Saturday 29th & Sunday 30th December 2018

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:05 am

Morning.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -subsidies" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

US-style industrial farms receive millions in subsidies

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:10 am

The questioning as to whether an MP should be a council tenant is really about something else as is the same questioning,indeed targeted penalisation of "the wrong type"of people daring to live where they want,regardless of type of housing.IMHO

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:14 am

Across the spectrum,the "sufficiently pathetic"/segregation riff is widespread.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:18 am

How dare people not fit into categories,behave accordingly and know their place,shouldn't be allowed.Smash the barriers not least the attitudinal.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:23 am

Good-morning, everyone

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:28 am

Prepare your business for the UK leaving the EU
Use this tool to find out:
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https://www.gov.uk/business-uk-leaving-eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have we seen this?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:30 am

FWIW I enjoy my resistance to being categorised,treat everybody regardless with the same disdain,experience as much as you can,mix from pauper to Prince,from park bench to the "best hotels in the World.Classlessness is good for you IMHO.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:31 am

Has anyone used it?
7 simple questions
Is all this a Monte Python skit?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:33 am

HindleA wrote:FWIW I enjoy my resistance to being categorised,treat everybody regardless with the same disdain,experience as much as you can,mix from pauper to Prince,from park bench to the "best hotels in the World.Classlessness is good for you IMHO.

Yes, I noticed that about you
It's wonderful

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:35 am

Tea and nicotine,essential.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:36 am

Having no class I find rather easy.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:39 am

No calculation or guile
You're trustworthy

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:44 am

HindleA wrote:Having no class I find rather easy.

Same here

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:45 am

PfY got a hot Hodgkin for services to the anagram industry.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 8:16 am

Uh oh,teachers about,behave everybody.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 8:20 am

Nothing is beneath me or above,limiting yourself diminishes.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 8:26 am

Work,culture,life.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 8:34 am

Off to do my usual "research" at the library

(Self piss taking clarification)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 9:02 am

This has really annoyed me, from Matthew Parris, praised by Ian Birrell and Steve Richards.

MPs must be brave and tell us we were wrong

It's in the Times so I can't read it.

Misinformed and manipulated perhaps, but to say the electorate was wrong shows these guys understand nothing at all.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 9:35 am

the comments beneath this Owen Jones' article are a piece of work

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ial-tenant
More MPs should live in council housing. It’s not meant to be a poor ghetto

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 9:41 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:This has really annoyed me, from Matthew Parris, praised by Ian Birrell and Steve Richards.
MPs must be brave and tell us we were wrong
It's in the Times so I can't read it.

Misinformed and manipulated perhaps, but to say the electorate was wrong shows these guys understand nothing at all.

It's a quip title
Was it Parris' or did his work get called that by someone else?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 9:57 am

The cavalier way people argue tossing someone out of their council home based on their earnings is shocking

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 10:02 am

@JA

His own I think. As I say I can't read the whole to look for nuance.

And fully agree with you (and HA) on the housing thing.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 10:25 am

I mean its not as if many Labour "moderates" telling the bulk of the party "you're wrong" over the last three years has been a roaring success or anything.

(certain of the same individuals resurfacing as #FBPEers is of course purely coincidental)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 10:50 am

"An ennui hangs over British politics and the prime minister is depending on it. Like a thin, wearisome fog it does not quite obscure but it blurs and greys, softening edges and dulling our reactions as we head into the new year. Brexit? Oh, for God’s sake. Haven’t we done enough of that?

No we have not. These very few weeks ahead, these weeks when change is still possible, await, still fluid, before everything fixes. Yesterday I watched a grim little video from the Home Office telling EU citizens legally resident here that they will have to make a new application to confirm their status. The Leave campaign promised this would not happen. I felt, again, so ashamed of where our country could go.

These are the last days and this is the last time when, looking back and perhaps by then impotent, we shall understand it still remained possible to stop this thing. Little more than three weeks are left for MPs to choose. It is so important that at this critical stage moral courage does not ebb.

In all animals, including the human kind, the anaesthetic power of an imminent and, once taken, final step is curious. An approaching moment of truth has a weird potency to tip us straight from “not yet” to “too late”. The approach up the aisle to the altar is hypnotic. Mad wars, marriages and investments have been entered upon for no better reason.

We’re very close now to tipping over the edge: an edge which (as I wrote here last week) will be no cliff but the start of a decades-long and one-way slide down a long and gentle slope, pushed by a generation of foolish old men who will soon enough be waving goodbye to the younger generation they’ve been kneeing in the back. MPs must think again before it’s too late. Westminster needs one big, final slap about the face, one big inrush of cold air into the festive torpor.

I exclude from this discussion that minority of parliamentarians in all parties who genuinely want a “proper”, “clean-break” Brexit. There is no arguing with faith. But it’s doubtful their numbers amount to so much as a quarter of today’s House of Commons. Among commentators too much time has been devoted to reading the runes of their various undertakings to sink (or not) Theresa May’s European exit deal — and, to be sure, if they act as a bloc they can.

But life is too short to deconstruct the mental processes of Peter Bone, MP. I’m permanently wary of relying on Brexiteers’ pledges to block the prime minister’s chosen path because were I them I would fear it could prove the only Brexit available. They may well cave in, to live today and make trouble on the other side of March 29.

Nor should we waste time beating our fists against Jeremy Corbyn’s “irresponsibility”, “procrastination” etc. Fate has handed this leader of the opposition a rare gift: the chance to see the achievement of something he has always wanted, but which he knows may prove a vote-loser — but with the Tories, not his own party, blamed for it. “After you, Theresa,” makes so much sense for Corbyn that he must be discounted as an ally.

So put aside Corbyn and the old-fashioned hard left. Put aside the Tory “European Research Group” zealots. It is to the rest, the more than 400 MPs who are deeply uneasy about where we’re going, that we must turn. Where are they?

Let them try this simple thought experiment. The UK does not have to hold a referendum before entering or dissolving a major international treaty. So imagine our government had been minded to leave the EU with no referendum. Having negotiated draft terms, they now present parliament with essentially Mrs May’s proposals. These are (remind yourself) that unless or until we can work out something better, we remain an economic satellite of the EU, unable to strike our own trade deals, but losing our place on European decision-making councils, our membership of its trans-national projects and institutions. “Here’s my plan,” says the PM to parliament. “Shall we proceed?”

Do you imagine a single MP in any party would vote for it? Would a single newspaper, a single media commentator, a single think tank or research body, recommend acceptance? Of course not. All sides would throw up their hands in horror of such a mad idea.

So it’s all about the 2016 referendum, isn’t it? MPs are being asked to approve a huge change for our country in 2019 that they would never have dreamed of touching, were it not for a referendum in 2016. Fair enough, but be honest about it: we’re doing it because the voters asked us to. We do not, however, believe the voters reached the right decision.

Why does this era have such difficulty in saying that last sentence? Surely the whole idea of representative rather than “direct” democracy is to provide counterbalance against a sometimes faulty popular judgment.

Everybody knows that the people can sometimes reach the wrong conclusion because we know that we ourselves sometimes do so. Who doubts that popular opinion in the 1930s was wrong to favour appeasing Germany? Who doubts that in the 1950s the public were wrong to cheer on politicians towards the Suez debacle? The public, for a while, have been wrong about many great issues: slavery, hanging, flogging, the imprisonment of homosexuals. So if you believe in democracy you should believe in so much that must come with it: persuasion; a little foot-dragging; re-thinking; give and take on both sides. Politics negotiates with popular opinion: it doesn’t just take dictation.

Our present impasse offers unusual scope for negotiation with the electorate. We did instruct government to negotiate Brexit but there’s no reason why, nearly three years later, we can’t be asked to judge the result. Are so few MPs ready to square up to their voters and use the language of second-thoughts?

I worked for the Commons of 1974 and was a member of the Commons of 1979 and 1983. Today’s MPs are as bright or brighter, as honest or honester, and wonderfully more diverse, than those earlier parliaments. But, then, we believed in ourselves. Perhaps we were too pompous. But there needs to be a reserve of self-respect if not self-regard among today’s parliamentarians. Grave decisions face them over the coming days; without self-belief, they may not rise to the occasion"

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 10:57 am

Redwood gets a knighthood for being prepared to turn up at the BBC at any hour of the day or night to spout bollocks about Brexit.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 11:10 am

Redwood's knighthood
another shocking piece of work

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 11:11 am

Amateur,I can spout bollox about anything.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 11:14 am

@cja the "reverse" in our case,separated container ships of different colours is the drift,if you get my meaning.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 11:23 am

Income level is a crap way to "distinguish" even if you think you should.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 11:33 am

@HA

Thanks for the Parris article.

There's something fundamentally wrong with it, insofar as all the issues (I think) that he says the public was wrong about were not put to a Referendum.

Parris seems unable to reconcile the possibility that despite Brexit being objectively a very bad idea, the public could still have been "right" to vote Leave. That is the paradox of the situation that few public figures grasp.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 12:03 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@HA

Thanks for the Parris article.

There's something fundamentally wrong with it, insofar as all the issues (I think) that he says the public was wrong about were not put to a Referendum.

Parris seems unable to reconcile the possibility that despite Brexit being objectively a very bad idea, the public could still have been "right" to vote Leave. That is the paradox of the situation that few public figures grasp.

Now that is an interesting philosophical question!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 12:22 pm

HindleA wrote:Income level is a crap way to "distinguish" even if you think you should.

I agree
It's demoralising when people with everything in common turn on each other; the presumptuously rude, nosy, dictatorial pronouncements about what others can and can't have on their income
it's degrading for all involved
miss the point much?
Why not regularly expose and decide where the wealth of big money goes?
By all means, people, question resource management
but don't sit there arguing with others over crumbs while one walks out with almost the whole bag of biscuits

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 12:26 pm

pathological refusal holding bastards responsible for continued squandering of lives, time and resources

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 12:29 pm

HindleA wrote:Income level is a crap way to "distinguish" even if you think you should.

Of course it is
Most people have to exchange their time for wages
we're working class
adoration and reverence are for art and sport

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 12:36 pm

What is Grieve up to?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... um-eu-deal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 12:47 pm

1 January The government’s energy price cap takes effect. This has been set at £1,137 a year for a typical dual-fuel customer who pays by direct debit. The energy regulator, Ofgem, says 11 million consumers will get a fairer deal and typical customers on the most expensive tariffs will save £120 a year.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/ ... year-ahead" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

£1,137 is over £400 more a year than our current jacked up energy prices
we could turn everything off and our energy bill would equal the price cap maximum

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 1:02 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Parris seems unable to reconcile the possibility that despite Brexit being objectively a very bad idea, the public could still have been "right" to vote Leave. That is the paradox of the situation that few public figures grasp.

Yes, people voting against their own economic self-interest in favour of what they deem to be a "higher" ideal.. get out of the EU no matter what the cost to the country or to themselves.

The DM, Sun, Telegraph etc have done their work well over the years...

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 3:10 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
Parris seems unable to reconcile the possibility that despite Brexit being objectively a very bad idea, the public could still have been "right" to vote Leave. That is the paradox of the situation that few public figures grasp.
Yes, people voting against their own economic self-interest in favour of what they deem to be a "higher" ideal.. get out of the EU no matter what the cost to the country or to themselves.

The DM, Sun, Telegraph etc have done their work well over the years...

Though that mindset has long pre-dated 2016.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 3:56 pm

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2018/1 ... rexit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What will happen if Labour enable Brexit

Referendum fever appears to be spreading.

When Brexit will not get you free from state aid, will not heal the nation, and will just lose you votes, it is time for the Labour leadership to put ideology aside and help take the issue back to the people.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 5:45 pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/acti ... resilience" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

News story

Activity ‘passport’ to inspire schoolchildren and boost resilience

Hmm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 5:50 pm

A teenage birthday card from a Tory MP inspired me to extra effort from an already existing disdain for the vermin party,not to say resilience to their hypocritical bullshit

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 5:57 pm

Tarquin refused his knighthood for lawnmowing efforts

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 6:10 pm

https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the depths of despair, a journey on a night bus brings me solace

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:20 pm

The purpose of targeted debt,hunger,homelessness facillitation,life derichment and shortening is to build resistance or something.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:24 pm

I like "derichment",if the word doesn't exist,it should.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:29 pm

"In bed listening to Miss Marple at 7.30 on a Saturday evening"

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:30 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@HA

Thanks for the Parris article.

There's something fundamentally wrong with it, insofar as all the issues (I think) that he says the public was wrong about were not put to a Referendum.

Parris seems unable to reconcile the possibility that despite Brexit being objectively a very bad idea, the public could still have been "right" to vote Leave. That is the paradox of the situation that few public figures grasp.
Now that is an interesting philosophical question!

So what do you do if you've been standing in a corner saying "I think your EU could be a good idea in principle, but it's not quite working for me" and everyone ignores you?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:32 pm

I should add I doubt may people actually vocalised that.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 29 Dec, 2018 7:58 pm

P.T.O.