Tuesday 4th December 2018

Post by **refitman** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 7:08 am

Morning all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 8:33 am

Good-morning, everyone

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 8:46 am

Morning all.

Well, this could get interesting later on...

Brexit legal advice: MPs to vote on contempt of Parliament motion

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46435128" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So (i) government to lose vote on what should be disclosed and (ii) possibility that a cabinet minister could be suspended.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 8:53 am

in response to frog222's post on yesterday's politics thread regarding low-wage earners not the same as low-skilled workers

This is a topic near and dear to me & I appreciate your bringing it up.
'Low-skilled' is what some call others' work attempting justification for paying people pitiful wages for their skill, experience, time and labour. Some have little idea the value of work done all the time. They wouldn't last two days if so-called, 'low skilled' workers didn't do their work. I get angry about the lack of appreciation and proper compensation for people.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 8:55 am

I've been suffering from insomnia. It's an anxious time. I'm going to try to get some sleep. Apologies for the off-topic message
love,
cJA

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 8:57 am

Minister not taking responsibility is contorted grisly chagrin (5,8).

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 9:03 am

Good morfternoon.

UK can stop article 50 without EU approval, top ECJ adviser says

European court of justice likely to endorse opinion in case taken by anti-Brexit campaigners
(Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... viser-says

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 10:06 am

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/education- ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Missing special needs support 'a national scandal'

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 10:48 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... arity-says" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 10:49 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -challenge" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Voter ID trials in England face legal challenge

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 11:21 am

citizenJA wrote:I've been suffering from insomnia. It's an anxious time. I'm going to try to get some sleep. Apologies for the off-topic message
love,
cJA

I said to you a while back, look after yourself first and foremost

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 12:36 pm

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/re ... port-59354" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 12:39 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -challenge

Voter ID trials in England face legal challenge

Would be nice to think something will actually come of this.

Make no mistake, many Tories look on the voter suppression efforts of the GOP across the pond with envy.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 12:40 pm

Soaring private sector rents and a decline in access to housing benefits are causing “unacceptable rises” in child poverty, a report released today has said.

L
According to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s (JRF) annual report, the proportion of children in the poorest fifth of the population living in the private rented sector has risen from 17% in 2005/06 to 37% in 2016/17.

At the same time the number of children living in poverty in the UK has risen by 500,000 over the past five years, putting the total at 4.1 million.

JRF says the increase in child poverty has mostly occurred across low-income working families, who are disproportionately affected by recent changes in the UK housing market.

Since 2009/10, housing costs have risen for those living in the poorest two-fifths of society, while families in the richest three-fifths have experienced a fall in housing costs.

According to the report this is due to reduced access to social housing and falls in homeownership.

Rising housing costs have not been matched by housing benefit, due to policies such as the ongoing freeze of the Local Housing Allowance and overall benefit cap.

This means the proportion of households who claim full housing benefit but have to use other income to help pay their rent has more than doubled."

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 12:52 pm

I have no doubts but I hope such obvious attempts backfire and more people vote in mind of who tried to stop them.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 1:50 pm

Andromeda seal is confused responding to Keir Starmer (6,7).

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 3:40 pm

Should I stop the anagrams?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 3:43 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Should I stop the anagrams?

No!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 3:52 pm

Seven local council byelections last week:

Welwyn Hatfield DC - Tory hold with a share approaching 60% (an increase of 7 points since May) in a ward which returned three councillors for them in the 2016 all-out elections following boundary changes, however things aren't quite as straightforward as that seems given that an Independent was only just beaten then and remained competitive earlier this year. Their absence now made it easier for the Tories, though it seems the LibDems picked up much of their previous vote - they sat the last election out but advanced 25 points on their previous showing in 2016. Labour more than halved to 4% in last place.

Oxfordshire CC - LibDem hold with over 60% and a 15 point advance since last year. That was when the Tories made this traditionally safe LibDem division (which remained reasonably so in 2013 after minor boundary changes) a close contest, but a 13% swing now saw the LibDems outpoll the Tories by nearly 2 to 1. Tories had a double figure drop, whilst Labour also fell 4 points to 8% (though they were little changed on 2013 when UKIP had a decent third place here)

Bromley - Tory hold with 45%, little changed since earlier this year. This ward has reliably returned three Tories ever since 2002 (though the LibDems were reasonably close in that initial election) but this year saw a significant advance for second placed Labour (who had moved into that position come the 2014 elections) and they went up a couple of points again this time for a further small swing overall. LibDems up four points to some 18% - though still some way short of their former strength - whilst in a sign of the times perhaps, UKIP had a modest increase to 6%. Whilst still well down on their 2014 showing, it was enough to overtake the Greens - the main losers here as they polled 2%, four-fifths down on this May.

Oldham - Labour hold with approaching 60% of the vote, up five points since May and beating the (almost unchanged) Tory runner-up by over 2 to 1. Whilst a safe Labour ward in recent years (this result is actually slightly closer than a previous byelection last year and a few other recent results) it did elect a Tory at their 2008 high point (by just eight votes, the only time since the 2004 all-outs that Labour has not won) and UKIP were quite close at their peak in 2014. As it was an ex-UKIP (and before that, Green) Independent who took third spot with 8%, ahead of "official" UKIP with just 3% - though they still got double the votes of the last placed LibDem - actually a slight improvement for them since May which says it all

Warwickshire CC - LibDem gain from the localist Stratford First group, thus returning to the pre-2013 situation - in that election SF caused something of a shock as they took the long-standing LibDem predecessor division. The boundaries were tweaked last year, and things seemingly got worse for the LibDems as they slipped into third behind the Tories - but an increase of over 16 points to 40% gave them a comfortable win over the Tories who were hardly changed, whilst Stratford First saw their vote more than halved to 16%. Labour edged down to 8%, Greens creeping up to nearly 7% - a decent showing for them in these byelections where they often struggle.

Buckinghamshire CC - LibDem hold of a division which they took from UKIP last year, advancing from almost exactly 30% then to nearing 40% now. Despite coming 4th in that election, UKIP's score still held up better than in most places (even many other seats they previously held) and so their absence now was something of a surprise, and left a sizeable vote up for grabs. This made the Tories optimistic, but a six point increase to 30% meant there was a small swing to the LibDems overall. Labour with over a quarter of the vote, also a modest increase, whilst the Greens might have got less than 5% but even that was up a bit on 2017. An unusual outcome with all four contestants increasing vote share!

Northampton DC - Labour hold with 43% of the vote and a rise of 17 points from three years ago - a decisive outcome by recent standards in this ward where highly fragmented fields have been the norm. The smaller predecessor ward returned 1Con/1LD in 2007 with Labour just behind, then the first election on present boundaries (and an extra councillor) split 1Lab/1LD/1C in 2011; Labour took the LibDem seat in 2015 but the elected Tory outpolled 2 of the 3 Labour candidates making it still a very close thing overall. Tories only increased slightly (the overall swing to Labour was over 7%) whilst not far behind was an Independent who had stood here as a LibDem at the last elections, they easily outpolled the official LibDem candidate who dropped 10 points to just 6%. Greens with a little under 5%, down a bit on their previous showing in 2011.

Four contests this week to begin December.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 4:36 pm

The BBC has cancelled its plans to host the Theresa May\Jeremy Corbyn debate, according to Sky TV news.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 4:37 pm

PorFavor wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Should I stop the anagrams?
No!

Or rather On (2)

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 4:38 pm

PorFavor wrote:The BBC has cancelled its plans to host the Theresa May\Jeremy Corbyn debate, according to Sky TV news.

Does the ITV offer still remain on the table?

Post by **adam** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 4:42 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:The BBC has cancelled its plans to host the Theresa May\Jeremy Corbyn debate, according to Sky TV news.
Does the ITV offer still remain on the table?

Apparently so.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 4:42 pm

Andrea Leadsom amendment lost (by, I think, 4 votes).

Post by **adam** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 4:43 pm

Opposition win first contempt vote - defeating government amendment - by 4

Edited to add - snap.

I started looking for anagrams for my post just higher up but will never do that again.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 4:43 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:The BBC has cancelled its plans to host the Theresa May\Jeremy Corbyn debate, according to Sky TV news.
Does the ITV offer still remain on the table?

Yes.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 4:50 pm

Oh dear...

Headteacher leaves primary school after tests investigation

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... estigation

The headteacher and two other staff members have left a London primary school after an internal investigation found that Sats papers had been systematically altered and missing answers added.

A letter to parents with children at the Harris primary academy Philip Lane in Tottenham, north London, said the headteacher, Emma Penzer, the deputy head and another teacher would not be returning to the school, after the year 6 national test results were cancelled.

An initial investigation by the Standards and Testing Agency (STA) in August found pupils had been given too much help while sitting their English and maths standardised tests in May this year.

But the internal investigation by the Harris Federation, the multi-academy trust that took over the school in 2012 despite protests by parents, found examples of direct tampering with test papers.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:01 pm

Ayes 311 noes 293 - Govt loses again by 18 - found in contempt - Starmer up on his feet again demanding immediate publication of legal advice

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:04 pm

MPs back motion declaring ministers in contempt of parliament over Brexit legal advice (Government lost by 18 votes).

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:05 pm

Starmer asks what can be done to ensure that the legal advice is published before next Tuesday’s vote.

John Bercow, the speaker, says it would be “unimaginable” for the document not to be published by then.

Leadsom says it will be published tomorrow.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:06 pm

@PaulfromYorkshire

Whoops!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:09 pm

PorFavor wrote:@PaulfromYorkshire

Whoops!

No worries. It deserves multiple posts.

Honestly, Keir Starmer take a bow. If he doesn't get one of those parliamentarian of the year gongs....

Quite brilliant.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:17 pm

"Government to publish Brexit legal advice after vote loss"

BBC

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:24 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:@PaulfromYorkshire

Whoops!
No worries. It deserves multiple posts.

Honestly, Keir Starmer take a bow. If he doesn't get one of those parliamentarian of the year gongs....

Quite brilliant.

He's not as wooden as he used to be - more at ease, perhaps.

(I don't want, or particularly like, showmanship - but I felt that he was a bit too far the other way. He seems to have got the right balance now.)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:36 pm

There better be something juicy in that legal advice or everyone's going to be rather disappointed

I see Dominic Grieve is having another go at a proper meaningful vote. Could be a game changer.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:41 pm

Willow904 wrote:There better be something juicy in that legal advice or everyone's going to be rather disappointed

I see Dominic Grieve is having another go at a proper meaningful vote. Could be a game changer.

There could of course be no legal advice.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:45 pm

From the G:

Leadsom says government will publish its full Brexit legal advice
Sir Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, asks a point of order. What can be done to ensure the full legal advice is published?

Andrea Leadsom, the Commons leader, says the full legal advice will be published. But she has also asked the privileges committee to investigate the issues that arise from this.

Sounds suspiciously like a stalling tactic. Parliament might not get to see that legal advice before the Brexit vote, after all. Or maybe even a stall on the Brexit vote itself? Could provide an excuse if May feels like dragging this out.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:45 pm

While we wait for the Grieve result, imagine what Nicky Morgan is thinking about....

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:46 pm

Dominic Grieve amendment, ensuring changes to future EU withdrawal motions are possible, passes 321 - 299. Another defeat for May's government!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:46 pm

Dominic Grieve amendment -

Government defeated by 22 votes.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:47 pm

@PF beat you by a microsecond

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:48 pm

Hansard will make interesting reading

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 5:54 pm

From the G:

MPs vote to ensure Commons gets chance to vote for 'plan B' Brexit option in January if necessary
MPs have voted for an amendment that will ensure MPs can vote in favour of a “plan B” option in January if Theresa May’s deal gets voted down. It was passed by 321 votes to 299 - a majority of 22.

This is what Grieve bottled out of in the summer, because May said it would hamper her negotiation. Well, her negotiation is now over, so he's got it through this time. Only time will tell how significant this is. I assume any vote held won't be binding, but May has now lost the option to avoid such a vote altogether and that has to be a good thing. This could free up some MPs to vote against May's deal as it makes a no deal Brexit slightly less likely, but it's still quite a gamble without being certain a majority can be found for an alternative.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 6:04 pm

Isn't the real significance of all this that May's line of "my deal or no deal" is now deader than ever?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 6:28 pm

Faisal Islam
@faisalislam
But - perhaps as appears to be occurring as the PM starts the Meaningful Vote debate - it helps with her last throw of the dice - lay down the gauntlet to the ERG post ECJ/Grieve and say ‘do you want no Brexit or some Brexit?’

Good point.

Even now I wouldn't completely rule out the Tories and DUP closing ranks and scraping May's deal through at the 11th hour. Because for them, as opposed to the opposition, it's only worth voting it down if they believe there's a majority in the Commons for something closer to their own preference. With opinions split between "no deal", Norway+ and a further referendum can anyone be certain they won't end up with something they like even less? They can only know if MPs are talking to each other behind the scenes, something we may surmise but can't know for certain. Whether and by how much May's deal is voted down possibly depends more on what we're not seeing than what we are, I suspect.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 6:29 pm

In other news, Nigel Farage (remember him?) has resigned from the UK Independence Party.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 6:51 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Isn't the real significance of all this that May's line of "my deal or no deal" is now deader than ever?

"May says the choice before parliament is clear; this deal, no deal, or no Brexit".!!!!!!!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 6:58 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Faisal Islam
@faisalislam
But - perhaps as appears to be occurring as the PM starts the Meaningful Vote debate - it helps with her last throw of the dice - lay down the gauntlet to the ERG post ECJ/Grieve and say ‘do you want no Brexit or some Brexit?’
Good point.

Even now I wouldn't completely rule out the Tories and DUP closing ranks and scraping May's deal through at the 11th hour

We have all learned to expect the unexpected by now, but that would mean the DUP totally going back on literally everything they have previously said about May's deal. To put it mildly, its hard to see how she can win over both the ERG *and* the Tory "remainers" simultaneously as well.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 7:12 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:In other news, Nigel Farage (remember him?) has resigned from the UK Independence Party.

Kinda interesting timing, no?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Tue 04 Dec, 2018 7:56 pm

Boris Johnson is just gibbering - more than usual, if you can imagine such a thing.