Monday 29th September 2014

[refitman]

Hmm if you tick the unthreaded box on the politics live blog then the nesting dissapears. I can see the many complaints starting but once you do that it actually looks useable.

It changes it to Newest first though (and you can't change it to oldest). It also disables replies and recommends. It is irredeemably broken and they haven't listened to any of the feedback they have already had (http://www.theguardian.com/info/develop ... experience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

[AnatolyKasparov]

I think the fact it is Hong Kong *does* make a difference - but yeah, the potential for it all ending horribly is certainly there

[refitman]

You are all very kind.

When I said on AS's blog last week that I wouldn't be posting much, I had some lovely comments from people. It's nice to be appreciated, but the fact is that I learn more from reading contributions there than I impart.

Today, I am mostly incensed that the whole thing is in the Beta format which is absolute utter pants. If only half the people who claim they won't post there any more actually leave, it'll be even more horrific.

Urgh. I've just visited the site and seen the awfulness of Beta on my desktop.

And that's me finished with the Guardian. Why would I want to go to a site that is uncomfortable to look at?

Every time they change it, they make it worse and drive people away. Idiocy. IMO they only brought in nesting because a few people who liked that format lobbied noisily, while the vast majority of people who were happy with the way things were didn't say anything - though by the time the extent of the hatred for nesting was apparent, they were committed. Now I wonder if they aren't trying to appeal more to advertisers with a 'modern' looking site and hang the users.

There was a hell of a lot of noise about the nesting. I think the comment thread on it ran to 2000+ comments, almost all negative. But they just ignored them. They had a thread about the beta comments and they've just ignored that as well.

[PorFavor]

Urgh. I've just visited the site and seen the awfulness of Beta on my desktop.

And that's me finished with the Guardian. Why would I want to go to a site that is uncomfortable to look at?

Every time they change it, they make it worse and drive people away. Idiocy. IMO they only brought in nesting because a few people who liked that format lobbied noisily, while the vast majority of people who were happy with the way things were didn't say anything - though by the time the extent of the hatred for nesting was apparent, they were committed. Now I wonder if they aren't trying to appeal more to advertisers with a 'modern' looking site and hang the users.

There was a hell of a lot of noise about the nesting. I think the comment thread on it ran to 2000+ comments, almost all negative. But they just ignored them. They had a thread about the beta comments and they've just ignored that as well.

Do you think Julian Whatisname has had any input?

[letsskiptotheleft]

Full write up of the twitter post Spacedone wrote earlier, all jokes aside, and pardon the language but this is fucking outrageous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[refitman]

Every time they change it, they make it worse and drive people away. Idiocy. IMO they only brought in nesting because a few people who liked that format lobbied noisily, while the vast majority of people who were happy with the way things were didn't say anything - though by the time the extent of the hatred for nesting was apparent, they were committed. Now I wonder if they aren't trying to appeal more to advertisers with a 'modern' looking site and hang the users.

There was a hell of a lot of noise about the nesting. I think the comment thread on it ran to 2000+ comments, almost all negative. But they just ignored them. They had a thread about the beta comments and they've just ignored that as well.

Do you think Julian Whatisname has had any input?

I'm going to find him, print out a copy of their coffee-shop survey and insert it into him

[letsskiptotheleft]

Osborne ''don't concede the NHS to Labour, the real party of the NHS is in this hall today.''

There are no words.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Osborne really seems to be going for Labour's narrative that people aren't feeling the effects of the so called recovery, as well he would, it's true.

[Spacedone]

Full write up of the twitter post Spacedone wrote earlier, all jokes aside, and pardon the language but this is fucking outrageous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow. Just wow. Actually threatening any business that doesn't tow the Tory line. Party of business indeed.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Full write up of the twitter post Spacedone wrote earlier, all jokes aside, and pardon the language but this is fucking outrageous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow. Just wow. Actually threatening any business that doesn't tow the Tory line. Party of business indeed.

Jim Sillars was roasted alive for using less threatening language.

[JackPranker]

I'm actually unable to post comments on The Guardian. I think my boss may have input into the new design.

[ohsocynical]

Hmm if you tick the unthreaded box on the politics live blog then the nesting dissapears. I can see the many complaints starting but once you do that it actually looks useable.

Having had eye problems until very recently and remembering the problems I had with some web sites, the Beta format and black font is vision friendlier, and I think looks cleaner and 'classier'.

I personally don't like the Font they are using, but I suspect that may be for their American readers benefit.
There is a Font that is supposed to be the easiest for dyslexics to read. It's not that different from the one they're using and would have been a nice gesture.

However, there is an awful lot of white space and with one article the column was on the right hand side, which made for uncomfortable reading.
I filled in the questionnaire and said if they had a lot of white space, why not put the column in the middle of the page? Reading on the right felt uncomfortable. I suspect though they'll be filling that white space with adverts. Our eyes [mostly] go to the left to begin reading, so if they put the ads there, we'll be less likely to avoid them.

Agree though that it's a mess to get to or find the bit you want to read.

I said that it would probably do splendidly for mobile phone users who only 'popped' in to skim the news or be a nuisance BTL. Therefore advertising revenue should do well.

Finally. Moderation seemed to have gone to the dogs and where it used to be the first stop of the day, I don't bother much any more.

[LadyCentauria]

You are all very kind.

When I said on AS's blog last week that I wouldn't be posting much, I had some lovely comments from people. It's nice to be appreciated, but the fact is that I learn more from reading contributions there than I impart.

Today, I am mostly incensed that the whole thing is in the Beta format which is absolute utter pants. If only half the people who claim they won't post there any more actually leave, it'll be even more horrific.

Urgh. I've just visited the site and seen the awfulness of Beta on my desktop.

And that's me finished with the Guardian. Why would I want to go to a site that is uncomfortable to look at?

Every time they change it, they make it worse and drive people away. Idiocy. IMO they only brought in nesting because a few people who liked that format lobbied noisily, while the vast majority of people who were happy with the way things were didn't say anything - though by the time the extent of the hatred for nesting was apparent, they were committed. Now I wonder if they aren't trying to appeal more to advertisers with a 'modern' looking site and hang the users.

Agreed, mostly. Regarding the last sentence, though; it's not so much appealing to advertisers with a 'modern' looking site, quite. I'd imagine that they've looked at internet-device usage trends and seen that the trend is definitely away from desktop computers, through laptops/netbooks, and heavily toward smart-phones and tablets. The last two, phones in particular, are the most used devices, hordes of people only have smart-phones. Sales in those two categories are growing exponentially while sales of laptops, and especially of desktops, are shrinking quite quickly. So the potential market of readers and commenters, who are the target of advertisers, are likely, by now, to be predominantly users of those smaller mobile devices.

The Graun's web-site's cookies do lots of things. One of those things is to check what browser and operating system we're using so that they serve up their pages in the way that best displays on that browser and OS. So, they'll have been watching their collected data and seeing the trend toward mobile devices running iOS, or one of the many flavours of Android, or Windows, Blackberry, etc., There is also a trend in desktop and laptop OSs to replicate the look and feel of the mobile OSs; and for web-sites/companies to want a 'seamless experience' across mobile and less mobile devices. Where, in the earliest days of smart-phones, desktop users wanted smartphones displays to replicate their desktop experience, that has all changed.

Most new/young internet users, now, are starting their online lives on 'phones and (if they're lucky) tablets. They want everything to look like the mobile versions of sites that they're accustomed to. And so the web-sites are redesigned around a 'more mobile experience', more easily scalable up-or-down to fit the various screen sizes across all types of computer-device. The web-sites still have to serve their content up to suite a very wide range of sizes and shapes of device, and to work with touch-screens as well as keyboards, mouses, and trackpads. They save money on design for one 'look', of course. But, as time goes by they stop supporting older operating systems, and with them older browsers, so those of use stuck in the computing dark-ages of the 2000s lose the layouts we're familiar with, lose functionality that is supposed to be available on the new designs, and risk losing access of any sort to some sorts. I dread, daily, that any particular web-site will just sit there whirring until it says, "Sorry, your browser/device is not supported", which happens with increasing regularity.

Anyway, the long and the short of it is: mobile is the future, and the now, that's where the money is, get a mobile device or a laptop/desktop running one of the latest three OSs and latest three iterations of certain browsers, keep up or shut up. But the Graun brings back an un-threaded version because it is utterly crappy to scroll up and down through on a mobile, handheld device – and people want to know what's happening now, not in the past. I'm off for a bit of escapism with Fred Dibnah and people building a brand-new ancient traditional timber-framed building. And a cup of tea and a quiet sob after listening to, and shouting at, The Effing Chancellor!

[ohsocynical]

Hmm if you tick the unthreaded box on the politics live blog then the nesting dissapears. I can see the many complaints starting but once you do that it actually looks useable.

It changes it to Newest first though (and you can't change it to oldest). It also disables replies and recommends. It is irredeemably broken and they haven't listened to any of the feedback they have already had (http://www.theguardian.com/info/develop ... experience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

I managed recommends using 'Oldest Post First', but couldn't see a Reply facility. [I'm using Chrome]

[ohsocynical]

Full write up of the twitter post Spacedone wrote earlier, all jokes aside, and pardon the language but this is fucking outrageous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had to read it twice.
If that doesn't show people we'll be in deep doo-doo in 2015 if they get in, then nothing will...

How dare anyone make threats like that let alone an MP.

[PaulfromYorkshire]

@Temulkar @Anatoly

Re: Hong Kong

Yes that's my fear too.

[ohsocynical]

Full write up of the twitter post Spacedone wrote earlier, all jokes aside, and pardon the language but this is fucking outrageous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had to read it twice.
If that doesn't show people we'll be in deep doo-doo in 2015 if they get in, then nothing will...

How dare anyone make threats like that let alone an MP.

To add.

I was always told if someone comes out with a curse, derogatory name, or an outrageous suggestion, then says they didn't mean it, it was a one off, or didn't know where it had come from, they're liars...Because the mouth only blurts out, what has been a familiar thought in the brain. Or has been said, but in closed circles.

Redwood though has really let the cat amongst the pigeons...And if the business community doesn't take serious offence at the threat, then we really are doomed.

I honestly can't believe it! Incredibly stupid? Reckless? Desperate? Hard to find a word that fits. Whatever - I hope it backfires spectacularly on them.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Iain Dale has been told, by a usually reliable source that another UKIP defection is imminent..

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Full write up of the twitter post Spacedone wrote earlier, all jokes aside, and pardon the language but this is fucking outrageous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had to read it twice.
If that doesn't show people we'll be in deep doo-doo in 2015 if they get in, then nothing will...

How dare anyone make threats like that let alone an MP.

To add.

I was always told if someone comes out with a curse, derogatory name, or an outrageous suggestion, then says they didn't mean it, it was a one off, or didn't know where it had come from, they're liars...Because the mouth only blurts out, what has been a familiar thought in the brain. Or has been said, but in closed circles.

Redwood though has really let the cat amongst the pigeons...And if the business community doesn't take serious offence at the threat, then we really are doomed.

I honestly can't believe it! Incredibly stupid? Reckless? Desperate? Hard to find a word that fits. Whatever - I hope it backfires spectacularly on them.

I agree. Unbelievable. I suppose it mirrors the new law that stops charities campaigning. Silencing the opposition isn't likely to end well.

[danesclose]

Iain Dale has been told, by a usually reliable source that another UKIP defection is imminent..

Apparently Chris Kelly has been pretty much incommunicado since Reckless:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09 ... 96972.html

[AngryAsWell]

Iain Dale has been told, by a usually reliable source that another UKIP defection is imminent..

Apparently Chris Kelly has been pretty much incommunicado since Reckless:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09 ... 96972.html

Some on twitter last night were saying it will happen just before Cameron's speech for most impact

[letsskiptotheleft]

Iain Dale has been told, by a usually reliable source that another UKIP defection is imminent..

Apparently Chris Kelly has been pretty much incommunicado since Reckless:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09 ... 96972.html

He's standing down isn't he, in a Labour marginal, now wouldn't it be sweet if Labour nabbed this seat?

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Europe's Austerity Disaster by Joseph Stiglitz

http://www.social-europe.eu/2014/09/eur ... y-disaster" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Iain Dale has been told, by a usually reliable source that another UKIP defection is imminent..

Apparently Chris Kelly has been pretty much incommunicado since Reckless:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09 ... 96972.html

He's standing down isn't he, in a Labour marginal, now wouldn't it be sweet if Labour nabbed this seat?

From Electoral Calculus = Lab Gain

[letsskiptotheleft]

Bloody Tories, I have a garden I need to see to, but they are providing too much entertainment.

Alistair Burt:

Finally the J Redwood mask slips away with his threat to business which disagrees with him. I thought we were democrats? Surely misguoted?

[letsskiptotheleft]

Breaking: Osborne to freeze working age benefits

Yes, some 25 billion worth, who says work pays eh? If you're on the bottom of the ladder it doesn't.

[ohsocynical]

I had to read it twice.
If that doesn't show people we'll be in deep doo-doo in 2015 if they get in, then nothing will...

How dare anyone make threats like that let alone an MP.

To add.

I was always told if someone comes out with a curse, derogatory name, or an outrageous suggestion, then says they didn't mean it, it was a one off, or didn't know where it had come from, they're liars...Because the mouth only blurts out, what has been a familiar thought in the brain. Or has been said, but in closed circles.

Redwood though has really let the cat amongst the pigeons...And if the business community doesn't take serious offence at the threat, then we really are doomed.

I honestly can't believe it! Incredibly stupid? Reckless? Desperate? Hard to find a word that fits. Whatever - I hope it backfires spectacularly on them.

I agree. Unbelievable. I suppose it mirrors the new law that stops charities campaigning. Silencing the opposition isn't likely to end well.

I am almost speechless. You just can't threaten people like that for Gods sake. We're supposed to be a civilised society...It's a bit ragged these days but even so.
It has to be one for the history books. And yet there is very little about it on the Tweets I follow.

[Spacedone]

Breaking: Osborne to freeze working age benefits

Yes, some 25 billion worth, who says work pays eh? If you're on the bottom of the ladder it doesn't.

That's about half of the non-pension part of the total benefits budget isn't it? Basically anyone who isn't a pensioner can sod off and die.

[StephenDolan]

I disagree with the "don't vote" message, but Brand is doing an excellent job getting the young questioning the information output by the traditional media sources.

Mainstream Media Corruption Is Killing People [youtube]n8sgxsS4T0c[/youtube]

Plus it gave me a chance to try embedding

[RogerOThornhill]

The AS blog has gone back to normal.

[StephenDolan]

The AS blog has gone back to normal.

Does that mean Beta free or full of tory trolls?

[TechnicalEphemera]

The AS blog has gone back to normal.

Can FTN tweet AS a link to the Telegraph Redwood story.

New Tory Slogan - Shut up or we hurt you.

[RogerOThornhill]

The AS blog has gone back to normal.

Does that mean Beta free or full of tory trolls?

Beta free.

[LadyCentauria]

Woot! Sorry.

The Andrew Sparrow blog is now displaying in Classic View (that is the version to which we are accustomed.) Oh, just noticed you had all noticed... Perhaps he/someone is reading here – or the flurry of Surveys... Or, yep, perhaps the trolls.

[letsskiptotheleft]

My loathing for Matthew Hancock knows no limits, here he whines we have ''to tackle the deficit'' an acknowledgement then that nearly 4 1/2 years later you still have no clue, Neil in fairness rips him to pieces.

[youtube]Zr2g_lgyrvY[/youtube]

[ohsocynical]

The AS blog has gone back to normal.

Can FTN tweet AS a link to the Telegraph Redwood story.

New Tory Slogan - Shut up or we hurt you.

Suddenly he was 'misquoted'.

It's suddenly disappeared off their web page, but I put the link on Twitter earlier:

Here it is.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html

[letsskiptotheleft]

The AS blog has gone back to normal.

Can FTN tweet AS a link to the Telegraph Redwood story.

New Tory Slogan - Shut up or we hurt you.

Suddenly he was 'misquoted'.

It's suddenly disappeared off their web page, but I put the link on Twitter earlier:

Here it is.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html

Labour press are finally retweeting links about it now, Blanchflower and a few others too.

[LadyCentauria]

Hmm if you tick the unthreaded box on the politics live blog then the nesting dissapears. I can see the many complaints starting but once you do that it actually looks useable.

It changes it to Newest first though (and you can't change it to oldest). It also disables replies and recommends. It is irredeemably broken and they haven't listened to any of the feedback they have already had (http://www.theguardian.com/info/develop ... experience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

I managed recommends using 'Oldest Post First', but couldn't see a Reply facility. [I'm using Chrome]

Just checked and Chrome is at the top of their recommended browsers list. So who knows why there is no option to reply. Perhaps Beta is broken – or, rather, breaking in all sorts of different and interesting ways on all sorts of different pages, on all sorts of devices, and for all sorts of different and interesting users.

Oh, and from Beta style pages, if you want Accessibility or Help or FAQs or anything else useful, you have to:
Scroll to foot of page>Select info and resources>Scroll down that page until you find Accessibility, or Help, or etc.,

[PorFavor]

My loathing for Matthew Hancock knows no limits, here he whines we have ''to tackle the deficit'' an acknowledgement then that nearly 4 1/2 years later you still have no clue, Neil in fairness rips him to pieces.

[youtube]Zr2g_lgyrvY[/youtube]

I think, given recent events, it might be wise for the Conservatives to avoid using the word "tackle".

[AngryAsWell]

Can FTN tweet AS a link to the Telegraph Redwood story.

New Tory Slogan - Shut up or we hurt you.

Suddenly he was 'misquoted'.

It's suddenly disappeared off their web page, but I put the link on Twitter earlier:

Here it is.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html

Labour press are finally retweeting links about it now, Blanchflower and a few others too.

The link not working now

[ohsocynical]

My loathing for Matthew Hancock knows no limits, here he whines we have ''to tackle the deficit'' an acknowledgement then that nearly 4 1/2 years later you still have no clue, Neil in fairness rips him to pieces.

[youtube]Zr2g_lgyrvY[/youtube]

I think, given recent events, it might be wise for the Conservatives to avoid using the word "tackle".

Or member

[ohsocynical]

Suddenly he was 'misquoted'.

It's suddenly disappeared off their web page, but I put the link on Twitter earlier:

Here it is.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html

Labour press are finally retweeting links about it now, Blanchflower and a few others too.

The link not working now

I've just clicked it and it went straight to the right page.

[letsskiptotheleft]

Labour press are finally retweeting links about it now, Blanchflower and a few others too.

The link not working now

Don't suppose anyone took a screengrab?

No, but I found this, not as good as the original article sadly..

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-09-2 ... senseless/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AngryAsWell]

Labour press are finally retweeting links about it now, Blanchflower and a few others too.

The link not working now

I've just clicked it and it went straight to the right page.

Thank - prob my internet - keeps dropping in and out

[AngryAsWell]

The link not working now

Don't suppose anyone took a screengrab?

No, but I found this, not as good as the original article sadly..

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-09-2 ... senseless/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The link from there goes to the original

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Can FTN tweet AS a link to the Telegraph Redwood story.

New Tory Slogan - Shut up or we hurt you.

Suddenly he was 'misquoted'.

It's suddenly disappeared off their web page, but I put the link on Twitter earlier:

Here it is.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... dwood.html

Labour press are finally retweeting links about it now, Blanchflower and a few others too.

That's nice to see I copied Blanchflower in our Tweet on the subject

[PaulfromYorkshire]

Just in case I've grabbed the Telegraph piece.

and great to see FTN helping to generate some heat

[LadyCentauria]

Breaking: Osborne to freeze working age benefits

Yes, some 25 billion worth, who says work pays eh? If you're on the bottom of the ladder it doesn't.

That's about half of the non-pension part of the total benefits budget isn't it? Basically anyone who isn't a pensioner can sod off and die.

Well, they've got to get the money from somewhere in order to guarantee companies their profits on top of their increased fees and more expensive contracts to carry out the testing of some claimants and teaching the others to write CVs, do job-searches on invisible computers, and um 'stuff', haven't they.
Oh no, "Laydeez and Gentlemen... It's Our Chum, Eric Pickles." I half expected the house band to launch into something cheeky-cheery-chappie with trombone slides... Conference has been cancelled in favour of a bottom of the bill music-hall 'comedian.'
Edit to add: Ah, how sweet. He just gave a mention to "our children, FlyTheNest" Bless.

[PorFavor]

Esther McVey has just claimed to be a compassionate Conservative. What does Grant Shapps have to say about that?

[PorFavor]

Heeeere's Iain!