Friday 16th November 2018

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 6:39 am

Morning

Funny - the topic autofilled itself. Almost liked I'd typed Friday 16th November 2018 previously......

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:46 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng ... parliament" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 8:41 am

"The requested post on lost glasses does not exist"
My speciality is looking for them when they're already perched on top of my head ...

PS Thanks to SKY for the report

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 9:30 am

Morning all.

Anyone catch the first one of Inside The Foreign Office last night?

I found it very interesting and quite entertaining - especially Boris' first address to the FCO staff - there were some pictured who clearly were in no mood to applaud when he was introduced and his little speech was cringeworthy stuff.

The staff must have been thinking "What have we done to deserve him?"

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 10:01 am

Gove has clearly decided he likes the ministerial car and trappings of office too much to want to give them up.

Cue cries of "Traitor!" from Brexiteers...

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 10:09 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.
Anyone catch the first one of Inside The Foreign Office last night?
I found it very interesting and quite entertaining - especially Boris' first address to the FCO staff - there were some pictured who clearly were in no mood to applaud when he was introduced and his little speech was cringeworthy stuff.
The staff must have been thinking "What have we done to deserve him?"

No TV here, but cringeworthy sums it up !
'' For those who know what happens next, which is everyone, there are almost Shakespearean levels of dramatic irony in its opening scenes. Foreign Office staff are summoned to the grand Durbar Court to hear from the foreign secretary, a few days after the general election in which his government committed slow-motion harakiri, heralding his arrival with the kind of subtly underwhelming applause of which only the professionally polite are truly capable. "
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 35801.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What a waste of time , for the staff,

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 10:24 am

If you believe in the 'Swiss model' for Brexit, I need to give you a reality check from Switzerland
'Switzerland did have a vote, which almost led to us ripping up one of our main treaties with the EU – but because we nearly always vote again after an initial referendum, we didn't end up following that path of destruction'

"Another particularity of the Swiss system is that whenever a popular referendum or initiative is approved by the people, our parliament then has to decide how to draft a law to implement it. In doing so, they have to make sure it can be enforced and that it does not contradict other laws and treaties. Sometimes, that seems impossible. So in order to respect what they believe is the “will” of the people, they take the liberty of interpreting very loosely the terms of the referendum. (Does that ring a bell?) "

One difference I've noticed in comments , media, is that it appears that many Brits, or is it just the English,, think of voting as a chore ?

The Swiss work harder at their democracy ? Is there much less of the two deaf people shouting at each other of other systems, or rather a sensible structure for moderating it ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 33416.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 11:12 am

https://cer.eu/insights/what-happens-if ... rexit-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WHAT HAPPENS IF PARLIAMENT REJECTS MAY'S BREXIT DEAL?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 11:29 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Gove has clearly decided he likes the ministerial car and trappings of office too much to want to give them up.

Cue cries of "Traitor!" from Brexiteers...

Andrew Lilico was on that case yesterday afternoon......

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 12:41 pm

Simon Fraser
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David Davis was a terrible #Brexit Secretary. He could hardly be bothered to go to Brussels & rapidly lost respect there. Preposterous for him now to suggest that EU deliberately delayed negotiations. They spent months waiting for him to engage..

The quality of people put in that key position is just alarming and has led to where we are now.

It's almost comical that Brexiteers claim that it is Remoaners fault...

Edit - and you can see why No 10 was forced to take the lead on negotiations.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 12:51 pm

Somebody on BBC 5Live had Nadine Dorries on after midday, and she was allowed to spout on about

"the rest of the world apart from the EU operates on WTO terms" !

I only listen very recently to it, sociological experimenting, as John Pienaar and some others are quite good, but that was total unopposed garbage . I'll check on the listening figures !

EDIT 5 listeners million a week https://media.info/radio/stations/bbc-r ... ng-figures" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's a lot of people to be exposed to factfree bull on a public radio service.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 12:52 pm

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

Nothing we don't already know, but some of the descriptions in the report are pretty eye-catching:

The UK government has inflicted “great misery” on its people with “punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous” austerity policies driven by a political desire to undertake social re-engineering rather than economic necessity, the United Nations poverty envoy has found.

Well we know it isn't economic necessity because it's costing us more money to find ways to deny people benefits than it would cost to just give them benefits but it's nice to see it officially confirmed by an objective expert.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 1:15 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... icide-risk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 1:20 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Simon Fraser
‏
Verified account

@SimonFraser00
5h5 hours ago
More
David Davis was a terrible #Brexit Secretary. He could hardly be bothered to go to Brussels & rapidly lost respect there. Preposterous for him now to suggest that EU deliberately delayed negotiations. They spent months waiting for him to engage..
The quality of people put in that key position is just alarming and has led to where we are now.

It's almost comical that Brexiteers claim that it is Remoaners fault...

Edit - and you can see why No 10 was forced to take the lead on negotiations.

And there are now rumours May will formalise that by taking the post herself. Would surely be a red rag to her critics, though?

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 1:22 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... icide-risk

Wednesday's Aditya is an excellent overall one on the UN visit - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... poverty-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" Over the weekend, I asked Alston whether he heard any echoes between British experiences and the testimonies he heard last December while investigating Donald Trump’s US. “In many ways, you in the UK are far ahead of the US,” he said. He thinks “the Republicans would be ecstatic” to have pushed through the kind of austerity that the Tories have inflicted on the British."

I think there's much variability between States, but the increasingly successful rightwing ideology is the same one . Tides turn tho ...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 3:05 pm

Calm after the storm today, innit?

(or maybe more accurately, the calm before the next one)

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 3:59 pm

'Jack of Kent' blog:
"Why the draft withdrawal agreement may be the only responsible option"
http://jackofkent.com/2018/11/why-the-d ... le-option/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 4:02 pm

Beth Rigby
@BethRigby
BREAK: She’s back! Amber Rudd new work and pensions secretary
3:56 PM · Nov 16, 2018 ·

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 4:10 pm

Laura Kuenssberg
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@bbclaurak
4h4 hours ago
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1. Those who have gone public-Andrea Jenkyns, Andrew Bridgen, Philip Davies, James Duddridge, Anne Marie Morris, Lawrence Robertson, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nadine Dorries, Simon Clarke, Steve Baker, Henry Smith, Maria Caulfield, Sheryll Murray, Lee Rowley, Martin Vickers, Peter Bone

If you wanted to list some of the very worst MPs you couldn't go far wrong with this bunch of wrong 'uns.

Wasn't Bridgen called a "something twerp" in the Commons yesterday?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 4:44 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
Laura Kuenssberg
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Verified account

@bbclaurak
4h4 hours ago
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1. Those who have gone public-Andrea Jenkyns, Andrew Bridgen, Philip Davies, James Duddridge, Anne Marie Morris, Lawrence Robertson, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Nadine Dorries, Simon Clarke, Steve Baker, Henry Smith, Maria Caulfield, Sheryll Murray, Lee Rowley, Martin Vickers, Peter Bone
If you wanted to list some of the very worst MPs you couldn't go far wrong with this bunch of wrong 'uns.

Wasn't Bridgen called a "something twerp" in the Commons yesterday?

.... gone a bit 'public-Andrea Jenkyns' (misread it, but might catch on)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 4:45 pm

Who?

Carl Dinnen
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@carldinnen
16m16 minutes ago
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NEW The new Brexit Secretary is Stephen Barclay MP, previously a junior Health Minister. But his brief will not include negotiating with the EU which Mrs May will take sole charge of.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 4:51 pm

"Brexit: Liam Fox admits 'a deal is better than no deal' as he backs Theresa May's plan"
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... 37086.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In a message apparently aimed at rebel MPs, Dr Fox said: “I hope that we all take a rational and reasonable view of this. We are not elected to do what we want, we are elected to do what’s in the national interest.

“Ultimately I hope that across parliament we recognise that a deal is better than no deal. Businesses do require certainty, confidence as they go forward for their planning.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 4:54 pm

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/c ... ys-report/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Care charges are driving disabled people into debt, says report

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 5:05 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Who?

Carl Dinnen
‏
Verified account

@carldinnen
16m16 minutes ago
More
NEW The new Brexit Secretary is Stephen Barclay MP, previously a junior Health Minister. But his brief will not include negotiating with the EU which Mrs May will take sole charge of.

That's exactly why he has been appointed, I suspect.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 5:23 pm

Jessica Elgot
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@jessicaelgot
Follow Follow @jessicaelgot
More Jessica Elgot Retweeted Tim Shipman
Thank you for your loyalty Amber, here’s universal credit

S'OK, she can always blame her predecessors...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 6:13 pm

At this juncture I would like to point out "fascistically intended "was a common phrase of mine some years ago.Of course ignorance may lead to fascistic consequences,IDS as an obvious example but now carried on by Hancock and his musings,because everybody knows a banana stuck up your anus prevents social care and all that pays for itself independent living nonsense.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 6:17 pm

Didn't watch it, but it appears that Claire Perry libelled Corbyn on last night's QT?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:00 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Didn't watch it, but it appears that Claire Perry libelled Corbyn on last night's QT?

TSGO's QT Report here

viewtopic.php?p=204418#p204418" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:02 pm

Talking of which.....

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:04 pm

?????????????? .............

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:07 pm

Crace's week ?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... e-question" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:14 pm

By-election round up

Where is it?

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:33 pm

The Archers provided a good radio window for the Beeb’s excellent 15 minute Histories of 1918

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00014lk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The received anglo-saxon 'common knowledge' is that post WW1 was more or less peaceful ... until the Crash and General Strike, while Germany Austria and the new Poland , Ukraine etc were in fact immediately riven by ethnic cleansing, new border controls after the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Common Market (see Brexit) , starvation from the continuation of the wartime blockade, and so on.

An enlightening little series ! Far from the idiocies of 5LiveSport ( 12.51) and Andrew Neil --

BBC women complain after Andrew Neil tweet about Observer journalist

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/ ... cadwalladr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:37 pm

Well, this is quite funny...

Greg Hands
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@GregHands
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Interesting passage from Leo McKinstry’s biography of Geoff Boycott when the England team had to run out their own captain (Boycott) for the benefit of the team. England went on to win by 174 runs.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 7:53 pm

I eventually filed this Fintan O'Toole long read under "Brexit" , tho other more psychiatric possibilities did present themselves first ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tan-otoole" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The paranoid fantasy behind Brexit

In the dark imagination of English reactionaries, Britain is always a defeated nation – and the EU is the imaginary invader

Remember the two twerps dressed as WW2 pilots for the England v Germany football in South Africa ?

0---- 4 !

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 8:05 pm

Gotta love some of the things in here...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... lietEUzcHM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My favourite...

Their customer David Miller, who described himself as a welder and an evangelist, said he felt a little sorry for Theresa May. “She had this dumped on her and I think she’s handling it as best she can. She’s under immense pressure.”

Miller said he voted to leave because he thought Brussels imposed some “silly” laws on the UK. “Why should we be dominated by them?” But he also had an unusual main reason for supporting leave. “I follow the prophesies in the Bible and a split in Europe was prophesied. Europe will never unite again. God has said so.”

Post by **refitman** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 8:10 pm

Caroline Flint can do one. Terrible piece in the Graun.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 8:11 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Gotta love some of the things in here...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... lietEUzcHM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My favourite...

Their customer David Miller, who described himself as a welder and an evangelist, said he felt a little sorry for Theresa May. “She had this dumped on her and I think she’s handling it as best she can. She’s under immense pressure.”

Miller said he voted to leave because he thought Brussels imposed some “silly” laws on the UK. “Why should we be dominated by them?” But he also had an unusual main reason for supporting leave. “I follow the prophesies in the Bible and a split in Europe was prophesied. Europe will never unite again. God has said so.”

Morons, to a (wo)man.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 8:37 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:By-election round up

Where is it?

Slight delay I'm afraid, should appear over the weekend

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 8:38 pm

refitman wrote:Caroline Flint can do one. Terrible piece in the Graun.

Linky ?

Post by **refitman** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 8:42 pm

frog222 wrote:
refitman wrote:Caroline Flint can do one. Terrible piece in the Graun.
Linky ?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -eu-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 8:56 pm

Sounds like Flint can't be bothered to try and explain when her constituents ask her "Why haven't we left yet?"

I'm not saying she should tell them they're idiots but a little "Well, it's a bit more complicated than people think" wouldn't go amiss.

Not sure that having a dig at your fellow Labour MPs is that impressive really.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 9:05 pm

refitman wrote:Caroline Flint can do one. Terrible piece in the Graun.

"I have no idea what is going to happen next. The Government is imploding. While chaos reigns, few are focusing on the details. MPs promote agendas that have little to do with the agreement. Debate remains polarised."

Why would an MP admitting this decide writing more and submitting it is confusing

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -eu-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 9:11 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Sounds like Flint can't be bothered to try and explain when her constituents ask her "Why haven't we left yet?"

I'm not saying she should tell them they're idiots but a little "Well, it's a bit more complicated than people think" wouldn't go amiss.

Not sure that having a dig at your fellow Labour MPs is that impressive really.

It's unimpressive and not Labour policy.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 9:12 pm

Good-evening, everyone

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 9:25 pm

tinybgoat wrote:'Jack of Kent' blog:
"Why the draft withdrawal agreement may be the only responsible option"
http://jackofkent.com/2018/11/why-the-d ... le-option/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"...if there is a development which means the UK seeks an extension of the Article 50 period, or even revokes the notification, then the ultimatum of this text or No Deal becomes far less urgent."

Other options exist for the UK
Someone call Flint and let her know

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 9:26 pm

Alan Finlayson
‏

@ProfAFinlayson
24h24 hours ago
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I do feel like I wasted a lot of time learning (and teaching) elaborate theories for explaining outcomes in British Politics, on the day it becomes evident the determining factor is that the people in charge are utter dipshits.

Professor of Political & Social Theory at UEA (it's a university in Norwich).

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 9:36 pm

Tory government have nothing more and they'll do whatever it takes to remain in leadership at the expense of people and country
It doesn't have to be this way. The current agreement proposed is between Tory government and the EU. The EU won't tweak this agreement for a different UK government, that's likely true. It can be thrown out in its entirety.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 9:39 pm

gilsey wrote:Alan Finlayson
‏

@ProfAFinlayson
24h24 hours ago
More
I do feel like I wasted a lot of time learning (and teaching) elaborate theories for explaining outcomes in British Politics, on the day it becomes evident the determining factor is that the people in charge are utter dipshits.

Professor of Political & Social Theory at UEA (it's a university in Norwich).

Yes, they're scarier than hell
Look what they'll do for power
They'll wreck the country

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 16 Nov, 2018 10:16 pm

Bad news. Johnston Press which owns, among many titles, the Yorkshire Post has gone into administration.

While definitely Tory, the Yorkshire Post maintains a level of independence and journalistic standards that I admire. And many of the smaller local papers do great work too. Hope they all survive.

PTO