Saturday 22nd & Sunday 23rd December 2018

Post by **refitman** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 8:30 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 8:46 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stat ... t-v-ofsted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Statement on Court of Appeal judgment: Durand Academy Trust -v- Ofsted

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 8:50 am

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ck-academy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Financial notice to improve: Berwick Academy
A financial notice to improve issued

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 9:57 am

Re the Corbyn interview in the Graun this morning, the pledge to repeal the Vagrancy Act is more important than restating the previous position on Brexit. Whatever their spin.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 10:28 am

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 95861.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
George Osborne has denied “a lack of money” following his harsh austerity programme is the cause of Britain’s homelessness crisis.

The former Conservative chancellor dismissed growing warnings that the severe spending cuts he introduced lie behind the explosion in rough sleeping, saying: “No, I entirely reject that.”

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-5814224" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cameron: ‘I’ve no regrets in calling the EU referendum’

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... leaving-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Labour leader insisted that even if his party won a snap general election in the new year, he would seek to go to Brussels and try to secure a better deal – if possible, in time to allow Brexit to go ahead on 29 March.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 10:49 am

What AK said.There is no "balance" between contrived (and to the point of hysteria) diversionary nonsense and indisputable attempts to counter the active purposeful harm of Government

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 10:53 am

There is no "on the other hand"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 10:55 am

I find the volte face from previous "must attend.to being elected" ists hypocrisy ,appalling.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:02 am

There is no bigger "cult" around currently than the #FBPE one.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:04 am

The Labour leader insisted that even if his party won a snap general election in the new year, he would seek to go to Brussels and try to secure a better deal – if possible, in time to allow Brexit to go ahead on 29 March.

“You’d have to go back and negotiate, and see what the timetable would be,” he said

Two weeks for the government to try to regain confidence after a no confidence vote, four weeks for an election, you're looking at a new government coming in about 3 weeks before 29 March. The EU have said it will take 6-8 weeks to ratify the withdrawal agreement once it's been approved by the UK parliament, so no, we don't need to see what the timetable will be, we already know it can't be done by 29 March.

A new government will have 3 weeks to seek an extension of article 50 which hopefully would be granted but it is unlikely it will be possible to extend it beyond the end of June. That would give a new government enough time to get May's deal passed and ratified with, at most, some tweaking to the future declaration and perhaps a return to the original Irish backstop agreed last December.

Will the DUP be tempted to risk losing seats in a GE to secure these tweaks? It seems to me, that only the whole of the UK staying in the single market would solve their problems. If a Coalition with the SNP becomes necessary, they would also seek to stay in the single market. And that's before you even start looking at whether Labour can win an election with this policy. Although it's also hard to see what policy could work for the Tories.

Corbyn's sanguinity in this article belies the complexity and uncertainty of his plan. What he makes sound easy is anything but and is uncomfortably reminiscent of a similar bullish confidence among Tory Brexiters.

What is really uncertain is what happens if May wins the no confidence vote and this is perhaps the most important thing of all. If parliament were to decide we need another referendum and May was to respect that I can see no way it can be done without revoking article 50. Such an outcome would suit the DUP but would e disastrous for the Tories. It seems unlikely, but if the deal isn't passed, remaining in the Eu is the only other way of avoiding crashing out with no deal and as there's supposedly a majority against no deal....

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:07 am

Though it is fairly clear that if we either get a new PM or a new elected government early in 2019, the EU will give us more time. Whatever they may publicly claim right now.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:17 am

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:18 am

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/ ... cial-media" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Galsworthy welcomes this, stressing the need to build a “broad umbrella” of pro-EU activists. “There’s a significant number of pro-EU people among the Corbyn supporter base – the #PCPEU hashtag took off pretty damn quickly.”

But not Corbyn himself. It's not that I'm anti-Corbyn but it certainly is that I'm anti-leave. I can't help but wonder how different things might be if it were not the case that the leaders of both of our relevant political parties want to leave.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:21 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Though it is fairly clear that if we either get a new PM or a new elected government early in 2019, the EU will give us more time. Whatever they may publicly claim right now.

But there are legal issues with extending article 50 beyond the start of the new EU parliament. It may not be in the EU's gift to give us more time.

BTW, even with a transition deal in place there was some question over whether we could remain in Eurotom. Has anyone heard any more about this, was it ever resolved?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:28 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/ ... cial-media" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Galsworthy welcomes this, stressing the need to build a “broad umbrella” of pro-EU activists. “There’s a significant number of pro-EU people among the Corbyn supporter base – the #PCPEU hashtag took off pretty damn quickly.”
But not Corbyn himself. It's not that I'm anti-Corbyn but it certainly is that I'm anti-leave. I can't help but wonder how different things might be if it were not the case that the leaders of both of our relevant political parties want to leave.

Corbyn's primary motivation is and always has been keeping Labour's voting coalition together. As he says this morning, over 60% of Labour voters may have chosen remain in 2016 - but that means approaching 40% went the opposite way. And he backed remain himself, as did our current PM.

That article is from the start of this year, tbh I haven't noticed much progress in building this "broad coalition" since then. Much more the likes of the utterly egregious Tim Walker ceaselessly attacking all those who are not "true believers" (his latest classic last night, claiming Corbyn doesn't have any female supporters)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:34 am

60% is more than 52% and a lot more than either 40% or 37%.

I suppose I'm coming from a direction of wondering if keeping the voting coalition together is such a great idea. If it means representing 40% instead of 60% what's the point? I am still a member of the Labour party but only by default. Since Brexit is going to be a disaster, why not bite the bullet and disrupt our meaningless two-party democracy now. It's going to have to happen at some point.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:35 am

(runs away)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:36 am

Neither of them backed remain in spirit as far as I can see.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:38 am

(runs away more quickly)

Post by **refitman** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:39 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re the Corbyn interview in the Graun this morning, the pledge to repeal the Vagrancy Act is more important than restating the previous position on Brexit. Whatever their spin.

From the Corbyn article in the Graun:

The Labour leader insisted that even if his party won a snap general election in the new year, he would seek to go to Brussels and try to secure a better deal – if possible, in time to allow Brexit to go ahead on 29 March.

“You’d have to go back and negotiate, and see what the timetable would be,”

At no point does he rule out cancelling Brexit. I fully believe that Labour could negotiate a better deal then Davis et al, however, if the result of the negotiations fails to meet the 6 tests, then they can come back and say "can't get better than we have now, it's off".

He's making the point that there was a vote to leave (however many problems there are with the result) and the manifesto was to proceed with Brexit, but Labour have caveats on the process and deal and there is room to scrap it.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:42 am

Willow904 wrote:
The Labour leader insisted that even if his party won a snap general election in the new year, he would seek to go to Brussels and try to secure a better deal – if possible, in time to allow Brexit to go ahead on 29 March.

“You’d have to go back and negotiate, and see what the timetable would be,” he said
Two weeks for the government to try to regain confidence after a no confidence vote, four weeks for an election, you're looking at a new government coming in about 3 weeks before 29 March. The EU have said it will take 6-8 weeks to ratify the withdrawal agreement once it's been approved by the UK parliament, so no, we don't need to see what the timetable will be, we already know it can't be done by 29 March.

A new government will have 3 weeks to seek an extension of article 50 which hopefully would be granted but it is unlikely it will be possible to extend it beyond the end of June. That would give a new government enough time to get May's deal passed and ratified with, at most, some tweaking to the future declaration and perhaps a return to the original Irish backstop agreed last December.

Will the DUP be tempted to risk losing seats in a GE to secure these tweaks? It seems to me, that only the whole of the UK staying in the single market would solve their problems. If a Coalition with the SNP becomes necessary, they would also seek to stay in the single market. And that's before you even start looking at whether Labour can win an election with this policy. Although it's also hard to see what policy could work for the Tories.

Corbyn's sanguinity in this article belies the complexity and uncertainty of his plan. What he makes sound easy is anything but and is uncomfortably reminiscent of a similar bullish confidence among Tory Brexiters.

What is really uncertain is what happens if May wins the no confidence vote and this is perhaps the most important thing of all. If parliament were to decide we need another referendum and May was to respect that I can see no way it can be done without revoking article 50. Such an outcome would suit the DUP but would e disastrous for the Tories. It seems unlikely, but if the deal isn't passed, remaining in the Eu is the only other way of avoiding crashing out with no deal and as there's supposedly a majority against no deal....

Don't forget that Corbyn, Starmer and others have been going to Brussels regularly and speaking to the EU, they wouldn't be going into this cold.

That's not to diminish the scale of the task and the fact that any deal at the end will be considerably worse than what we have now.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:49 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Neither of them backed remain in spirit as far as I can see.

That is, inevitably, a matter of opinion.

My own view, expressed several times in the past two and a half years, is that Corbyn's "7 out of 10" was closer to where the public actually stood - and not just as a whole, but amongst the 48% who voted remain - than any "the EU is unimprovably perfect" boosterism.

(and of course after the vote, many of those who slated him for that comment also advocated driving a coach and horses through freedom of movement)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 11:53 am

refitman wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
The Labour leader insisted that even if his party won a snap general election in the new year, he would seek to go to Brussels and try to secure a better deal – if possible, in time to allow Brexit to go ahead on 29 March.

“You’d have to go back and negotiate, and see what the timetable would be,” he said
Two weeks for the government to try to regain confidence after a no confidence vote, four weeks for an election, you're looking at a new government coming in about 3 weeks before 29 March. The EU have said it will take 6-8 weeks to ratify the withdrawal agreement once it's been approved by the UK parliament, so no, we don't need to see what the timetable will be, we already know it can't be done by 29 March.

A new government will have 3 weeks to seek an extension of article 50 which hopefully would be granted but it is unlikely it will be possible to extend it beyond the end of June. That would give a new government enough time to get May's deal passed and ratified with, at most, some tweaking to the future declaration and perhaps a return to the original Irish backstop agreed last December.

Will the DUP be tempted to risk losing seats in a GE to secure these tweaks? It seems to me, that only the whole of the UK staying in the single market would solve their problems. If a Coalition with the SNP becomes necessary, they would also seek to stay in the single market. And that's before you even start looking at whether Labour can win an election with this policy. Although it's also hard to see what policy could work for the Tories.

Corbyn's sanguinity in this article belies the complexity and uncertainty of his plan. What he makes sound easy is anything but and is uncomfortably reminiscent of a similar bullish confidence among Tory Brexiters.

What is really uncertain is what happens if May wins the no confidence vote and this is perhaps the most important thing of all. If parliament were to decide we need another referendum and May was to respect that I can see no way it can be done without revoking article 50. Such an outcome would suit the DUP but would e disastrous for the Tories. It seems unlikely, but if the deal isn't passed, remaining in the Eu is the only other way of avoiding crashing out with no deal and as there's supposedly a majority against no deal....
Don't forget that Corbyn, Starmer and others have been going to Brussels regularly and speaking to the EU, they wouldn't be going into this cold.

That's not to diminish the scale of the task and the fact that any deal at the end will be considerably worse than what we have now.

Yes, I accept that.

What I don't accept is that it's possible for Labour to win a GE and renegotiate and ratify by March 29 and there's a basic dishonesty in giving the impression that it's possible which makes me distrust him. If he's being disingenuous about this, what else is he being disingenuous about?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 12:02 pm

I don't think the EU's perfect in any shape or form - but I do think that for something as complex as it is it has built a reasonably coherent foundation on which to build. But there's a big difference between wanting to improve the EU and wanting to leave it. I'm very curious about the idea of planning to keep your party together by deciding to observe the wishes of less than half of it. That smacks of a certain type of complacency and I wonder what that means for UK politics in the long-term.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 12:03 pm

The other thing to bear in mind, is that this appears to be edited highlights of an interview and, as such, may be missing some nuance, or even whole chunks of what was said.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 12:06 pm

refitman wrote:The other thing to bear in mind, is that this appears to be edited highlights of an interview and, as such, may be missing some nuance, or even whole chunks of what was said.

Bear? Bare? I can never remember which to use for that phrase..

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 12:12 pm

refitman wrote:
refitman wrote:The other thing to bear in mind, is that this appears to be edited highlights of an interview and, as such, may be missing some nuance, or even whole chunks of what was said.
Bear? Bare? I can never remember which to use for that phrase..

You got it right in that case

Post by **refitman** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 12:14 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
refitman wrote:
refitman wrote:The other thing to bear in mind, is that this appears to be edited highlights of an interview and, as such, may be missing some nuance, or even whole chunks of what was said.
Bear? Bare? I can never remember which to use for that phrase..
You got it right in that case

Phew!

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 12:20 pm

I'm like that with led and lead and read and read ...

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 12:38 pm

refitman wrote:The other thing to bear in mind, is that this appears to be edited highlights of an interview and, as such, may be missing some nuance, or even whole chunks of what was said.

I'm even more dismayed when I hear him actually talking about Brexit tbh. There's this interview, but I believe there are others, where he disingenuously implies we could use the transition period to renegotiate, ignoring the fact we would have to ratify May's deal to secure transition:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 1:30 pm

Another example here:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Rafael Behr
@rafaelbehr
At 3:47 in this interview Corbyn cites transition period as allowing Labour to negotiate a different deal, although he must* know transition is condition of withdrawal agreement he is opposing.

What he clearly says, that we have already secured transition so can use it to renegotiate the withdrawal agreement, is not true, so he is being misleading and because I know he is misleading people over this I can't then be certain what else he is misleading people over.

I appreciate such dissembling is a common feature in politics but it's an unattractive feature and undermines trust. Ultimately I can't put my faith in someone who would repeatedly lie about something as important as this.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 1:37 pm

Which doesn't mean I agree with other criticisms of Corbyn, mind. This from Nick Cohen is unbelievably hysterical:

Nick Cohen
@NickCohen4
You can be an anti-racist or you can be a supporter of the Labour party. But you can't be both

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 1:41 pm

While on holiday in Lubeck earlier this year I purchased a light-activated dancing bear.
Make of that what you will - my point is that it is close to the end of December, and it is sufficiently sunny that he is dancing.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 1:50 pm

(exit clanger chased by a dancing bear)

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 2:49 pm

I think you meant to type "this from Nick Cohen is unbelievably normal, for him" there

Whilst saying this stuff, he is happy to write for a publication that has a confirmed Nazi on its books and articles such as "in praise of the Wehrmacht".

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 3:56 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -injection" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fine in itself but the context is of heightening eligibility and excitement about robotic /technological replacement in lieu of any human interaction?But what do I know my best friend is a lawn mowing tortoise.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 4:00 pm

Equal best friend.Guy the ex boxer gorilla who things he is the Pope not best pleased with previous statement.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 4:35 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -injection

Fine in itself but the context is of heightening eligibility and excitement about robotic /technological replacement in lieu of any human interaction?But what do I know my best friend is a lawn mowing tortoise.

£15bn cut from local councils, leading to library and day centre closures, will be generously offset by £11m to a handful of charities.

Who needs local services, when you can have tax cuts and token gestures.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 4:44 pm

By not having been born into the aristocracy most of us (feel deep down that we) don't deserve a decent standard of living. Having allowed ourselves to be distracted by industrial rather than political revolution this remains our cultural bottom line. (IMO)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 4:46 pm

I'm sure James Brokenshire will be happy to explain that rising loneliness has nothing to do with the government pursuing policies they were warned would lead to rising loneliness - such as axing of meals on wheels services (https://www.theguardian.com/society/pat ... ocial-care" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) - but due to the fault of individuals making silly choices like living in a village with a bus service when they can't drive a car without properly considering that the bus service might one day be axed because of central government cuts. Still, £11m. Sure to make all the difference.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 5:06 pm

The free bus pass a rather unacknowledged indisputable good ,the conversations I have had with the recently bereaved (you can "sense" the connection)are numerous

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 5:12 pm

HindleA wrote:The free bus pass a rather unacknowledged indisputable good ,the conversations I have had with the recently bereaved (you can "sense" the connection)are numerous

The Council here used to provide taxi tokens (if a person was unable to use buses). They (the tokens) were abolished (by the then Conservative Council) a few years ago.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 5:13 pm

But of course,as above,you've got to have a bus.Why I keep ploughing the misrepresentation of "taking a car away" is that it is independent mobility in general,of course none of us are actually truly independent,we don't build our own roads,networks etc.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 5:18 pm

Tories,a lethal mix of misanthropy and epic false economy.They then expect plaudits for the minimal to counter for what they have exacerbated.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 6:31 pm

Sorry to return to Corbyn and Brexit, but there's quite a row going on over on Twitter and I've got a question related to it. Here's someone taking issue with Corbyn's interview where he laid out post election plans to renegotiate a deal:

Darren Jones MP
Darren Jones MP
@darrenpjones
Just to be clear: this isn’t Labour Party policy. Our official policy, endorsed by conference on behalf of the whole party, is to: reject the PMs deal, call for a General Election and - failing that - back a
@peoplesvote_uk

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My question being, if all this was settled at conference, with Labour pushing for a GE as their main policy, was it also explicitly agreed what Brexit policy Labour would put in its manifesto? I'm assuming no, so maybe for some people Corbyn's interview really is the first time they really truly realised what has been obvious to others for some time i.e. that in a snap GE Labour would be campaigning for Brexit, not a further referendum as a majority of supporters would prefer.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 7:16 pm

AFinch · Post by **AFinch** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 7:18 pm

Rare appearance from me. This is from Labour Conference. More specifically: https://twitter.com/SeemaChandwani

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 7:19 pm

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/je ... 96111.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What I thought most striking about the interview, though, was his comment about EU state aid rules: “I don’t want to be told by somebody else that we can’t use state aid in order to be able to develop industry in this country.” That is a pure sovereignty argument from a lifelong believer in socialism in one country.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 7:21 pm

If Corbyn continues to ignore Labour members – by which, of course, I mean if he continues to adhere unflinchingly to his principles – then the prime minister will make the House of Commons vote as often as it takes for enough Labour MPs to vote or to abstain to allow her deal to be ratified.

comments from the better informed than me?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 22 Dec, 2018 7:27 pm

I wonder about the degree to which a GE involving a Labour party still espousing no people's vote (even though I'm not sure about it myself) would actually "sweep the Tories from power". What's the current view on that?

Oh yes - and PTO.