Tuesday 27th November 2018

Post by **refitman** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 7:09 am

Morning all.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 7:42 am

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-plan-b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Ministers consider backing ‘Norway plus’ as Brexit plan B"
This would still lead to division between those wanting to stay in it for a short period and then push for a trade deal, those wanting to move back to EU membership etc.
(and ignores Efta members being against temporary membership).

Have tried to decipher @Frog222 clues, went through various possible resignations (Queen, Mark Carney, Hammond) and decided on Gove sticking the boot in?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:17 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-p ... -the-union" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PM promises deal to strengthen the Union

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:19 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/up-t ... ge-in-2018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:23 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/grad ... emain-high" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Biggest ever study reveals graduate earnings up to the age of 29 compared to those who opted for a different route of study

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:31 am

Constance down the caff for breakfast (the one remaining she isn't banned from...yet)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:40 am

tinybgoat wrote:https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-plan-b
"Ministers consider backing ‘Norway plus’ as Brexit plan B"
This would still lead to division between those wanting to stay in it for a short period and then push for a trade deal, those wanting to move back to EU membership etc.
(and ignores Efta members being against temporary membership).

Have tried to decipher @Frog222 clues, went through various possible resignations (Queen, Mark Carney, Hammond) and decided on Gove sticking the boot in?

Yes I ended up with the Queen resigning too

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:41 am

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:45 am

https://www.the-pool.com/arts-culture/t ... led-dancer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:45 am

TBG -- I'll be back to you !

Overcast, soggy, miserable day here , are we down-hearted ?

Croissants NOT burnt this morning tho stove still hot enough to make coffee .

Cat in and out of his flap, snoring on tiled floor at 40°C ...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:48 am

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:53 am

PFY 8.40 -- more good creative stuff going on there

We're in a weird situation where (nearly) everyone knows we are in a bind, on a hiding to nothing, but it appears to be a "TINA" one !

Reminds me of Yanis Varoufakis describing how the EU /IMF knew damn well they were sabotaging Greece , and wouldnt/couldn't get the 'debts' paid back, but still went on with it ....

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 9:13 am

tinybgoat wrote:https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-plan-b
"Ministers consider backing ‘Norway plus’ as Brexit plan B"
This would still lead to division between those wanting to stay in it for a short period and then push for a trade deal, those wanting to move back to EU membership etc.
(and ignores Efta members being against temporary membership).
Have tried to decipher @Frog222 clues, went through various possible resignations (Queen, Mark Carney, Hammond) and decided on Gove sticking the boot in?

Good work TBG, gnawing away there !
This is just a first stab at defining where it went wrong.

The answer is that somehow parliament and the nation have to come to terms with the fact that the former fucked up in 2015, by overwhelmingly voting for the referendum at all.

Mea culpa, sackcloth and ashes, confessing, accepting responsibility, reparations ?

It's FAR FAR beyond a party matter . The institution failed , through lazy thinking, or actually ... not thinking at all. A lack of imagination all round.

They are all in it together (to coin a phrase) and misled themselves, and the whole UK .

EX : Imagine taking the MP's one by one, and asking them if they knew in 2015 that a Leave vote automatically meant the EMA leaving London ? YES/NO.

One scenario could be a significant MP confessing their own mistake and proving to the rest of them where collectively they had gone wrong in bypassing the representative nature of the UK system . In their heart of hearts, somewhere(!), most of them must know that, surely ?

Geoffrey Howe's speech to Thatcher, Charles Kennedy on Iraq, very much alone, https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ir ... 50811.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Robin Cook's resignation speech, and more from the May 1940 speeches on the Narvik débacle back through history , there have been occasions where MP's made a difference.

And truth was told .

Parliament failed the people by promising something that just could not exist, a possibility of solving today's undoubted problems by a return to a largely mythical past of glorious independence.

----------------------------------------------

PS I thought the Queen intervening in some way was rather good too ;

Remember her asking the economists in 2008 " WHY didn't YOU see it coming ?"

( Meaning "What bloody use are you !)

Just imagine a speech to the Nation :

" I'm sorry People, but our/your parliament has ~~been Very Silly~~ made a mistake ... " cont p92

Post by **adam** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 9:21 am

Priorities, priorities...

Downing Street’s desire for a peak slot may come against the brutal reality of TV schedules. The prime minister’s team want the largest possible audience for such a debate, but the only logistically possible Sunday night that could work is 9 December, which could bring its own problems if they wish to appear on one of the biggest terrestrial channels. That evening, BBC One is set to show Countryfile, the season finales of Doctor Who and David Attenborough’s Dynasties, plus Strictly Come Dancing and a new drama by Jimmy McGovern. Meanwhile, ITV will be showing the final of I’m a Celebrity … Get Me Out of Here. It is unlikely that a sceptical audience settling down for Sunday night viewing would welcome any of the shows being interrupted or delayed, even for a political debate that could shape the future of Britain.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 9:22 am

Twitter really is an odd thing...first they halved the number of people I was following, then gave them back to me.

Now they've taken them all away. So, my ROT account has been abandoned for a while.

Good job I set another one up - but no politics, no education - just my OU and local history stuff.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 9:29 am

My mate.Money was £2.50.

https://www.derbyshiretimes.co.uk/news/ ... -1-9453167" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 9:32 am

(Walking home from work)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 9:48 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... n-inedible" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fruit and veg used in scheme for English schools 'often inedible'

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 10:03 am

frog222 wrote: ...
The answer is that somehow parliament and the nation have to come to terms with the fact that the former fucked up in 2015, by overwhelmingly voting for the referendum at all.
Mea culpa, sackcloth and ashes, confessing, accepting responsibility, reparations ?
It's FAR FAR beyond a party matter . The institution failed , through lazy thinking, or actually ... not thinking at all. A lack of imagination all round.

Might work, but based on selected conversations (well one actually, but probably no less representative than one of Theresa May's Knockees.) it would probably have to be Boris Johnson doing the Mea Culpa thing, so this might be a problem.

I like reparations idea, Brexit voters would need something to placate them, don't know what though.

I can't see the Queen intervening going down well, though might liven things up a bit ..

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 11:01 am

HindleA wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-p ... -the-union

PM promises deal to strengthen the Union

That's OK then, nothing to worry about there.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 11:03 am

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... e-reversed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"European court to rule on whether article 50 can be reversed
Judges to decide if UK can stop Brexit without consent of 27 other EU member states"
One of Joly Maugham's, not clear when verdict will be known.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 11:09 am

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Brexit: Government admits UK could attempt to unilaterally revoke Article 50 if MPs want to"

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 11:11 am

tinybgoat wrote:
frog222 wrote: ...
The answer is that somehow parliament and the nation have to come to terms with the fact that the former fucked up in 2015, by overwhelmingly voting for the referendum at all.
Mea culpa, sackcloth and ashes, confessing, accepting responsibility, reparations ?
It's FAR FAR beyond a party matter . The institution failed , through lazy thinking, or actually ... not thinking at all. A lack of imagination all round.
Might work, but based on selected conversations (well one actually, but probably no less representative than one of Theresa May's Knockees.) it would probably have to be Boris Johnson doing the Mea Culpa thing, so this might be a problem.
I like reparations idea, Brexit voters would need something to placate them, don't know what though.
I can't see the Queen intervening going down well, though might liven things up a bit ..

It's all crazy stuff TBG, but we are in crazy times

I'd actually already thought of the abominable Boris doing an about-turn, recently when he was quiet for a few days, but then the bugger wrote again in the DT !

If only he'd done it, he'd go down in History ... in a good way for a change .

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 11:31 am

tinybgoat wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp
"Brexit: Government admits UK could attempt to unilaterally revoke Article 50 if MPs want to"

Well, that is potentially significant surely?

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 12:40 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp
"Brexit: Government admits UK could attempt to unilaterally revoke Article 50 if MPs want to"
Well, that is potentially significant surely?

Confess I got lost in the legalese, but is the vital thing "attempt" ?
Liked this at the LT --

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a wing and much prayer .

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 12:49 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp
"Brexit: Government admits UK could attempt to unilaterally revoke Article 50 if MPs want to"
Well, that is potentially significant surely?

I think so, there's an article on conservativehome
"Fact-checking the dubious Withdrawal Agreement's arguments being put to MPs"
https://www.conservativehome.com/platfo ... o-mps.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
which discounts the possibility of revoking article 50.

It makes the “If you vote down the deal we will stay in the EU because there is no majority for No Deal.” claim a bit more valid, in that it would be possible for parliament to try and revoke article 50.
and weakens the “If you vote down the deal we will end up with No Deal.” argument
So it could influence how mps vote, although might help to know the result of the court case first.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 12:49 pm

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Robert Mueller’s announcement that he would be offering Cyber Monday plea deals touched off hysteria among disgraced Trump associates desperate for the chance to score a drastically reduced sentence.

Moments after the office of the special counsel went live with its Cyber Monday Web site, Sing4Bob.com, thousands of Trump cronies flooded it with traffic, causing the site to briefly crash.

Harland Dorrinson, the member of Mueller’s team who masterminded the Cyber Monday sale, said that the special counsel was offering a limited number of “prison doorbusters,” with sentences up to seventy-five per cent off.

“I’m not surprised that people are going crazy for these bargains,” Dorrinson said. “Otherwise, you could go to trial and face one of those Obama judges.”

He said that Mueller’s Cyber Monday sale was benefitting from a piece of fortuitous timing, since it was being held on the same day that the former Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos was scheduled to report to prison for a two-week sentence.

“Everyone who goes on the site is looking for a Papadopoulos special,” he said. “Those were all gone in the first five minutes.”

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 1:24 pm

This is marvellous...

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 1:52 pm

Daily Mash is on good form today

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 2:04 pm

adam wrote:Priorities, priorities...

Downing Street’s desire for a peak slot may come against the brutal reality of TV schedules. The prime minister’s team want the largest possible audience for such a debate, but the only logistically possible Sunday night that could work is 9 December, which could bring its own problems if they wish to appear on one of the biggest terrestrial channels. That evening, BBC One is set to show Countryfile, the season finales of Doctor Who and David Attenborough’s Dynasties, plus Strictly Come Dancing and a new drama by Jimmy McGovern. Meanwhile, ITV will be showing the final of I’m a Celebrity … Get Me Out of Here. It is unlikely that a sceptical audience settling down for Sunday night viewing would welcome any of the shows being interrupted or delayed, even for a political debate that could shape the future of Britain.

I think you get to vote on the dancing programme? Not sure about the "I'll Do Anything if the Money's Right and it Panders to My Exhibitionist Streak" one.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 2:40 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:This is marvellous...
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I knew of the use of the Azores as a staging post, but not how it came about ; a fascinating bit of history. So BoJo didn't even use Wiki !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_ ... rld_War_II" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 3:10 pm

Apologies -

Good morfternoon.

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 3:14 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Daily Mash is on good form today

I enjoyed this one from a friend of yours --

" Corbyn’s ideal outcome would probably be to get Brexit with none of the blame for Brexit. So the Labour leadership has circled over May’s government like vultures, watching a wounded creature crawl across an arid plain. There are worse strategies. Scavenging is an effective evolutionary model, albeit not an inspiring one. "

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -hurricane" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I haven't the foggiest prediction for the ENGLISH political parties in the current shitstorm ... while noting that the previous government here was Socialist , and then plummeted --

" Hamon finished 5th in the subsequent Presidential election, with 6.36% of the vote. In the 2017 legislative election that followed the election of President Emmanuel Macron, the Socialist party dropped from 280 to 30 seats in the National Assembly, leaving it in 4th place in terms of seats, and with 7.44% of the 1st round vote. "

Differences in culture, FPTP etc , and lots of plotting going on too !

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 3:36 pm

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wome ... -27fp2ngq6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Women take government to court over universal credit

" about £500 worse off a year under the work allowance system,"

"making work pay",was always nonsense of course as was the "replicate the World of work"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 3:41 pm

I know let's design a system according to the minority of situations in our imaginary World.Nothing could possibly go wrong.

thaumaturge · Post by **thaumaturge** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 4:55 pm

frog222 wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-plan-b
"Ministers consider backing ‘Norway plus’ as Brexit plan B"
This would still lead to division between those wanting to stay in it for a short period and then push for a trade deal, those wanting to move back to EU membership etc.
(and ignores Efta members being against temporary membership).
Have tried to decipher @Frog222 clues, went through various possible resignations (Queen, Mark Carney, Hammond) and decided on Gove sticking the boot in?
Good work TBG, gnawing away there !
This is just a first stab at defining where it went wrong.

The answer is that somehow parliament and the nation have to come to terms with the fact that the former fucked up in 2015, by overwhelmingly voting for the referendum at all.

Mea culpa, sackcloth and ashes, confessing, accepting responsibility, reparations ?

It's FAR FAR beyond a party matter . The institution failed , through lazy thinking, or actually ... not thinking at all. A lack of imagination all round.

They are all in it together (to coin a phrase) and misled themselves, and the whole UK .

EX : Imagine taking the MP's one by one, and asking them if they knew in 2015 that a Leave vote automatically meant the EMA leaving London ? YES/NO.

One scenario could be a significant MP confessing their own mistake and proving to the rest of them where collectively they had gone wrong in bypassing the representative nature of the UK system . In their heart of hearts, somewhere(!), most of them must know that, surely ?

Geoffrey Howe's speech to Thatcher, Charles Kennedy on Iraq, very much alone, https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ir ... 50811.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Robin Cook's resignation speech, and more from the May 1940 speeches on the Narvik débacle back through history , there have been occasions where MP's made a difference.

And truth was told .

Parliament failed the people by promising something that just could not exist, a possibility of solving today's undoubted problems by a return to a largely mythical past of glorious independence.

----------------------------------------------

PS I thought the Queen intervening in some way was rather good too ;

Remember her asking the economists in 2008 " WHY didn't YOU see it coming ?"

( Meaning "What bloody use are you !)

Just imagine a speech to the Nation :

" I'm sorry People, but our/your parliament has ~~been Very Silly~~ made a mistake ... " cont p92

One's Parliament, shurely?

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 5:27 pm

Thauma 4.55 --

I thought of that but these are desperate times and One must appeal to One's People

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 5:52 pm

Evening, everyone

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 5:59 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-p ... -the-union

PM promises deal to strengthen the Union

oh no god help us all, cJA wept

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 6:14 pm

A good Twitter moment for me - you need to read to the bottom

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 6:18 pm

Tim Walker was a Tory cheerleader throughout the 2010-15 parliament, strange how totally that has been "memory holed".

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 6:22 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:A good Twitter moment for me - you need to read to the bottom

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good work, PfY

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 6:42 pm

Tory government is no friend to most people and the nation they're supposed to represent.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 8:51 pm

I'm going to read some LeGuin
Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 9:17 pm

citizenJA wrote:I'm going to read some LeGuin
Goodnight, everyone love,cJA

That's better than Brexitology , there's weeks and months more of that, perhaps years, unless we're very lucky .

Post by **adam** » Tue 27 Nov, 2018 11:16 pm

Universal Credit 'not as bad as some people say' announces survivor.

Everyone should watch The Mash Report on iPlayer if you don't already see it.