Saturday 15th & Sunday 16th December 2018

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 8:23 am

Morning

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 8:25 am

Off to the library as per usual on Saturday's.
(Pot of tea and scone,none of that research nondense)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 8:29 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -across-uk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 8:49 am

Good morfternoon.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 9:25 am

Mordred tries tempestuously to bring snow later (5,7).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 11:04 am

HindleA wrote:Off to the library as per usual on Saturday's.
(Pot of tea and scone,none of that research nondense)

Roger won't be impressed

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 11:09 am

Amber Rudd is on manoeuvres. (That's not an anagram clue, by the way.)

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 11:26 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
HindleA wrote:Off to the library as per usual on Saturday's.
(Pot of tea and scone,none of that research nondense)

Roger won't be impressed

No, indeed I'm not.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 11:35 am

I wasn't impressed by the suspension of the free biscuit.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 11:36 am

Even though it was barely bigger than a crumb.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 11:52 am

"Nondense"now randomly changing letyers

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 12:03 pm

PorFavor wrote:Amber Rudd is on manoeuvres. (That's not an anagram clue, by the way.)

She is wasting her time tbh, there is no way she would ever win the backing of a mostly pro-Brexit Tory membership.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 12:34 pm

Nigel Farage - who, of course, isn't a politician, no sireeh - calls politicians "gangsters" (Sky TV news).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 3:12 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... hester-zoo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 3:21 pm

PorFavor wrote:Nigel Farage - who, of course, isn't a politician, no sireeh - calls politicians "gangsters" (Sky TV news).

"..........without a shot being fired" - never forget

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 5:58 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Amber Rudd is on manoeuvres. (That's not an anagram clue, by the way.)
She is wasting her time tbh, there is no way she would ever win the backing of a mostly pro-Brexit Tory membership.

If the govt lost a confidence vote, does the party leader have to be the pm, i.e. could a govt be, theoretically, formed by, say Amber Rudd, with the support of other parties?

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 6:25 pm

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org. ... aments-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The (Not So) Fixed-term Parliaments Act"
Attempted to answer my own question, it all sounds very messy, but think it would be feasible (if not very likely) at one extreme, to have a vote of no confidence, either Conservative or Labour to form a govt, revoke article 50, then probably collapse...

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 8:04 pm

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/s ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"The Scottish Tories are preparing to back a second Brexit referendum"

“When I look at what’s going on down south, I feel appalled and embarrassed,” one prominent MSP tells me. “I hate the English party. I’m horrified at the support for no deal being expressed by party members. I’ve stopped reading ConservativeHome.”

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 8:06 pm

Though this has apparently since been "officially denied", as ever motwyw.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 8:29 pm

I keep hearing that the latest migrants trying to make the Channel crossing are trying to beat "Brexit". Why would "Brexit" make any difference to that particular set of people? (Nobody, of course, is pointing this out. Or am I missing something obvious?) I can understand that people traffickers might be spinning that line, but the UK audience is being fed it aswell.

Edited - typo

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 8:47 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Though this has apparently since been "officially denied", as ever motwyw.

Even the bit about Conservativehome?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 9:06 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... government" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -of-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 9:29 pm

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/st ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 10:00 pm

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 15 Dec, 2018 10:02 pm

PorFavor wrote:I keep hearing that the latest migrants trying to make the Channel crossing are trying to beat "Brexit". Why would "Brexit" make any difference to that particular set of people? (Nobody, of course, is pointing this out. Or am I missing something obvious?) I can understand that people traffickers might be spinning that line, but the UK audience is being fed it aswell.

Edited - typo

https://www.thelocal.fr/20181127/is-bre ... y-boat/amp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

French authorities have warned of a surge in the number of migrants attempting the dangerous crossing of the English Channel by boat to reach Britain, which they have suggested could reflect fears among migrants that the border will be shut after Brexit.

Some Brexiteer types probably happy to maintain the illusion of borders being closed, to appeal those who thought that was going to happen?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 1:00 am

@tinybgoat

Yes - that's what I was trying to get at. But I'd have hoped the media would be, at this stage, more balanced and point out the facts.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 3:22 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... -education" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 5:23 am

https://www.accessable.co.uk/articles/a ... birmingham" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 8:30 am

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2018/d ... ant-review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 8:44 am

https://www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/catastr ... YA.twitter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 9:57 am

More than one paper front page this morning saying that a second referendum is being planned by the government.

And a bit of silliness from the Express which latches onto a story from the Centre for Social Justice which it descibes as a "leading think-tank".

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 10:34 am

A man after my own heart.
A call for the revocation of Article 50

The key fact is this. The Government has, quite simply, not managed to come up with a vision of Brexit which is able to command sufficient support, either in Parliament or in the country. Brexiters have disowned the Withdrawal Agreement. Support for no deal is also very low. Parliament, in triggering Article 50 in March 2017, agreed to allow the Government to pursue and deliver Brexit. The Government, however, has not proved up to the task

A great advantage that he doesn't mention is that the opprobrium for overriding TWOTP would fall on MPs, where it belongs, instead of further dividing the people.

I know, it'll never happen, but what will?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 10:39 am

Ken Clarke, a sane voice in a deranged world, is absolutely right about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -the-abyss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about Ken Clarke, Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband collectively sort it out and have done with it.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 10:40 am

Rather unfortunate choice of words from Long-Bailey here:

Kevin Schofield
@PolhomeEditor
Shadow Business Secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey suggests she's opposed to a second EU referendum: "I think we need to respect the referendum." Says it should only be an option "in an extreme situation". #Ridge
9:22 AM · Dec 16, 2018 · Twitter Web Client

There are arguments against a second referendum, it's a perfectly acceptable line to take. The problem is the second bit and the implication that we're not in "an extreme situation" already! Plenty of comments below the line to this effect.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 10:52 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... omplacency" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is so striking about the political chaos at Westminster is the sheer wilfulness of it all. It is not a response to a plague or a famine, a war or an invasion. Britain’s crisis has deep causes, of course, though most of them (the effects of austerity, the loosening of the union) are self-generated. But at the political level most of it seems to be happening purely for its own sake. It is all gestures and poses.

Quite

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:05 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
Ken Clarke, a sane voice in a deranged world, is absolutely right about this.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -the-abyss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How about Ken Clarke, Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband collectively sort it out and have done with it.

Before the clock runs down, the sensible MPs who care about their country need to take the initiative and establish a mechanism to determine which, if any, of the possible resolutions to the Brexit nightmare might command majority support. Ken Clarke, a sane voice in a deranged world, is absolutely right about this. Yet most MPs are still too trapped in partisan tribalisms and the pursuit of short-term term tactical advantage to initiate the cross-party pursuit of a solution that is urgently required.

This is what you assume is happening behind the scenes, MPs talking to each other to try to feel out a way forward that would get cross party support in the house, but more and more the whole lot of them just look like rabbits frozen in headlights, clinging to their various favoured positions in the hope that something might turn up.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:06 am

Would anyone looking at the goings-on in Westminster over the past fortnight seriously believe that Britain is a settled democracy?

from the link above.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:30 am

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... b8aea7f47f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cabinet ministers who campaigned for remain have thrown their weight behind hard Brexit policies as Theresa May allies were reported to be secretly planning for a second referendum.

Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt, who has told the Sunday Telegraph he wanted a “crack” at being prime minister, has said that the UK would “flourish and prosper” if it left the EU with no deal.

And according to the Sunday Times, his fellow remainer and potential rival for the Tory leadership, Home Secretary Sajid Javid, is backing a plan to cut EU immigration to 10,000 post-Brexit with a slew of stricter rules.

Almost as if what happens to the actual country doesn't really matter.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:32 am

It certainly doesn't seem to matter to the tories.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:34 am

Hunt as slimy as ever, there.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:38 am

Sajid javid seems to ignore the fact that non-EU net migration is far greater than for the EU.

Non-EU net migration was the highest since 2004, with 248,000 more non-EU citizens arriving than leaving the UK and at a similar level to that seen in 2011. Increases in immigration for both work and study have been seen in the most recent year, particularly for Asian citizens.

The overall number of EU citizens coming to the UK continues to add to the population as 74,000 more EU citizens came to the UK than left. This was the lowest estimate for EU net migration since 2012 and the lowest immigration level since 2014

Kinda weird that this is the number they can do something about if they wanted to achieve that "tens of thousands" target but seem to ignore it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:52 am

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/ ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 11:58 am

^^^

"Man with Down's Syndrome"

I know from a friend who has a daughter with Down's that the way she is described matters greatly.

Odd that it doesn't seem to happen with other conditions - Cancer woman? TB man?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 12:06 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... referendum" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A group including Lavery fear that if they call a vote and fail to force a general election they will not only have united the Tories, but will then themselves come under greater pressure to back a second referendum. The party’s Brexit spokesman, Keir Starmer, is understood to be less resistant, believing that Labour must find a moment soon to call the vote and then, if it loses, be ready to back a second referendum.

I think Starmer's right. If May doesn't come back to the house with her deal before Christmas she can't be permitted simply to shelve Brexit until January. Allowing her to drag this out is allowing her to indulge her plan of taking it down to the wire and leave MPs with no choice other than her deal or no deal. If any other option is to be pursued it has to start its journey now or risk running out of time - whether it's a GE, people's vote or Norway option - all of them require time to play out, extensions to be requested etc, none of which is going to be realistic come February. If Labour wait until their plan is sure to succeed they'll be waiting til the end of time. May pulled the vote to avoid their well publicised strategy of rejecting it and following with a no confidence vote. Their plan has therefore already failed, in a way, so they need a new strategy and calling a no confidence vote over her failing to bring her deal to the house by the end of the year seems a better plan to me than quietly coalescing in her provocative delay. Waiting doesn't feel like an option anymore. It's crunch time. Cards on the table time. I can forgive Labour for having poor cards, they've got what they've been dealt with, but I wouldn't be able to forgive them for not playing what they've got until the stakes are so high that when they lose they lose everything rather than just a little. Surely it's worth testing the water? A failed no confidence vote now will tell them where they stand without preventing another no confidence vote later if the dynamics should change. Fearing "pressure" to support a referendum if a no confidence vote fails is a pathetic excuse as it's the same as saying they fear a referendum has more support than a GE which basically means they already know they're outnumbered and can't win in which case, by delaying, they are making May's deal or no deal far more likely by resisting the only option that could command the majority necessary to prevent them.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 12:10 pm

Hi all

Well the UK is in a pretty pickle isn't it?

We have no functioning Government, who seem to be doing all they can to cling onto power with no concern for the wider impact. We have an opposition that has its own splits but at the same time is impotent unless they can woo a group of archaic loons and get them to go against their political cousins. And in addition to this we have a small but influential group of establishment non-entities who inhabit the same self-reinforcing bubble and who lack the intelligence to be aware of their own weaknesses.

Not to mention a pathetically inadequate media

And to compound it all we have a British public that is politically immature and really doesn't understand (in the large) what is happening, the serious of the situation and the need to take some time to understand the true stakes.

I think we have to be aware that the whole political system is on the verge of collapse....the opposition is being blamed for things over which they have control. The Government is being allowed to ride roughshod over British democratic institutions (I think we now see that UK democracy is based on a sham and convention that has no power to protect itself. The power is in the Crown and so the only emergency break is the Crown reasserting power of the delegated powers it has given to the PM. If the PM wants to behave like a dictator, as May is starting to do, then there is no recourse to the courts. What has been the punishment for being in contempt - in the civil world it is prison?)

We do not like to use words like 'dictator' but I cannot see what else is happening at the moment

I am really starting to worry that there is not much that can be done - and the blame falls on the shoulders of the Tory Party - starting with Cameron and now May. Yes, Blair didn't help with his policy decisions at times and Corbyn has his personal baggage but it is minor when we look back at the true fault

Funny though that we see the media focusing on the Labour party and dreams about what could happen in an ideal wold, whilst May still lumbers on without anything to stop her apart from 10 religious and political dinosaurs - and who would really bet on them ever bringing down a Tory Government?

The political make up of the UK will not be the same after this - my wish for a socialist future will be blown away by this and, to be honest, I am not feeling particularly positive to the EU either at the moment. A lecherous drunk leading the commission, a weak Parliament, fascistic influences everywhere and a right wing neoliberals still selling a failed political and economic model

Sorry, not to be more positive but even after last week the bastard Tories are getting away with virtually no criticism and May is unbelievably being praised for her incompetence

We laugh at the US with Trump but we have our own flawed leader but we seem to think we are so much better than they are - this complacency and hubris will do for us - and it goes further than the Brexiteers and includes not a few extreme retainers as well

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 12:19 pm

This has the link to Ivan Rogers speech about Brexit.

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The JRMs, Goves, Patterson, Hoeys of this world should be made to sit down and read it.

And, I would, add those campaigning for a 2nd referendum...

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 12:20 pm

oh and to add

I know that a second vote sounds fine but I think we need to be very cautious about this. There are a number of pro-retainers who are very reluctant to

There is no electoral mandate
There is no guarantee of a parliamentary majority
There is no consensus on the questions
There is no guarantee of winning
The consequences of losing (or even winning) could be grave

It does not mean we cannot go ahead with it but the idea that this is a simple decision is wrong and I am glad to hear that there is a lot of debate in the Shadow Cabinet because it is a difficult and important decision. Ignore the LD and the Greens and the siren voices in the media. One of the potential consequences is that the Labour and Tory Parties will be blown asunder (personally I think there is more risk to Labour actually) and someone will benefit

Labour is accused of 'politicking' by people here and elsewhere but I think there is more cynical manipulation going on elsewhere

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 12:21 pm

I am more optimistic than you in that if the worst does happen, the government won't be able to palm off blame for the resultant disaster on anybody else.

But much of the rest of your litany reads depressingly true, howsilly.

In particular, our media is utterly broken - and at the centre of it all is a BBC that has become a servile state broadcaster that would suit the likes of Putin, Erdogan or Orban.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 12:27 pm

And this:

And finally, the solidarity of the club members will ALWAYS be with each other, not with you. We have seen that over the backstop issue over the last 18 months. The 26 supported Dublin, not London. They still do. Nothing the Prime Minister now bids for will change that.

Quite. What did people expect?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 16 Dec, 2018 12:38 pm

I'm assuming a further referendum has more hope of commanding a majority in parliament than any other option because Keir Starmer was hinting Labour may have to get behind one. I'm pretty certain this isn't because it's his preferred option but because it's possibly the only option. As he has more insight into where everyone stands than I do I'm having to come around to accepting one may have to happen. It would at least spare Labour the difficulty of compiling a manifesto that doesn't completely annihilate a large chunk of either their leave or remain voters - an impossibility in my opinion.

I still think a single market solution is the best way forward, personally, I always have, but currently it's looking like the least likely outcome, despite some support on the Tory backbenches.