Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st October 2018
Posted: Sat 20 Oct, 2018 8:19 am
Morning all.
I'm not a fan of another referendum, butAn anonymously run influence campaign has spent more than £250,000 on Facebook encouraging British voters to email their MPs opposing Theresa May’s Brexit deal.
In adverts micro-targeted to individual constituencies, voters are exhorted to “tell your local MP to bin Chequers ....
..The campaign, which is estimated to have reached more than 10 million voters..”.
Thanks for that . I was going to ask if this was an Allotment DayPaulfromYorkshire wrote:Highly predictable Corbyn moment. Turns out he's in Geneva meeting the former President of Chile Michelle Bachelet.I think there's a celebration of the 70th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
He does manage some pretty decent excuses for avoiding Peoples Vote events
Well, its not like both sides in the referendum didn't get up to some fairly dodgy stuff. And how influential were the "Russian bots" and the like really?tinybgoat wrote:https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-deal
"£250,000 ad campaign urges voters to oppose May’s Brexit deal"I'm not a fan of another referendum, butAn anonymously run influence campaign has spent more than £250,000 on Facebook encouraging British voters to email their MPs opposing Theresa May’s Brexit deal.
In adverts micro-targeted to individual constituencies, voters are exhorted to “tell your local MP to bin Chequers ....
..The campaign, which is estimated to have reached more than 10 million voters..”.
Funny how marching for one is seen as not fully accepting a democratic process, whilst systematic attempts to sway the outcome of brexit just gets accepted.
I would add, specifically, a refusal by David Cameron to go into conflict with his party colleagues who were talking absolute shit as part of the leave campaign. Voters had seen the way he treated the opposition week after week for years. They saw him treat Farage and Johnson with respect during the campaign. He, like May, couldn't stop putting party before country.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well, its not like both sides in the referendum didn't get up to some fairly dodgy stuff. And how influential were the "Russian bots" and the like really?
Leave primarily won because:
1) a significant minority of the population is overtly racist
2) the failures of the centrist/neoliberal political consensus going back several years
3) the complacency, tin-earedness and at time outright awfulness of the official Remain campaign
None of this has much to do with Facebook memes, and they would have had precisely zero effect without it.
Plus the decades of outright lies about the EU from that Johnson in the Torygraph and the rest of the gutter press. My favourite is still the 'unlimited immigration' from the EU, when Blair and successors refused to use the limitations available under EU law .AnatolyKasparov wrote:And trying to pivot almost overnight from blaming the EU for all our ills to campaigning to remain within it was never going to be a straightforward thing anyway.
I don't agree with this as an argument against another votePaulfromYorkshire wrote:Sorry if we've already done this
https://lustigletter.blogspot.com/2018/ ... er-to.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Why Robin Lustig isn't going on the Peoples Vote march - I agree with a great deal of this.
Brexit is going to do that anyway.The risks of deepening the divisions already exposed by the last referendum are substantial.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... lancashireMinor earthquakes detected near fracking site in Lancashire
One tremor was magnitude 0.3, the level beyond which experts say fracking has to proceed with caution
(Guardian)
We can say the same for brexit itself, that's the trouble.AnatolyKasparov wrote:nobody has yet credibly explained how it can actually be brought about - or how the resultant fallout can be successfully managed.
Oh of course they will claim that, but not everybody has to believe them.frog222 wrote:AK 1.14 - I'm afraid the brexiteers will always claim that any future failure will be caused by the inheritors not being radical enough, ex: reducing capital gains tax to a crazy low level, closing the Health and Safety Exec ETC
That's in the event of a hard brexit. Any Norway-type solution is already a betrayal , and so on !
As with the 'bankers' and other miscreants after the GFC, Impunity rules .
17.4million did last time, and not very many appear to have changed their thinking ... it's all very similar to Trumpism, and other irrational mass movements .AnatolyKasparov wrote:Oh of course they will claim that, but not everybody has to believe them.frog222 wrote:AK 1.14 - I'm afraid the brexiteers will always claim that any future failure will be caused by the inheritors not being radical enough, ex: reducing capital gains tax to a crazy low level, closing the Health and Safety Exec ETC That's in the event of a hard brexit. Any Norway-type solution is already a betrayal , and so on !
As with the 'bankers' and other miscreants after the GFC, Impunity rules .
Brexit goes bad, and some *will* melt away. You will be left with the true believers, maybe a quarter of the population if that.frog222 wrote:17.4million did last time, and not very many appear to have changed their thinking ... it's all very similar to Trumpism, and other irrational mass movements .AnatolyKasparov wrote:Oh of course they will claim that, but not everybody has to believe them.frog222 wrote:AK 1.14 - I'm afraid the brexiteers will always claim that any future failure will be caused by the inheritors not being radical enough, ex: reducing capital gains tax to a crazy low level, closing the Health and Safety Exec ETC That's in the event of a hard brexit. Any Norway-type solution is already a betrayal , and so on !
As with the 'bankers' and other miscreants after the GFC, Impunity rules .
sunny!
Nick Boles advocates Norway but only as an interim on the way to the sunny uplands of Magic Canada -- http://betterbrexit.org.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Willow904 wrote:There is actually a pro-EU argument for the UK leaving in a way. The UK's understandable decision not to join the Euro has already created a schism that threatens the unity of the EU project. Brexit could provide an answer to that by creating the conditions for the development of a two-speed Europe. But only if we remain a part of the single market. I get why some people from both leave and remain points of view might not support a soft Norway style brexit, but is no one willing to advocate for it? No one at all? When faced with unpalatable options the answer is to create more options. We can't reform the EU because we have decided to leave but we haven't decided to leave the single market....yet, and if we don't we can still have some input into its future development. I had rather expected at least some influential people to pursue this direction, to try to create consensus between leave and remain voting citizens (as opposed to the big name media cheerleaders who seek dominance rather than cooperation) by highlighting the advantages of what is essentially leaving but not leaving. Because either everyone will be happy or no one will be happy but at least no one will "win" at someone else's very real expense.
I truly hope this is what Labour will propose once it is (as it pretty much is) clear that there are no sensible alternatives.Willow904 wrote:There is actually a pro-EU argument for the UK leaving in a way. The UK's understandable decision not to join the Euro has already created a schism that threatens the unity of the EU project. Brexit could provide an answer to that by creating the conditions for the development of a two-speed Europe. But only if we remain a part of the single market. I get why some people from both leave and remain points of view might not support a soft Norway style brexit, but is no one willing to advocate for it? No one at all? When faced with unpalatable options the answer is to create more options. We can't reform the EU because we have decided to leave but we haven't decided to leave the single market....yet, and if we don't we can still have some input into its future development. I had rather expected at least some influential people to pursue this direction, to try to create consensus between leave and remain voting citizens (as opposed to the big name media cheerleaders who seek dominance rather than cooperation) by highlighting the advantages of what is essentially leaving but not leaving. Because either everyone will be happy or no one will be happy but at least no one will "win" at someone else's very real expense.
Don't know reason, but i googled & found Jacob's method (so at least I've learnt something)frog222 wrote:I was going to ask if the Met had estimated the turnout , but ...
" The People's Vote campaign said stewards on the route estimated 670,000 were taking part.
Scotland Yard said it was not able to estimate the size of the crowd. "
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45925542" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Either it's Austerity, again, or it was politically more convenient not to count ?
Or there were just too many people, so they didn't count for the 2003 anti Iraq Invasion one either ?
Other suggestions welcome .
Well if the brightest minds of the Metropolitan police force can't come up with an answer ....frog222 wrote:TBG 5.50 -- Well done !
So why no estimate from the Met today ... ?
Is that a question to the Home Secretary ?
I'd like to know if this is the first time the Met hasn't got an 'estimate ' ...tinybgoat wrote:Well if the brightest minds of the Metropolitan police force can't come up with an answer ....frog222 wrote:TBG 5.50 -- Well done !
So why no estimate from the Met today ... ?
Is that a question to the Home Secretary ?
Maybe, I'd have thought they'd need an ongoing approximate idea of numbers involved in an event, to be able to police it safely.frog222 wrote:I'd like to know if this is the first time the Met hasn't got an 'estimate ' ...tinybgoat wrote:Well if the brightest minds of the Metropolitan police force can't come up with an answer ....frog222 wrote:TBG 5.50 -- Well done !
So why no estimate from the Met today ... ?
Is that a question to the Home Secretary ?
A story there ?
But in 'normal times' the Met comes straight out with it, this time they said they could not (see above) .AnatolyKasparov wrote:Apparently a figure of 700k is being quoted, reportedly via an "informed source".
Nicola Sturgeon has pulled out of a conference being jointly hosted by the BBC next month after learning that Donald Trump’s former strategist Steve Bannon had been invited to take part.
Scotland’s first minister said that allowing Bannon to freely express his opinions risked “legitimising or normalising far-right, racist views”.
Probably realistic, if it's accepted that DUP wishes probably can't be accommodated, does that increase May's options (although increasing importance of getting Labour support)However, the feeling in Brussels is that May was always going to have to disappoint at least one major stakeholder - and it's looking increasingly likely to be Arlene Foster's DUP.
It is a long-standing, widespread belief in Brussels that Britain's departure from the EU would take longer than the 21 months initially agreed between the two sides.
"Brexit is a process, not an event," a senior source in the European Parliament told BI.
"Switzerland has been negotiating with the EU for years on one thing or another. Imagine what it's going to be for the UK. It'll be decades, a permanent negotiation.
"And this is the easy bit. This is only the beginning."
Nicky Morgan in the Sunday Times.Willow904 wrote:There is actually a pro-EU argument for the UK leaving in a way. The UK's understandable decision not to join the Euro has already created a schism that threatens the unity of the EU project. Brexit could provide an answer to that by creating the conditions for the development of a two-speed Europe. But only if we remain a part of the single market. I get why some people from both leave and remain points of view might not support a soft Norway style brexit, but is no one willing to advocate for it? No one at all? When faced with unpalatable options the answer is to create more options. We can't reform the EU because we have decided to leave but we haven't decided to leave the single market....yet, and if we don't we can still have some input into its future development. I had rather expected at least some influential people to pursue this direction, to try to create consensus between leave and remain voting citizens (as opposed to the big name media cheerleaders who seek dominance rather than cooperation) by highlighting the advantages of what is essentially leaving but not leaving. Because either everyone will be happy or no one will be happy but at least no one will "win" at someone else's very real expense.
...a mess.Richard Corbett
Verified account
@RCorbettMEP
46m46 minutes ago
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#Marr #Raab
UK: we want 2leave #customsunion
EU: but that means bordercontrols
UK: we promise,no controls on Irish border
EU: so you’ll put them between GB and NI?
DUP: no way
UK: we’ll keep whole UK in CU
ERG: no way
UK: temporarily,while we think of something else
All: WTF?
sighWillow904 wrote: Ed Miliband
Editor of the FT had a go at Corbyn for his absence yesterday.gilsey wrote:sighWillow904 wrote: Ed Miliband