Monday 19th November 2018

Post by **refitman** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 7:04 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 7:58 am

#Anna Soubrey

No ifs no buts no excuses this is a disgrace & NOT what I voted for when supporting much needed benefit reforms. “Benefit cuts hit CJDv sufferer” a more compassionate headline BTW

Exactly what she voted for.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:00 am

Tsk don't they even skim read.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:02 am

In black and white and easily understood,with a minimum of effort.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:12 am

Yer actual Tory bastard and the I can't believe I'm a Tory bastard results in the same.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:31 am

Don't blame I only repeatedly voted for it.
Take SOME responsibility for a change,instead of flailing about in justifying the unjustifiable.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:37 am

And screw "compassion",basic human rights.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:07 am

"deserving of our sympathy"a terrible way to view/decide things.Look pathetic for the camera stuff.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:08 am

I have zero compassion for anybody,least of all myself.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:17 am

Of course it is naff all about the particular person,rather how Soubrey views herself/others may view her.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:24 am

Good morfternoon.

Jo Johnson backs bid to force Treasury to reveal no-Brexit forecasts

Ex-minister expected to make first speech from backbenches to support amendment to the finance bill

Jo Johnson, the Conservative MP who resigned as a minister to back a second Brexit referendum, will on Monday throw his weight behind a bid to force the government to publish economic forecasts that compare its deal with remaining in the European Union. (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -forecasts

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 10:15 am

Apparently, the ERG is now aiming for "Super Canada".

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 10:27 am

Boris Johnson's unused £320,000 second hand water cannon sold - for £11,025

Three water cannon bought and refurbished for more than £320,000 while Boris Johnson was London Mayor have been sold for just £11,025. As the Press Association reports, the current mayor Sadiq Khan announced today that “we have managed to finally get rid of them” as it was revealed they had been sold to a firm that will dismantle them and export the parts. The machines were bought by Johnson from Germany in 2014 - crucially before their use had been licensed on the UK mainland. The then home secretary, Theresa May, banned their use - rendering them worthless. (Politics Live, Guardian)

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 10:37 am

PorFavor wrote:Apparently, the ERG is now aiming for "Super Canada".

It seems to have escaped their notice that this is the Withdrawal Agreement, not the future trade deal.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 10:37 am

AH that's an impressive (and justified) rant about Soubry there.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 10:43 am

Lots of comment recently on the media reporting from eg Boston, Lincs on what people think about brexit, so here's something different from the Obs, I don't think we've had it.
Nothing in it to cheer us up. God help us.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ency-esher" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“This country has voted,” says Hill definitively, although she says it didn’t know what it was voting for. “You’ll destroy all faith in voting in the future. We have to go through with it, whether we made the right decision or not.” Just as oddly, given her concern about the economic implications of Brexit, she’d prefer a no-deal option to what’s on the table.

After talking at length to Raab’s “neglected silent mainstream majority”, I began to appreciate why they might be neglected. What is most notable are the glaring contradictions: May is not up to the job, but she should stick it out. Brexit has been a disaster – and we should get out of Europe as soon as possible. And my personal favourite, that being in the EU has meant, as Hill claims, that the younger generation, including her children, can’t get on the property ladder, followed by the complaint that “property is dropping like a stone round here”.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 10:44 am

Can we now go back to simply laughing at Jacob Rees Mogg?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 11:09 am

The point is, the argument that "if we don't go through with Brexit it will destroy faith in voting" is a powerful one for many (including lots of remain supporters)

Which is why some of us have said from the start that efforts should be focused on getting the softest possible exit from the EU, not trying to reverse/override the referendum result.

Brexit might still not happen, but if so that will be as a result of events largely out of our control. And the Tories need to be made to own what would be a total humiliation for them.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 12:11 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point is, the argument that "if we don't go through with Brexit it will destroy faith in voting" is a powerful one for many (including lots of remain supporters)

Which is why some of us have said from the start that efforts should be focused on getting the softest possible exit from the EU, not trying to reverse/override the referendum result.

Brexit might still not happen, but if so that will be as a result of events largely out of our control. And the Tories need to be made to own what would be a total humiliation for them.

That argument carries a lot of weight, perhaps indicating that we should wait until public sentiment "evolves". The sting in the tail is what terms we would be offered if, in the future, the voting public decides that being out of the EU was not such a good idea after all. That's where the voice of a future Labour Government would come in very handy - and I feel that it will be needed sooner rather than later.

Edited - typo

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 12:53 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 12:55 pm

Thank you, Sky'sGoneOut, for your posts; they're a pleasure to read

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 1:23 pm

Always thought provoking even when you don't agree (and I often don't where the nuances of Brexit are concerned)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 1:29 pm

Sounds like May's speech given to Confederation of British Industry (CBI) about her withdrawal agreement didn't reassure them

Post by **refitman** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 1:32 pm

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citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 1:48 pm

citizenJA wrote:Sounds like May's speech given to Confederation of British Industry (CBI) about her withdrawal agreement didn't reassure them

UKIP is claiming the CBI approved; they didn't approve
I can't handle the lies and innuendo
it's crazy-making
I guess that's the point of it

Post by **adam** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 2:14 pm

Spain now starting to make noises about Gibraltar

Spanish Foreign Minister Josep Borrell said his government will need more clarity on the future status of Gibraltar before it’s ready to support the Brexit agreement.

(To be fair, it sounds like the headline overdoes it and they are just unclear about what's going on rather than queuing up to vote no).

Post by **adam** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 2:28 pm

If the DUP stand up to what they're saying and Labour the the other opposition parties (SNP, Lib Dem, PC, Green) vote down May's deal, then it will lose even if she can whip all of her MPs to support it, but only just. We're back in the territory of a handful of Labour MPs crossing the floor would change the outcome.

From the little I can see, in a 'no rebellion' scenario May can probably count on the independent unionist Sylvia Hermon as well as her whipped vote, which would put her on 317 (discounting non-voting Bercow and non-voting deputy speaker Laing) and everyone else on 322 (I think - discounting SF and two non-voting Labour deputy speakers). So three Labour MPs crossing the floor would change the outcome.

If the ERG rebel - even if just the ones who have said they have submitted letters - then it's very very difficult to see how this can possibly get through the commons, unless there is a major Labour rebellion.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 2:34 pm

At least one LibDem MP looks likely to vote with May. It does depend if there is a major Tory rebellion or not, but tbh I find it pretty hard to imagine one *not* happening.

Post by **adam** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 2:38 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:At least one LibDem MP looks likely to vote with May. It does depend if there is a major Tory rebellion or not, but tbh I find it pretty hard to imagine one *not* happening.

I think if you ignore some of the ERG's rhetoric about their size and so on but just think about the numbers who are out in public, according to this bbc story from this morning 25 tory MPs have said they have written. On that basis it looks very very unlikely that it could get through the commons - you might reasonably add to that people who have recently resigned but not publicly filed letters (which is another five I think) plus those who resigned last time but haven't publicly filed letters (another 3?) plus a couple from the other side of the party who are saying they can't support this (2?) - it reaches the point quickly where even if half of them voted loyally and the DUP stayed onside she could still lose.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 3:47 pm

IDS, Peter Lilley and Owen Paterson have just gone into Number 10

[BBC Laura K]

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 3:50 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:IDS, Peter Lilley and Owen Paterson have just gone into Number 10

[BBC Laura K]

with moving boxes?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 4:05 pm

Trouble for PM with Iain Duncan Smith, Owen Paterson, Lord Trimble in No 10 for meeting with PM.

They will spell out how they think Irish border issue can resolved with treaty. Feels inevitable she will reject.

Could we see letter of no confidence announced on steps of No 10?

[Telegraph Stephen Swinford]

Did Laura K mistake Trimble for Lilley?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 4:05 pm

Presumably Paterson will explain that badgers keep moving the border?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 4:21 pm

Have got into a strange habit of adding vowels for some reeason.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 4:25 pm

HindleA wrote:Have got into a strange habit of adding vowels for some reeason.

Irritable vowel syndrome?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 4:50 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
HindleA wrote:Have got into a strange habit of adding vowels for some reeason.
Irritable vowel syndrome?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 5:35 pm

Heather Stewart

The government is preparing to accept an amendment to the finance bill, tabled by Labour’s Chuka Umunna and the Conservative Anna Soubry, rather than face defeat tonight.

Signed by 11 Conservatives - enough to wipe out Theresa May’s wafer-thin majority - it would oblige the government to publish economic forecasts comparing the impact of its Brexit deal with remaining in the EU. (Politics Live, Guardian)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 5:49 pm

PfY getting far tooo good.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 5:54 pm

HindleA wrote:PfY getting far tooo good.

Ha!

Edited to add - Haaaa?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 6:40 pm

16:52
Corbyn says government’s Brexit agreement ‘locks in uncertainty’ for four years or more

Stuff like this really annoys me. Corbyn supported triggering article 50 and to May's hasty premature timetable so it's hypocritical to complain about the natural consequences of that, which includes the necessity of a transition period. We were never going to be able to negotiate a whole new relationship in two years. Even with a much clearer goal than we are getting from May there would still be uncertainty until a new relationship is signed sealed and delivered. This is just part of the uncertainty that is Brexit, of course it's going to be disruptive and longwinded, but the only way to avoid that is not to Brexit. If getting it right needs nearer 4 years than 2 then allowing the possibility of an extension is in our interests.

Oh and Corbyn said something on Sky that made it sound like he thought we would still automatically have the two years proposed for transition to thrash things out in even if the withdrawal agreement is rejected. Hopefully someone will "clarify" this misconception and quickly because he is looking hopelessly out of his depth. Without Starmer on board I would have zero faith in Labour right now. If Corbyn had a true grasp of what he was talking about he would not be so imprecise and woolly with his wording leading to such apparently clueless gaffes as this.

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frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 7:35 pm

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[youtube]pLdevOPCNdE[/youtube]

€0.65 more tax on diesel in January ...
Bloody great fire at the roundabout on the way home from the beach, but I know the back lanes .

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 7:46 pm

Adam Payne
@adampayne26
The ERG isn’t a happy family. One member tells me the letter-wavers look like bullies. “This is all going to fizzle out and Moggy and Baker will get singed.” They added that they could back the deal: “If Cameron offered what May is offering, I would have snapped his hand off.”
3:19 PM · Nov 19, 2018 from London, England · Twitter for iPhone

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I don't know if this is representative or not but I must admit I did struggle to understand Rees-Mogg's latest move. You'd have thought he'd only have made a big, public deal sending in his letter if he knew it would kick the whole shebang off, yet all he's ended up with is a damp squib. Has he been manouvered into a mistake?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:08 pm

Robert Peston
‏
Verified account

@Peston
21m21 minutes ago
More
The DUP’s 10 MPs will be abstaining on pretty much every finance bill vote tonight, I understand. This is to put the government on warning that the party is close to ripping up the “confidence and supply” agreement that allows @theresa_may to govern. This is a serious blow to....the PM’s authority. And is all down to the DUP’s pessimism that the PM will amend in any significant way the EU Withdrawal Agreement that it sees as driving a regulatory wedge between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. And if Tory MPs see their industrial action as......increasing the risk of an imminent general election, they will launch that long-planned and delayed coup against her pronto.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:09 pm

I don't think we see how Westminster, media and power operates sometimes

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 8:10 pm

Crace 20.02 !

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... olated-may" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:04 pm

Sadly this seems to be the point when it dawns on people...

Leave-supporting Llanelli left reeling as manufacturing industry moves out due to Brexit

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/ ... xit/08/11/

The Welsh town of Llanelli – which voted 56.7 per cent to leave the EU in the referendum – has been left reeling after a major manufacturer upped sticks due to Brexit.

Global firm Schaeffler announced this week that it is to close its plant in Llanelli due to uncertainty over Britain’s departure from the European Union.

The closure was described as the “tremor that will lead to the Brexit earthquake” in the Welsh Assembly, with Juergen Ziegler, the company’s regional CEO, saying that the “need to plan for various complex scenarios” due to Brexit had played a part in their decision to leave Wales.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:27 pm

It's cold here now
West Midlands

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:30 pm

citizenJA wrote:It's cold here now
West Midlands

It's bloody freezing here
South Coast

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:38 pm

Just had a brief (electric) powercut.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 19 Nov, 2018 9:49 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Adam Payne
@adampayne26
The ERG isn’t a happy family. One member tells me the letter-wavers look like bullies. “This is all going to fizzle out and Moggy and Baker will get singed.” They added that they could back the deal: “If Cameron offered what May is offering, I would have snapped his hand off.”
3:19 PM · Nov 19, 2018 from London, England · Twitter for iPhone
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I don't know if this is representative or not but I must admit I did struggle to understand Rees-Mogg's latest move. You'd have thought he'd only have made a big, public deal sending in his letter if he knew it would kick the whole shebang off, yet all he's ended up with is a damp squib. Has he been manouvered into a mistake?

Well, some "Brexiters" hadn't been entirely truthful, apparently.

Yes, I was surprised, too.

Edited to add - PTO