Leave voters wanted more control over events and a better life. That is what they were promised. That combination is just not possible by leaving the EU.
Not a bad summation of where we are. And a lot of very good reasons why Cameron should never have called a referendum in the first place. With no significant changes being proposed to the EU at this time on which to base a referendum debate on (such as could have been had over Maastricht for instance) it became a proxy for other things, none of which can be satisfactorily resolved by leaving the EU. And I agree that it is only worth voting down May's deal if you are hoping to achieve Norway, remain or no deal. Those proposing a renegotiation (to achieve Canada+ or whatever) need to explain how they are going to resolve the Irish Border issue, as Boris Johnson failed to do so this morning.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 12:49 pm
by Willow904
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I actually feel Amber Rudd has made her bid too, though I haven't seen that reported.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Amber Rudd tells @RSylvesterTimes and @aliceTTimes her first call after re-entering Cabinet was to the Chancellor asking him to #endthefreeze on benefits in April. (link: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -0npkw9lgs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/a… #solveukpoverty
I'm not sure. Is that a bid to curry favour with the Tory membership.....or the Labour membership?!
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 1:00 pm
by AnatolyKasparov
Its the fabled "pitch for the centre ground" methinks.
(maybe even a recognition that insofar as such a thing exists, today's "centre" is in a different place from a decade or more ago)
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 1:02 pm
by PaulfromYorkshire
Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I actually feel Amber Rudd has made her bid too, though I haven't seen that reported.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Amber Rudd tells @RSylvesterTimes and @aliceTTimes her first call after re-entering Cabinet was to the Chancellor asking him to #endthefreeze on benefits in April. (link: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -0npkw9lgs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/a… #solveukpoverty
I'm not sure. Is that a bid to curry favour with the Tory membership.....or the Labour membership?!
I think there is a group of One Nation type Tories like Amber Rudd, Nicky Morgan, Heidi Allen, Sarah Wollaston who somehow believe they can stop being the Nasty Party.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 1:38 pm
by HindleA
As above hitting pensioners at an increasing rate eg.they presumed that less housing support would be needed among homeowners and investigating as to why increase.Strangely enough purposeful.reductions and removals in social security and social care and increased charging has lifelong consequences.
The credibility of the theory I’m about to set out does rather depend on whether he’s a clever person impersonating a stupid one rather than the other way around. But let me explain...
I'd hate to think he's slightly stupid, but smart enough to read all the clever theories on how he could become pm.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 1:53 pm
by gilsey
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I actually feel Amber Rudd has made her bid too, though I haven't seen that reported.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Amber Rudd tells @RSylvesterTimes and @aliceTTimes her first call after re-entering Cabinet was to the Chancellor asking him to #endthefreeze on benefits in April. (link: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -0npkw9lgs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/a… #solveukpoverty
I'm not sure. Is that a bid to curry favour with the Tory membership.....or the Labour membership?!
I think there is a group of One Nation type Tories like Amber Rudd, Nicky Morgan, Heidi Allen, Sarah Wollaston who somehow believe they can stop being the Nasty Party.
They give hypocrites a bad name.
At least the likes of Heseltine acted like he cared, meaning taking action such as voting/policymaking, not the other sort of acting which they're quite good at.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 1:59 pm
by HindleA
In general I dislike.the hand-wringing angst it's difficult stuff when it clearly isn't and the I've been given/secured assurances stuff.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 2:05 pm
by HindleA
Being proud with beaming face at donating your surplus food (courtesy of tax payers)at the need you have deliberately created,that's what I say.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 2:12 pm
by HindleA
Desperate need to feel superior and to be seen to be flaunting it in peoples' faces,here's a tin of beans you pathetic beings.
HindleA wrote:As above hitting pensioners at an increasing rate eg.they presumed that less housing support would be needed among homeowners and investigating as to why increase.Strangely enough purposeful.reductions and removals in social security and social care and increased charging has lifelong consequences.
Also we have gotten away with low state pensions up to a point (though many fall through the gaps) because of high home ownership, council houses and some decent private and public sector pensions - none of which can be relied upon going forward if we remain on current trajectory. We are storing up some serious pensioner poverty issues for the future.
The credibility of the theory I’m about to set out does rather depend on whether he’s a clever person impersonating a stupid one rather than the other way around. But let me explain...
I'd hate to think he's slightly stupid, but smart enough to read all the clever theories on how he could become pm.
I think it was pretty obvious that Johnson's pitch for No 10 was based on being a leave supporter in a remain scenario. It all went horribly wrong when we voted out but it's conceivable, if not especially likely, that he could have another run at it. I certainly can't fault the truth of this sentence:
Johnson is much better suited to making messes than he is to clearing them up.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 2:49 pm
by AnatolyKasparov
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I actually feel Amber Rudd has made her bid too, though I haven't seen that reported.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Amber Rudd tells @RSylvesterTimes and @aliceTTimes her first call after re-entering Cabinet was to the Chancellor asking him to #endthefreeze on benefits in April. (link: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -0npkw9lgs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/a… #solveukpoverty
I'm not sure. Is that a bid to curry favour with the Tory membership.....or the Labour membership?!
I think there is a group of One Nation type Tories like Amber Rudd, Nicky Morgan, Heidi Allen, Sarah Wollaston who somehow believe they can stop being the Nasty Party.
Interesting that quite a few are women (though Guy Opperman is a male Tory MP very much in that tradition)
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 3:27 pm
by RogerOThornhill
I guess that if you want to convince people that Brexiteers are really lovely, ordinary folk; then bringing a set of gallows on a march is exactly the sort of thing one does...
Labour ready to seize power THIS Wednesday over Brexit declares Corbyn ally Jon Trickett
If the DUP abstained on a no confidence vote, would Labour have the numbers? And supposing they do, would Corbyn be able to command a majority? I feel the SNP have been pretty clear it would take membership of the single market to win their support. Would Labour be prepared to offer this? And what about those still holding out for a further referendum? Would they be on board? A lot of unanswered questions. And where does this leave Dominic Grieve's recently won "meaningful vote" amendment? Does that come before a confidence vote?
Labour ready to seize power THIS Wednesday over Brexit declares Corbyn ally Jon Trickett
If the DUP abstained on a no confidence vote, would Labour have the numbers? And supposing they do, would Corbyn be able to command a majority? I feel the SNP have been pretty clear it would take membership of the single market to win their support. Would Labour be prepared to offer this? And what about those still holding out for a further referendum? Would they be on board? A lot of unanswered questions. And where does this leave Dominic Grieve's recently won "meaningful vote" amendment? Does that come before a confidence vote?
Surely the DUP would have to vote with Labour. Unless there are Tory rebels or abstentions.
But there are plenty of signals that the DUP could vote against. I would if I were them.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 9:01 pm
by PaulfromYorkshire
So, this happened to me on Twitter today (with other Tweets on the side).
@PaulbernalUK Three Brexiters against @CarolineLucas. Good luck Caroline!!
@PaulfrYorkshire Three politicians with entrenched positions on Brexit vs one who seeks consensus. Good luck Barry! @BarryGardiner
@PaulbernalUK It would be lovely if that were true. Lovely.
@PaulfrYorkshire But I think it is Paul. IMHO there is FAR too little talk about what the middle ground looks like.
@ShakeyStephens The middle ground is the #PeoplesVote
@PaulfrYorkshire #PeoplesVote is by design divisive. Doesn't make it wrong. But it's specifically framed to avoid consensus.
@PaulbernalUK When you’re already divided, calling it divisive is misleading at best, manipulative more likely.
@PaulbernalUK And trying to ‘unify’ people by taking only one side - the hard Brexit side - is expecting submission and enforcing subjugation.
@ShakeyStephens I'm pro we should just laugh it off. Ie remain no vote The #PeoplesVote is the middle
@PaulbernalUK It’s the only middle ground possible right now. Anyone who doesn’t think it’s middle ground clearly expects to lose it....
@PaulfrYorkshire Except AS I SAID I am an ardent Remainer - I genuinely fear Remain will lose. But more than that the division a #PeoplesVote will cause scares me witless.
@PaulbernalUK It doesn’t look as though you’re listening. We’re already hideously divided. Imagining that a second referendum will make that worse is denying reality. Why???
@ShakeyStephens Still love to know what they fear
@PaulfrYorkshire So when Leave wins again you will happily acquiesce and go along with it?
@ShakeyStephens Why would leave win again?
@PaulfrYorkshire Because folk still don't think the EU is on their side? Rightly or wrongly. #WakeUp
@PaulbernalUK And you pretend you were a remainer? *ho ho*
@PaulfrYorkshire And there I rest my case. You can't believe I voted Remain. You understand nothing at all.
@PaulbernalUK You need to drop the Brexiter language if you want to appear like a real remainer. Just a thought.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 9:20 pm
by AnatolyKasparov
The point is that Brexit *could* win again in another referendum, and that so many advocates of another vote aren't even willing to admit that is not a good sign.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 9:28 pm
by RogerOThornhill
This is very amusing...
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Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 9:31 pm
by PaulfromYorkshire
AnatolyKasparov wrote:The point is that Brexit *could* win again in another referendum, and that so many advocates of another vote aren't even willing to admit that is not a good sign.
Indeed.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Sun 09 Dec, 2018 11:44 pm
by Sky'sGoneOut
I know fine well brexit could win another referendum, I know brexiters and yes I have to admit they're still as stupid and racist as ever, and I say that with no qualms whatsoever.
But at least this time it would be an informed choice.
Well for those who could be arsed to inform themselves.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Mon 10 Dec, 2018 12:07 am
by Sky'sGoneOut
Regardless, Tuesday should be fun.
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Mon 10 Dec, 2018 12:38 am
by refitman
How is Rees-Moggs' tailoring so, so bad, when he has so much money?
Re: Saturday 8th & Sunday 9th December 2018
Posted: Mon 10 Dec, 2018 11:08 am
by PaulfromYorkshire
Meaningful vote to be pulled after all?
Jessica Elgot reporting Cabinet conference call at 11.30
