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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 7:19 am 
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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 7:49 am 
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Morning all.

"We don't know where he is. He left the building"

"Oh OK, he's dead. In a fight. But instead of informing the local police we secretly disposed of his body"

Not a good look...

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 9:19 am 
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Sorry if we've already done this

https://lustigletter.blogspot.com/2018/ ... er-to.html

Why Robin Lustig isn't going on the Peoples Vote march - I agree with a great deal of this.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 10:08 am 
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https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-deal
"£250,000 ad campaign urges voters to oppose May’s Brexit deal"
Quote:
An anonymously run influence campaign has spent more than £250,000 on Facebook encouraging British voters to email their MPs opposing Theresa May’s Brexit deal.
In adverts micro-targeted to individual constituencies, voters are exhorted to “tell your local MP to bin Chequers ....
..The campaign, which is estimated to have reached more than 10 million voters..”.


I'm not a fan of another referendum, but
Funny how marching for one is seen as not fully accepting a democratic process, whilst systematic attempts to sway the outcome of brexit just gets accepted.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 10:15 am 
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Highly predictable Corbyn moment.

Turns out he's in Geneva meeting the former President of Chile Michelle Bachelet.

I think there's a celebration of the 70th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

He does manage some pretty decent excuses for avoiding Peoples Vote events :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 10:16 am 
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BTW @R'oT I still don't know what your post is about ;-)


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 10:18 am 
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... n-confirms

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 10:33 am 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Highly predictable Corbyn moment. Turns out he's in Geneva meeting the former President of Chile Michelle Bachelet.I think there's a celebration of the 70th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

He does manage some pretty decent excuses for avoiding Peoples Vote events :lol:


Thanks for that . I was going to ask if this was an Allotment Day :-)


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 10:42 am 
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tinybgoat wrote:
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/20/facebook-campaign-urges-voters-to-oppose-theresa-may-brexit-deal
"£250,000 ad campaign urges voters to oppose May’s Brexit deal"
Quote:
An anonymously run influence campaign has spent more than £250,000 on Facebook encouraging British voters to email their MPs opposing Theresa May’s Brexit deal.
In adverts micro-targeted to individual constituencies, voters are exhorted to “tell your local MP to bin Chequers ....
..The campaign, which is estimated to have reached more than 10 million voters..”.


I'm not a fan of another referendum, but
Funny how marching for one is seen as not fully accepting a democratic process, whilst systematic attempts to sway the outcome of brexit just gets accepted.


Well, its not like both sides in the referendum didn't get up to some fairly dodgy stuff. And how influential were the "Russian bots" and the like really?

Leave primarily won because:

1) a significant minority of the population is overtly racist
2) the failures of the centrist/neoliberal political consensus going back several years
3) the complacency, tin-earedness and at time outright awfulness of the official Remain campaign

None of this has much to do with Facebook memes, and they would have had precisely zero effect without it.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 10:48 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Well, its not like both sides in the referendum didn't get up to some fairly dodgy stuff. And how influential were the "Russian bots" and the like really?

Leave primarily won because:

1) a significant minority of the population is overtly racist
2) the failures of the centrist/neoliberal political consensus going back several years
3) the complacency, tin-earedness and at time outright awfulness of the official Remain campaign

None of this has much to do with Facebook memes, and they would have had precisely zero effect without it.


I would add, specifically, a refusal by David Cameron to go into conflict with his party colleagues who were talking absolute shit as part of the leave campaign. Voters had seen the way he treated the opposition week after week for years. They saw him treat Farage and Johnson with respect during the campaign. He, like May, couldn't stop putting party before country.

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 11:05 am 
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And trying to pivot almost overnight from blaming the EU for all our ills to campaigning to remain within it was never going to be a straightforward thing anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 11:19 am 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
And trying to pivot almost overnight from blaming the EU for all our ills to campaigning to remain within it was never going to be a straightforward thing anyway.

Plus the decades of outright lies about the EU from that Johnson in the Torygraph and the rest of the gutter press. My favourite is still the 'unlimited immigration' from the EU, when Blair and successors refused to use the limitations available under EU law .


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 11:57 am 
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https://moneyweek.com/496831/scrapheap- ... al-credit/

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 12:47 pm 
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PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Sorry if we've already done this

https://lustigletter.blogspot.com/2018/ ... er-to.html

Why Robin Lustig isn't going on the Peoples Vote march - I agree with a great deal of this.

I don't agree with this as an argument against another vote
Quote:
The risks of deepening the divisions already exposed by the last referendum are substantial.

Brexit is going to do that anyway.

What would be easier? Facing down remoaners while the economy's tanking, or facing down leavers when the pound's jumped and businesses are taking their UK investment plans off the shelf?

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 1:02 pm 
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Good morfternoon.

Quote:
Minor earthquakes detected near fracking site in Lancashire

One tremor was magnitude 0.3, the level beyond which experts say fracking has to proceed with caution
(Guardian)


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/20/minor-earthquakes-detected-near-cuadrilla-fracking-site-in-lancashire


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 1:14 pm 
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"Brexit is going to do that anyway" - up to a point, this is true.

But it may be better in the long term to make Brexit's advocates own their creation, rather than give them the mother of all "stabbed in the back" narratives.

I'm not dead set against another vote, but nobody has yet credibly explained how it can actually be brought about - or how the resultant fallout can be successfully managed.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 1:18 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
nobody has yet credibly explained how it can actually be brought about - or how the resultant fallout can be successfully managed.

We can say the same for brexit itself, that's the trouble.

I'm going out in the garden while it's sunny. Later.

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 1:26 pm 
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AK 1.14 - I'm afraid the brexiteers will always claim that any future failure will be caused by the inheritors not being radical enough, ex: reducing capital gains tax to a crazy low level, closing the Health and Safety Exec ETC

That's in the event of a hard brexit. Any Norway-type solution is already a betrayal , and so on !

As with the 'bankers' and other miscreants after the GFC, Impunity rules .


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 1:27 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
AK 1.14 - I'm afraid the brexiteers will always claim that any future failure will be caused by the inheritors not being radical enough, ex: reducing capital gains tax to a crazy low level, closing the Health and Safety Exec ETC

That's in the event of a hard brexit. Any Norway-type solution is already a betrayal , and so on !

As with the 'bankers' and other miscreants after the GFC, Impunity rules .


Oh of course they will claim that, but not everybody has to believe them.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Gilsey -- "I'm going out in the garden while it's sunny. Later."

Sunny here too, you set a good example ! Bifn.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 1:32 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
frog222 wrote:
AK 1.14 - I'm afraid the brexiteers will always claim that any future failure will be caused by the inheritors not being radical enough, ex: reducing capital gains tax to a crazy low level, closing the Health and Safety Exec ETC That's in the event of a hard brexit. Any Norway-type solution is already a betrayal , and so on !

As with the 'bankers' and other miscreants after the GFC, Impunity rules .


Oh of course they will claim that, but not everybody has to believe them.


17.4million did last time, and not very many appear to have changed their thinking ... it's all very similar to Trumpism, and other irrational mass movements .

sunny!


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 1:50 pm 
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There is actually a pro-EU argument for the UK leaving in a way. The UK's understandable decision not to join the Euro has already created a schism that threatens the unity of the EU project. Brexit could provide an answer to that by creating the conditions for the development of a two-speed Europe. But only if we remain a part of the single market. I get why some people from both leave and remain points of view might not support a soft Norway style brexit, but is no one willing to advocate for it? No one at all? When faced with unpalatable options the answer is to create more options. We can't reform the EU because we have decided to leave but we haven't decided to leave the single market....yet, and if we don't we can still have some input into its future development. I had rather expected at least some influential people to pursue this direction, to try to create consensus between leave and remain voting citizens (as opposed to the big name media cheerleaders who seek dominance rather than cooperation) by highlighting the advantages of what is essentially leaving but not leaving. Because either everyone will be happy or no one will be happy but at least no one will "win" at someone else's very real expense.

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 2:02 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
frog222 wrote:
AK 1.14 - I'm afraid the brexiteers will always claim that any future failure will be caused by the inheritors not being radical enough, ex: reducing capital gains tax to a crazy low level, closing the Health and Safety Exec ETC That's in the event of a hard brexit. Any Norway-type solution is already a betrayal , and so on !

As with the 'bankers' and other miscreants after the GFC, Impunity rules .


Oh of course they will claim that, but not everybody has to believe them.


17.4million did last time, and not very many appear to have changed their thinking ... it's all very similar to Trumpism, and other irrational mass movements .

sunny!


Brexit goes bad, and some *will* melt away. You will be left with the true believers, maybe a quarter of the population if that.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 2:51 pm 
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BREAKING: crowd size estimates have been revised up from 570,000 to 670,000 - 670,000 people demanding a #PeoplesVote on the Brexit deal.

Elsewhere, in Harrogate, at the Leave Means Leave rally there are reportedly 1,200 people in attendance.

Sky have reported that Nigel Farage claimed “millions” of people were streaming the pro-Brexit events; however, on Twitter, 190 people are watching the Harrogate event, while there are 12,000 views on its Facebook stream.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 3:03 pm 
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It's an impressive turnout.

I just had someone from Ipsos-Mori call doing a survey on attitudes to current affairs. Are you satisfied/dissatisfied with Theresa May's handling of Brexit, that sort of thing. I wonder who's commissioned it.

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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
There is actually a pro-EU argument for the UK leaving in a way. The UK's understandable decision not to join the Euro has already created a schism that threatens the unity of the EU project. Brexit could provide an answer to that by creating the conditions for the development of a two-speed Europe. But only if we remain a part of the single market. I get why some people from both leave and remain points of view might not support a soft Norway style brexit, but is no one willing to advocate for it? No one at all? When faced with unpalatable options the answer is to create more options. We can't reform the EU because we have decided to leave but we haven't decided to leave the single market....yet, and if we don't we can still have some input into its future development. I had rather expected at least some influential people to pursue this direction, to try to create consensus between leave and remain voting citizens (as opposed to the big name media cheerleaders who seek dominance rather than cooperation) by highlighting the advantages of what is essentially leaving but not leaving. Because either everyone will be happy or no one will be happy but at least no one will "win" at someone else's very real expense.

Nick Boles advocates Norway but only as an interim on the way to the sunny uplands of Magic Canada -- http://betterbrexit.org.uk/

Interesting news on that demo !


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 3:42 pm 
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I was going to ask if the Met had estimated the turnout , but ...

" The People's Vote campaign said stewards on the route estimated 670,000 were taking part.

Scotland Yard said it was not able to estimate the size of the crowd. "
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45925542

Either it's Austerity, again, or it was politically more convenient not to count ?

Or there were just too many people, so they didn't count for the 2003 anti Iraq Invasion one either ?

Other suggestions welcome .


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 3:59 pm 
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This whole "Brexit" business must present a real headache for those charged with drafting Labour's next manifesto. So many permutations to be taking into account.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 4:54 pm 
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Willow904 wrote:
There is actually a pro-EU argument for the UK leaving in a way. The UK's understandable decision not to join the Euro has already created a schism that threatens the unity of the EU project. Brexit could provide an answer to that by creating the conditions for the development of a two-speed Europe. But only if we remain a part of the single market. I get why some people from both leave and remain points of view might not support a soft Norway style brexit, but is no one willing to advocate for it? No one at all? When faced with unpalatable options the answer is to create more options. We can't reform the EU because we have decided to leave but we haven't decided to leave the single market....yet, and if we don't we can still have some input into its future development. I had rather expected at least some influential people to pursue this direction, to try to create consensus between leave and remain voting citizens (as opposed to the big name media cheerleaders who seek dominance rather than cooperation) by highlighting the advantages of what is essentially leaving but not leaving. Because either everyone will be happy or no one will be happy but at least no one will "win" at someone else's very real expense.

I truly hope this is what Labour will propose once it is (as it pretty much is) clear that there are no sensible alternatives.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 5:50 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
I was going to ask if the Met had estimated the turnout , but ...

" The People's Vote campaign said stewards on the route estimated 670,000 were taking part.

Scotland Yard said it was not able to estimate the size of the crowd. "
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45925542

Either it's Austerity, again, or it was politically more convenient not to count ?

Or there were just too many people, so they didn't count for the 2003 anti Iraq Invasion one either ?

Other suggestions welcome .


Don't know reason, but i googled & found Jacob's method (so at least I've learnt something)
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php ... test-like/


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 5:54 pm 
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So the Met DID have an opinion in 2003

One million march against war
Britain's largest ever demonstration saw hundreds of thousands Britons from all walks of life intent on delivering a stark message to Tony Blair.

"Some organisers from the Stop the War Coalition claimed that two million people had taken part in the protest - nearly five times the 400,000-plus crowd that took part in the Countryside March last September.

Officially, the police said that there were at least 750,000 demonstrators, but this did not include those who had gone dire
ct to Hyde Park. Officers privately said that the total appeared certain to have reached at least one million"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews ... t-war.html


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 5:59 pm 
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TBG 5.50 -- Well done !

So why no estimate from the Met today ... ?

Is that a question to the Home Secretary ?


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 6:45 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
TBG 5.50 -- Well done !

So why no estimate from the Met today ... ?

Is that a question to the Home Secretary ?


Well if the brightest minds of the Metropolitan police force can't come up with an answer ....


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 7:07 pm 
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tinybgoat wrote:
frog222 wrote:
TBG 5.50 -- Well done !
So why no estimate from the Met today ... ?
Is that a question to the Home Secretary ?


Well if the brightest minds of the Metropolitan police force can't come up with an answer ....

I'd like to know if this is the first time the Met hasn't got an 'estimate ' ...
A story there ?


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 7:19 pm 
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frog222 wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:
frog222 wrote:
TBG 5.50 -- Well done !
So why no estimate from the Met today ... ?
Is that a question to the Home Secretary ?


Well if the brightest minds of the Metropolitan police force can't come up with an answer ....

I'd like to know if this is the first time the Met hasn't got an 'estimate ' ...
A story there ?


Maybe, I'd have thought they'd need an ongoing approximate idea of numbers involved in an event, to be able to police it safely.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 9:11 pm 
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TBG 7.19 -- the remoaners aren't the angry mob, hardly anything to police there.

OTOH -- giving official confirmation of larger than expected numbers might not be popular in certain quarters .


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Apparently a figure of 700k is being quoted, reportedly via an "informed source".


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Image


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 9:16 pm 
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AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Apparently a figure of 700k is being quoted, reportedly via an "informed source".

But in 'normal times' the Met comes straight out with it, this time they said they could not (see above) .
A leak ? :-)


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 9:35 pm 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ga ... n-pictures

Some more very good placards


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 9:38 pm 
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https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... invitation
Quote:
Nicola Sturgeon has pulled out of a conference being jointly hosted by the BBC next month after learning that Donald Trump’s former strategist Steve Bannon had been invited to take part.

Scotland’s first minister said that allowing Bannon to freely express his opinions risked “legitimising or normalising far-right, racist views”.


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PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 10:03 pm 
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http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-m ... it-2018-10
"Theresa May told by the EU to 'take it or leave it' as Brexit talks risk collapse"
Some interesting views from EU side.
Quote:
However, the feeling in Brussels is that May was always going to have to disappoint at least one major stakeholder - and it's looking increasingly likely to be Arlene Foster's DUP.

Probably realistic, if it's accepted that DUP wishes probably can't be accommodated, does that increase May's options (although increasing importance of getting Labour support)

And early Halloween story

Quote:
It is a long-standing, widespread belief in Brussels that Britain's departure from the EU would take longer than the 21 months initially agreed between the two sides.
"Brexit is a process, not an event," a senior source in the European Parliament told BI.
"Switzerland has been negotiating with the EU for years on one thing or another. Imagine what it's going to be for the UK. It'll be decades, a permanent negotiation.
"And this is the easy bit. This is only the beginning."


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:14 am 
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” Before Instagram I used to waste so much time sitting around having to imagine what my friends’ food looked like ”


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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:22 am 
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:23 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
There is actually a pro-EU argument for the UK leaving in a way. The UK's understandable decision not to join the Euro has already created a schism that threatens the unity of the EU project. Brexit could provide an answer to that by creating the conditions for the development of a two-speed Europe. But only if we remain a part of the single market. I get why some people from both leave and remain points of view might not support a soft Norway style brexit, but is no one willing to advocate for it? No one at all? When faced with unpalatable options the answer is to create more options. We can't reform the EU because we have decided to leave but we haven't decided to leave the single market....yet, and if we don't we can still have some input into its future development. I had rather expected at least some influential people to pursue this direction, to try to create consensus between leave and remain voting citizens (as opposed to the big name media cheerleaders who seek dominance rather than cooperation) by highlighting the advantages of what is essentially leaving but not leaving. Because either everyone will be happy or no one will be happy but at least no one will "win" at someone else's very real expense.

Nicky Morgan in the Sunday Times.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:33 am 
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Ha! I was hoping for someone I could actually get behind!

Ed Miliband straight after the vote was saying things like if it's a choice between controlling immigration or staying in the single market to protect the economy the latter should come first.

I guess I expected more MPs to pick up that line and develop it, even if it wasn't party policy.

If Nicky Morgan is it, it's probably doomed as an option :(

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 10:35 am 
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So...two years on and still...

Quote:
Richard Corbett

Verified account

@RCorbettMEP
46m46 minutes ago
More
#Marr #Raab
UK: we want 2leave #customsunion
EU: but that means bordercontrols
UK: we promise,no controls on Irish border
EU: so you’ll put them between GB and NI?
DUP: no way
UK: we’ll keep whole UK in CU
ERG: no way
UK: temporarily,while we think of something else
All: WTF?


...a mess.

Gotta love the clueless rightwingers jeering at the marchers yesterday with the "We're leaving". Ask "How?" - silence.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:36 am 
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The usual answer is along the lines of "we just leave - simple!!" Often along with some (historically inaccurate) spiel about how "we stood alone during the war".

The pro-Brexit rally yesterday featured the slogan "No Deal? No Problem" - maybe they haven't grasped yet that merely asserting things does not in itself make them true.


Last edited by AnatolyKasparov on Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:36 am 
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Willow904 wrote:
Ed Miliband

sigh

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2018 11:38 am 
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gilsey wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
Ed Miliband

sigh


Editor of the FT had a go at Corbyn for his absence yesterday.

The same editor who had his paper back David Cameron over Ed at the 2015 GE.


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