Tuesday 20th November 2018

A home from home
Forum rules
Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
User avatar
refitman
Site Admin
Posts: 7692
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:22 pm
Location: Wombwell, United Kingdom

Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by refitman »

Morning all.
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.parliament.uk/business/comm ... nch-17-19/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Inquiry launched on effectiveness of welfare system
frog222
Prime Minister
Posts: 5340
Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by frog222 »

DM's change of tack --
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 9de3ff1721" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Rather lively BTL :-)
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... new-report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Charities risk becoming irrelevant, warns new report
frog222
Prime Minister
Posts: 5340
Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by frog222 »

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... new-report
Charities risk becoming irrelevant, warns new report
I liked this: " There is no business plan, and no targets, no outcome measures, no big marketing pushes."

Some charities have become businesses like any other, except that there are no dividends to pay out to shareholders. The real objective is secure well-paid jobs and perks for the management , as in for-profit companies . One example of the scale of that: https://www.thirdsector.co.uk/former-ch ... le/1497308" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good BTL ...
gilsey
Prime Minister
Posts: 6175
Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 10:51 am

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by gilsey »

Wren-Lewis on the UN report, highlighting something I hadn't seen reported before, although it's pretty much what we here think.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the policies put in place since 2010 are usually discussed under the rubric of austerity. But this framing leads the inquiry in the wrong direction. In the area of poverty-related policy, the evidence points to the conclusion that the driving force has not been economic but rather a commitment to achieving radical social re-engineering.
I assume this is the 'political language' Rudd was complaining about.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by HindleA »

But exactly as they themselves frame it.
User avatar
RogerOThornhill
Prime Minister
Posts: 11115
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Morning all.

So the news today...

The price of shares in JRM fell dramatically overnight
Republicans will call for Ivanka Trump to be locked up. No?
And the DUP turn out to be exactly what people always thought they were
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by HindleA »

http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/un-rappo ... uk-poverty" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
RogerOThornhill
Prime Minister
Posts: 11115
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Pretty much sums it up...
Ian Dunt

Verified account

@IanDunt
17h17 hours ago
More
People who can't even organise a letter campaign insist complex international negotiation would've been fine if they were in charge
:D
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
frog222
Prime Minister
Posts: 5340
Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by frog222 »

gilsey wrote:Wren-Lewis on the UN report, highlighting something I hadn't seen reported before, although it's pretty much what we here think.https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the policies put in place since 2010 are usually discussed under the rubric of austerity. But this framing leads the inquiry in the wrong direction. In the area of poverty-related policy, the evidence points to the conclusion that the driving force has not been economic but rather a commitment to achieving radical social re-engineering.
I assume this is the 'political language' Rudd was complaining about.
We've actually had quite a lot of information on the ideological campaign to shrink the state etc, when it's increasingly general knowledge that various thinktanks and other lobbying orgs are funded by extremist billionaires, such the Kochs and Mercers. But I agree with you that the level of knowledge of many voters is close to abysmal .
Polly's of this morning is all about the revolutionary ideology of the Trusses and Raabs et al -
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... no-deal-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good stuff!
frog222
Prime Minister
Posts: 5340
Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by frog222 »

But of course discussing 'ideology' is not British :-)
AnatolyKasparov
Prime Minister
Posts: 15626
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

RogerOThornhill wrote: And the DUP turn out to be exactly what people always thought they were
One thing about the DUP is that they say what they mean and mean what they say.

Even before last night, it was obvious May would be unwise to think she could fob them off.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Good-afternoon, everyone
AnatolyKasparov
Prime Minister
Posts: 15626
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

JRM is apparently "urging patience" now.

Well as the saying goes, everything comes to those who wait - even if infirmity may preclude their enjoying it to the full :)
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Good morfternoon.

Nadine Dorries on BBC's Politics Live:

". . .not reaching the 48 letter threshold is a tactical decision".
User avatar
RogerOThornhill
Prime Minister
Posts: 11115
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by RogerOThornhill »

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Nadine Dorries on BBC's Politics Live:

". . .not reaching the 48 letter threshold is a tactical decision".
:D

Yes, of course it is dear...
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
AnatolyKasparov
Prime Minister
Posts: 15626
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

She is genuinely denser than plutonium :lol:
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Robert Halfon (BBC Politics Live, again) is now up to "4 priorities" (all of them different). General stuff - not "Brexit".
User avatar
Willow904
Prime Minister
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by Willow904 »

Rees-Mogg getting desperate:
Basically, if there is a vote of confidence it is not just for a year. Getting the 48 letters has shown to be quite difficult, so the idea that in a year you just repeat the process and then she would go at that point I don’t think that is realistic.

I think it is now or the prime minister will lead the Conservatives into the next election.
(From the G)
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Jacob Rees Mogg has a good track record on recognising "realistic", it should be pointed out.
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://righttoparticipate.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PaulfromYorkshire
Site Admin
Posts: 8329
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Great comment on Twitter with respect to "queue jumping".

Mrs May you cannot "unblow" a dog whistle.
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.parliament.uk/business/comm ... nce-17-19/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Cabinet Office not providing full information on voter ID inquiry
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PorFavor wrote:Jacob Rees Mogg has a good track record on recognising "realistic", it should be pointed out.
'let me be realistic'
HindleA
Prime Minister
Posts: 27400
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
Location: Three quarters way to hell

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... nazis-1939" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

"...just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions."
frog222
Prime Minister
Posts: 5340
Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by frog222 »

" After their escape, Attlee invited one of the children into their home in Stanmore, north London, testimony and letters show. He neither publicised nor sought to make political capital from his visitor."
His SpAds must have been asleep :-)
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

The House voting down May's withdrawal agreement makes Tory government's position untenable and a GE called
The DUP and Tory MPs likely agree that'd be the end of their leadership
They'll not let it happen
Is this about right or no?
PaulfromYorkshire
Site Admin
Posts: 8329
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

citizenJA wrote:The House voting down May's withdrawal agreement makes Tory government's position untenable and a GE called
The DUP and Tory MPs likely agree that'd be the end of their leadership
They'll not let it happen
Is this about right or no?
I don't think the DUP are in the same position as the Tories.

They can easily go back to their supporters with heads held high. TBF They've played a blinder. Got the extra dosh for NI and stood up for the Union too.
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Will the DUP do something that'd give Labour a chance for government soon?
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

What do Tory/DUP MPs fear more
Voting for May's withdrawal agreement or voting against it making current Tory leadership untenable?
Am I mistaken thinking voting down the agreement leads to current government's downfall?
PaulfromYorkshire
Site Admin
Posts: 8329
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

citizenJA wrote:What do Tory/DUP MPs fear more
Voting for May's withdrawal agreement or voting against it making current Tory leadership untenable?
Am I mistaken thinking voting down the agreement leads to current government's downfall?
IMHO MPs worry mainly about their own seats.

The DUP won't want to be seen supporting a process that leads even slightly towards Irish unification.

Then it comes down to individual Tories and what they think their own electors will think. If they feel voters in their area will hate them for voting with May, they may prefer to bring down the government.

But in any case the Tories can continue just about as a minority government even if May's bill is voted down.
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

Thank you, Paul
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

I think Tory MPs think of their party and will do nothing jeopardising their minority government
User avatar
adam
First Secretary of State
Posts: 3210
Joined: Wed 27 Aug, 2014 9:15 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by adam »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
citizenJA wrote:What do Tory/DUP MPs fear more
Voting for May's withdrawal agreement or voting against it making current Tory leadership untenable?
Am I mistaken thinking voting down the agreement leads to current government's downfall?
IMHO MPs worry mainly about their own seats.

The DUP won't want to be seen supporting a process that leads even slightly towards Irish unification.

Then it comes down to individual Tories and what they think their own electors will think. If they feel voters in their area will hate them for voting with May, they may prefer to bring down the government.

But in any case the Tories can continue just about as a minority government even if May's bill is voted down.
The DUP would have to start actively voting against them on motions of consequence in order to bring them down - ultimately would have to vote against a confidence motion (in the government, not a 1922 confidence motion on May) and risk a Corbyn and McDonnell government which it seems unlikely they would do - but you never know, and they are likely to decide what the see their principled line as being and then follow it.
I still believe in a town called Hope
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

I think every Tory MP in the House will protect this government; they don't want an early GE even if it means years of dysfunctional government bad for people and country. There's no constitutional mechanism preventing this from happening. Major's Tory government limped along for years. The only reason May called the early GE was because she thought Tories would gain by it. The only 'will of the people' is their few friends and family profiting from their leadership.
PaulfromYorkshire
Site Admin
Posts: 8329
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

adam wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
citizenJA wrote:What do Tory/DUP MPs fear more
Voting for May's withdrawal agreement or voting against it making current Tory leadership untenable?
Am I mistaken thinking voting down the agreement leads to current government's downfall?
IMHO MPs worry mainly about their own seats.

The DUP won't want to be seen supporting a process that leads even slightly towards Irish unification.

Then it comes down to individual Tories and what they think their own electors will think. If they feel voters in their area will hate them for voting with May, they may prefer to bring down the government.

But in any case the Tories can continue just about as a minority government even if May's bill is voted down.
The DUP would have to start actively voting against them on motions of consequence in order to bring them down - ultimately would have to vote against a confidence motion (in the government, not a 1922 confidence motion on May) and risk a Corbyn and McDonnell government which it seems unlikely they would do - but you never know, and they are likely to decide what the see their principled line as being and then follow it.
But, bizarrely, Corbyn is currently a much better guarantor of the Union than the Tories.

As it is now plain to see, the best Unionist future is a Brexit within a customs union.
PaulfromYorkshire
Site Admin
Posts: 8329
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

citizenJA wrote:I think Tory MPs think of their party and will do nothing jeopardising their minority government
I don't believe many Tories put their party's survival ahead of their own job!
PaulfromYorkshire
Site Admin
Posts: 8329
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Sad news
Harry Leslie Smith@Harryslaststand

This is Harry Leslie Smith's son, John. Harry is in A & E and not in a good way. He asked me to inform you in case things don't work out. I will keep you posted.
User avatar
Willow904
Prime Minister
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by Willow904 »

During the EU referendum campaign the DUP spent £30k with obscure Canadian company Aggregate IQ. Also coincidentally used by official campaign Vote Leave and Farage's crew Leave.EU bankrolled by Banks.

Whatever "it" is, I would suggest the DUP are in "it" up to their necks.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I think Tory MPs think of their party and will do nothing jeopardising their minority government
I don't believe many Tories put their party's survival ahead of their own job!
Nothing threatens their job except the next GE
User avatar
citizenJA
Prime Minister
Posts: 20648
Joined: Thu 11 Sep, 2014 12:22 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by citizenJA »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Sad news
Harry Leslie Smith@Harryslaststand

This is Harry Leslie Smith's son, John. Harry is in A & E and not in a good way. He asked me to inform you in case things don't work out. I will keep you posted.
sending you and your family my love, John
:heart:
cJA
frog222
Prime Minister
Posts: 5340
Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by frog222 »

Off to the ECJ !

Brexit: court rejects attempt to derail article 50 hearing
Government challenge against European court of justice referral dismissed by supreme court
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... article-50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
AnatolyKasparov
Prime Minister
Posts: 15626
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Sad news
Harry Leslie Smith@Harryslaststand

This is Harry Leslie Smith's son, John. Harry is in A & E and not in a good way. He asked me to inform you in case things don't work out. I will keep you posted.
Well if you believe the cynics, the Twitter account should have no problems in continuing even if the worst happens :roll:
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
frog222
Prime Minister
Posts: 5340
Joined: Sun 29 Nov, 2015 1:24 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by frog222 »

CRACE on the ERG

" Would you believe it? The European Research Group had significantly overestimated the number of people attending the launch of its new paper – why the UK should tell the EU to sod off: part 183 – and there were a few dozen empty seats by the time the event got under way at a converted church in Westminster. "

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -rees-mogg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PorFavor »

Patience is a virtue. Virtue is a grace. Constance is a cat.
PaulfromYorkshire
Site Admin
Posts: 8329
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

John McDonnell MP
‏@johnmcdonnellMP

Absolutely staggering. The Government has just accepted all Labour amendments to the Finance Bill because they couldn’t rely upon DUP to support them. Tories in office not in power. A government falling apart in front of us.
PorFavor
Prime Minister
Posts: 15167
Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:18 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PorFavor »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:John McDonnell MP
‏@johnmcdonnellMP

Absolutely staggering. The Government has just accepted all Labour amendments to the Finance Bill because they couldn’t rely upon DUP to support them. Tories in office not in power. A government falling apart in front of us.
Was there a "money back guarantee" with that there arrangement? I mean they've already spent a good chunk of it. What did the small-print say?
PaulfromYorkshire
Site Admin
Posts: 8329
Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm

Re: Tuesday 20th November 2018

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

PTO
Locked