Monday 26th November 2018

Post by **refitman** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:04 am

Morning all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:17 am

Good-morning, everyone

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:26 am

Constance has burnt the cornflakes..not for the first time.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:27 am

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rising homelessness isn’t inevitable, it’s a political choice

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:47 am

"Not having a home isn't just for Christmas"

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:48 am

This is a strange thing.

As mentioned on Saturday, the Huddersfield "grooming" scandal is back in the news. One of my local (Tory) councillors has questioned the integrity of the Chair of the Inquiry.

"This job needs to be done by someone who has no links to the partner organisations involved and it needs to be judge-led so that attendance is not voluntary."

Anyway when I clicked through I got one of those surveys to do before you can read. And it was obviously funded by the Tories or someone close. Did I think there should be a peoples vote? Did I agree the last thing we needed was a Tory leadership contest? Did I think Labour's Brexit policy was clear? etc.

Which was quite amusing since I'd principally clicked on the link because the headline was "Tories accused of shameful behaviour"

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/wes ... w-15458561" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:57 am

Cyber Monday 2018: guide to the best UK deals and offers
Ancestry is offering £30 off DNA kits.

I'd burst into mortified tears getting a DNA kit for Christmas

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 8:00 am

HindleA wrote:Constance has burnt the cornflakes..not for the first time.

I've hidden the croissants but forgotten where

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 8:03 am

Tomorrow is Buy f.a.if you can help it Day .

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 8:06 am

I was in one hell of tough spot some years ago; I didn't have a safe place to live. I endured an abusive relationship for some time until I was able to get out. I'll never forget it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 8:11 am

When I say tomorrow,I mean everyday."Is your purchase really necessary?"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 8:19 am

I childishly enjoy the fact that the Government has propaganised me as being unfair having this one.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 8:27 am

HindleA wrote:When I say tomorrow,I mean everyday."Is your purchase really necessary?"

Mr citizen makes thrift and sustainable living a good time.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 8:39 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:---
Did I think there should be a peoples vote? Did I agree the last thing we needed was a Tory leadership contest? Did I think Labour's Brexit policy was clear? etc.
---

(cJA edit)
Those were the question, seriously? I don't doubt it. I don't trust or respect Tory government. When May lost her majority and mandate, she should've understood her government's limitations. That was the time to pull back, seek cooperation with the rest of the House and not plunge the country and people into this.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 8:58 am

Morning all.

Well this is great news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46341310" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jeremy Hunt needs to be congratulated if he managed to get this arranged.

It seems that he is already considerably better than the last occupant of the job although that wouldn't be difficult.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 9:48 am

HindleA wrote:https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ssion=true
Rising homelessness isn’t inevitable, it’s a political choice

" Ministers would argue that the money to comprehensively tackle homelessness isn’t there in the Treasury coffers. This is rank dishonesty: Tory chancellors will have delivered £22bn of income tax cuts – the benefits of which flow to the most affluent half of families – by 2020. Allowing homelessness to rise isn’t some inevitable consequence of fiscal responsibility. It’s a political choice."

£22bn. A figure to remember.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 9:55 am

citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:Constance has burnt the cornflakes..not for the first time.
I've hidden the croissants but forgotten where

I light my woodstove with a roaring fire, enough to perc the coffee pot , and my croissants were a little burnt too

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 10:32 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Well this is great news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46341310" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jeremy Hunt needs to be congratulated if he managed to get this arranged.

It seems that he is already considerably better than the last occupant of the job although that wouldn't be difficult.

They are still saying he is guilty, of course

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 11:34 am

citizenJA wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:---
Did I think there should be a peoples vote? Did I agree the last thing we needed was a Tory leadership contest? Did I think Labour's Brexit policy was clear? etc.
---
(cJA edit)
Those were the question, seriously? I don't doubt it. I don't trust or respect Tory government. When May lost her majority and mandate, she should've understood her government's limitations. That was the time to pull back, seek cooperation with the rest of the House and not plunge the country and people into this.

Those weren't the exact words. I wish I'd noted them down before pressing submit.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 11:45 am

@RoT

I did actually think when Hunt was appointed that his smooth talking, behind the scenes manner was certainly more suited to diplomacy than to NHS strategy and of course a big improvement on Johnson's approach.

I still wish he would go away though. I can't believe he did this on principle. Just realpolitik.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 12:06 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@RoT

I did actually think when Hunt was appointed that his smooth talking, behind the scenes manner was certainly more suited to diplomacy than to NHS strategy and of course a big improvement on Johnson's approach.

I still wish he would go away though. I can't believe he did this on principle. Just realpolitik.

Well of course it'll be "We'll have our Foreign Secretary talk to your people. I'm sure we can come to an arrangement" - it's what the FCO does after all...

I can kinda see May's logic in putting Boris in one of the key Bexit roles to own what he'd helped bring about but I think everyone at the time was saying "WTAF?" - almost the perfect example of the wrong person for that job.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 12:14 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@RoT
I did actually think when Hunt was appointed that his smooth talking, behind the scenes manner was certainly more suited to diplomacy than to NHS strategy and of course a big improvement on Johnson's approach.
I still wish he would go away though. I can't believe he did this on principle. Just realpolitik.

Surely you can't totally exclude a remnant of humanity in all politicians ?

That applies less to lawyers and the Law ! This Bargaining Chip had some hopes on the judgement :

" A court challenge over the legality of the EU’s Brexit negotiations brought by a 97-year-old war veteran and 12 other emigrant Britons has been rejected by the European court of justice in Luxembourg.

Harry Shindler, who lives in Italy, and others who reside in various EU member states had argued that the referendum in 2016 was invalid because they and more than a million Britons living in the EU were deprived of a vote. "

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/no ... y-shindler" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So a case can be made only after harm has occurred ?

Interestingly the Commission sided with Harry&Co , but the Council was against !

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

" What many dont know is the EU Commission made a Recommendation to the UK and 4 other member states after Harry lost at ECHR. That restricting voting rights was unjustly punishing those who exercise free movement rights to live and work elsewhere in EU "

There are a few more brexit legal cases on the go .

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 12:19 pm

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 49001.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edit: The High Court will rule as early as Christmas whether Brexit should be declared “void”, in a legal case given a turbo-boost by the criminal investigation into Leave funder Arron Banks.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 12:57 pm

" Brexit is not, thankfully, a question of war. But, like Iraq, Brexit is an act of unprovoked self-harm and a massive strategic mistake that threatens Britain’s credibility and authority in the world. Like Iraq, Brexit is being taken forward on an establishment consensus, led by the government, that it is now inevitable and unavoidable, and that mis-steps taken so far, however regrettable, are irreversible.

Also like Iraq, Brexit has brought out the very worst in our press – the language of “traitors” is back on the front pages "

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ir ... 50811.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Political courage is a rare commodity .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 1:22 pm

Good morfternoon.

I'm still seething over Theresa May's post-signing press conference. She couldn't bring herself to say that she felt sorry that "Brexit" had happened even in the context of the divisions and unhappiness it has caused in the UK. She could have used that opportunity to at least try to extend an olive branch to "Remainers".

Graceless bitch. (Sorry - but that's how I'm feeling.)

Edited for clarity\accuracy.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 1:32 pm

Earlier, I watched the BBC's Politics Live.

On the programme, Bernard Jenkin stated that Jeremy Corbyn was a "Remainer" who had capaigned for "Remain".He (BJ) was arguing against a "head-to-head" between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on the basis that it would be a debate between two "Remainers". I took that to be a bid to dismantle Jeremy Corbyn's fence. I wonder what (JC's) response (if any) that will elicit.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 1:52 pm

PorFavor wrote:Earlier, I watched the BBC's Politics Live.

On the programme, Bernard Jenkin stated that Jeremy Corbyn was a "Remainer" who had capaigned for "Remain".He (BJ) was arguing against a "head-to-head" between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on the basis that it would be a debate between two "Remainers". I took that to be a bid to dismantle Jeremy Corbyn's fence. I wonder what (JC's) response (if any) that will elicit.

I think Corbyn can say with real sincerity that it doesn't matter whether he is a Leaver or Remainer. He can say that while the country is divided into Leave and Remain there is little hope for a solution with popular support. His job as PM would be to seek the unity through compromise that May says she wants but has pointedly failed to deliver.

Post by **adam** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 1:57 pm

Andrew Gwynne, Labour MP, on Twitter about May's meeting to talk to Labour MPs about her plans.

Do we get Knighthoods for attending? Asking for a friend.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 2:48 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Earlier, I watched the BBC's Politics Live.

On the programme, Bernard Jenkin stated that Jeremy Corbyn was a "Remainer" who had capaigned for "Remain".He (BJ) was arguing against a "head-to-head" between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on the basis that it would be a debate between two "Remainers". I took that to be a bid to dismantle Jeremy Corbyn's fence. I wonder what (JC's) response (if any) that will elicit.
I think Corbyn can say with real sincerity that it doesn't matter whether he is a Leaver or Remainer. He can say that while the country is divided into Leave and Remain there is little hope for a solution with popular support. His job as PM would be to seek the unity through compromise that May says she wants but has pointedly failed to deliver.

" to seek the unity through compromise " OR perhaps change the game completely ...

I'm just going out, but would be interested to see ideas when I come back !

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 3:10 pm

PorFavor wrote:Earlier, I watched the BBC's Politics Live.

On the programme, Bernard Jenkin stated that Jeremy Corbyn was a "Remainer" who had capaigned for "Remain".He (BJ) was arguing against a "head-to-head" between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on the basis that it would be a debate between two "Remainers". I took that to be a bid to dismantle Jeremy Corbyn's fence. I wonder what (JC's) response (if any) that will elicit.

Makes a change from the opposite claim I suppose.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 3:46 pm

frog222 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Earlier, I watched the BBC's Politics Live.

On the programme, Bernard Jenkin stated that Jeremy Corbyn was a "Remainer" who had capaigned for "Remain".He (BJ) was arguing against a "head-to-head" between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on the basis that it would be a debate between two "Remainers". I took that to be a bid to dismantle Jeremy Corbyn's fence. I wonder what (JC's) response (if any) that will elicit.
I think Corbyn can say with real sincerity that it doesn't matter whether he is a Leaver or Remainer. He can say that while the country is divided into Leave and Remain there is little hope for a solution with popular support. His job as PM would be to seek the unity through compromise that May says she wants but has pointedly failed to deliver.
" to seek the unity through compromise " OR perhaps change the game completely ...

I'm just going out, but would be interested to see ideas when I come back !

As I've said probably more frequently than is welcome, the way out of this impasse has to be to look forward.

Leavers will have to accept that we aren't going back to 1970, Remainers that there is no return to 2010.

What future relationship can we imagine with the EU that may turn out to be a productive way forward for both sides? I don't have the answer to that, but I think a less financially and more socially driven EU is what is needed.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 4:21 pm

Strong stuff from Corbyn IMHO

https://labourlist.org/2018/11/ploughin ... statement/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ploughing-on-is-not-stoic-it-is-an-act-of-national-self-harm-corbyns-response-to-latest-brexit-statement

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 4:36 pm

Confused inboard flack for the Scottish MP who told Theresa May to "sit down" (3,9).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 4:37 pm

Gareth Snell has said he is voting against May's deal - if she can't get him to support it, then the likelihood is hardly any Labour MPs will.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 5:45 pm

https://theconversation.com/amp/will-th ... wer-107532" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Will Theresa May’s Brexit deal survive? Game theory has an answer"

The European Union may have approved Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement, but getting her own MPs to do so seems impossible. And her approach is confusing. On the one hand, she has been telling pro-Remain MPs that they need to vote for her deal or they’ll be left with
no deal at all. On the other, she’s been warning eurosceptics that they could face another referendum or election unless they back her deal. As has been pointed out, both of these threats cannot be true simultaneously; either the prime minister has gone crazy or there is a reason.

There being a reason doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that she has also gone crazy.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 5:49 pm

tinybgoat wrote:https://theconversation.com/amp/will-th ... wer-107532
"Will Theresa May’s Brexit deal survive? Game theory has an answer"
The European Union may have approved Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement, but getting her own MPs to do so seems impossible. And her approach is confusing. On the one hand, she has been telling pro-Remain MPs that they need to vote for her deal or they’ll be left with
no deal at all. On the other, she’s been warning eurosceptics that they could face another referendum or election unless they back her deal. As has been pointed out, both of these threats cannot be true simultaneously; either the prime minister has gone crazy or there is a reason.
There being a reason doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that she has also gone crazy.

Or she's assuming that people don't actually talk to each other...

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 5:53 pm

If arch-loyalist Michael Fallon is getting edgy about this, then she really is sunk.

thaumaturge · Post by **thaumaturge** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 6:19 pm

Just posted this elsewhere, but may be of interest here also:

Is May now fed up with the DUP and/or resigned to the fact that they are not going to vote for her deal? From the G's Politics Live blog:

Ross Thomson, a Scottish Conservative, says he campaigned heart and soul to keep the UK together in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum. But this deal would leave Northern Ireland under EU control in some respects. As a passionate unionist, he cannot accept that.

May says she is also a passionate unionist. She says Northern Ireland already has different rules from GB in some respects. And she says in some respects the backstop could benefit Northern Ireland.

She’s right about that, but those are not the words of someone who is trying to keep the DUP on-side.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 6:39 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
frog222 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:PorFavor"]Earlier, I watched the BBC's Politics Live.

On the programme, Bernard Jenkin stated that Jeremy Corbyn was a "Remainer" who had capaigned for "Remain".He (BJ) was arguing against a "head-to-head" between Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn on the basis that it would be a debate between two "Remainers". I took that to be a bid to dismantle Jeremy Corbyn's fence. I wonder what (JC's) response (if any) that will elicit.
I think Corbyn can say with real sincerity that it doesn't matter whether he is a Leaver or Remainer. He can say that while the country is divided into Leave and Remain there is little hope for a solution with popular support. His job as PM would be to seek the unity through compromise that May says she wants but has pointedly failed to deliver.
" to seek the unity through compromise " OR perhaps change the game completely ...

I'm just going out, but would be interested to see ideas when I come back !
As I've said probably more frequently than is welcome, the way out of this impasse has to be to look forward.

Leavers will have to accept that we aren't going back to 1970, Remainers that there is no return to 2010.

What future relationship can we imagine with the EU that may turn out to be a productive way forward for both sides? I don't have the answer to that, but I think a less financially and more socially driven EU is what is needed.

I agree with all of that . But it's not a game-changer which brings everyone up short is it ?

CLUE : Mine is a dangerous idea, and I may be wrong , but don't most normal people appreciate someone honestly admitting a mistake ... ?

( Think warfare, when parachuting added another dimension to it all... or Charles Kennedy going against most of Westminster over Iraq )

Is anyone finding those crossword clues ?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 6:49 pm

May's aides now appearing to play down any prospect of a TV debate with Corbyn.

Quelle surprise!

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 6:50 pm

PS 6.39 -- It's a speech that basically can only been made once, by the right person in the right place .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:01 pm

frog222 wrote:PS 6.39 -- It's a speech that basically can only been made once, by the right person in the right place .

I give up.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:03 pm

PorFavor wrote:
frog222 wrote:PS 6.39 -- It's a speech that basically can only been made once, by the right person in the right place .
I give up.

That was a big fat CLUE .....

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:04 pm

It could well take the HoC by storm ...

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:07 pm

Would not necessarily need a magnificent WSC- level orator, but at least someone who could be heard by the chamber ,and journos ...

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:12 pm

After all Geoffrey Howe did that ?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:32 pm

Meaningful vote confirmed by govt sources for Tuesday 11th Dec

5 days of debate apparently

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:33 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Gareth Snell has said he is voting against May's deal - if she can't get him to support it, then the likelihood is hardly any Labour MPs will.

I like Gareth Snell. He's got one hell of a tough job. Conflicts must be safely contained. A rough confrontation results in people leaving the table and not coming back.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:39 pm

He's our MP, Gareth Snell. I'm speaking in a general way about his work in this constituency. I've not looked at the news this afternoon.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 26 Nov, 2018 7:44 pm

tinybgoat wrote:https://theconversation.com/amp/will-th ... wer-107532
"Will Theresa May’s Brexit deal survive? Game theory has an answer"
The European Union may have approved Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement, but getting her own MPs to do so seems impossible. And her approach is confusing. On the one hand, she has been telling pro-Remain MPs that they need to vote for her deal or they’ll be left with
no deal at all. On the other, she’s been warning eurosceptics that they could face another referendum or election unless they back her deal. As has been pointed out, both of these threats cannot be true simultaneously; either the prime minister has gone crazy or there is a reason.
There being a reason doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that she has also gone crazy.

That's remarkable, the blatant contradiction of her reasoning, her cajoling.

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