\sloppiness helped get us to the position we're in now.
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Monday 15th October 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:That sort of laziness\sloppiness helped get us to the position we're in now.
Exactly.
Locked