Friday 18th January 2019
Posted: Fri 18 Jan, 2019 7:21 am
Morning all.
oh for chrissakeCorbyn could face string of resignations if he backs 'people's vote'
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... oples-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)
- Walt Whitman
(1819-1892)
I take your point about the philosophy of it - but Willow904 nails the practicalities, I think.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Willow
What is achieved by refusing to support the WA is a negotiating hand isn't it?
It's the moment for Corbyn and Starmer to get modifications to the political declaration in return for their support I'd say.
May isn't showing much signs of being open to that, which is presumably why Corbyn declined the opportunity to put such proposals when asked.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:@Willow
What is achieved by refusing to support the WA is a negotiating hand isn't it?
It's the moment for Corbyn and Starmer to get modifications to the political declaration in return for their support I'd say.
Its an illustration that the simplistic media/FBPE line that Corbyn's personal stubbornness is the only thing stopping this, is baloney.citizenJA wrote:oh for chrissakeCorbyn could face string of resignations if he backs 'people's vote'
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... oples-vote" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
this is completely absurd
he'll get ripped if he doesn't and same if he does
I can only hope this bullshit is news spinning
enough
I'm absolutely terrified of Tory government with good cause
Anyone paying attention must understand our danger from them
I don't disagree that voting with the government would be damaging to Labour, it's rarely a good policy for an opposition and I completely understand their reluctance. This isn't a normal situation though. In opposing May, Labour is siding with the extreme far right of the Tory party against the more moderate centre. Particularly worrying is Labour echoing the far right's misrepresentation that the deal is a "bad deal". It's an ok deal, the sort of deal any government would have ended up negotiating. It's only bad in the sense that leaving the EU is bad. Using the lies of our ideological enemies because they are politically expedient is an extremely dangerous game to play and I can't help but fear it is not going to end well.AnatolyKasparov wrote:The current Labour "strategy" is making sure that the Tories "own" Brexit and the consequences of it. That has been consistent for the past 2 and a half years.
(the only possible exception to this was most Labour MPs voting for A50 - but there were reasons for that, and it is a mistake to think Corbyn imposed it on an unwilling PLP)
May and her government are going to continue to be in power whether the withdrawal agreement is passed or not.citizenJA wrote:I respect Willow's contributions very much but I'm perplexed.
It's my understanding voting for May's withdrawal agreement hands May and her government the vehicle continuing their rule without effective restraint.
Am I misunderstanding the situation?
HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ingham-zoo
Police pick up penguins stolen from Nottingham zoo
(cJA edit)Willow904 wrote:---
It's only bad in the sense that leaving the EU is bad. Using the lies of our ideological enemies because they are politically expedient is an extremely dangerous game to play and I can't help but fear it is not going to end well.
(cJA edit)Willow904 wrote:May and her government are going to continue to be in power whether the withdrawal agreement is passed or not.citizenJA wrote:I respect Willow's contributions very much but I'm perplexed.
It's my understanding voting for May's withdrawal agreement hands May and her government the vehicle continuing their rule without effective restraint.
Am I misunderstanding the situation?
---
Or vice versa.citizenJA wrote:(cJA edit)Willow904 wrote:May and her government are going to continue to be in power whether the withdrawal agreement is passed or not.citizenJA wrote:I respect Willow's contributions very much but I'm perplexed.
It's my understanding voting for May's withdrawal agreement hands May and her government the vehicle continuing their rule without effective restraint.
Am I misunderstanding the situation?
---
I'm unsure
A bluff to scare a few more Tory MPs on board?AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well.......Stephen Bush has put the proverbial cat amongst pigeons by suggesting Feb 28 as a possible GE date
There's always a downside to anythingHindleA wrote:74,Labour government,Leeds win League..
I'm not sure I really buy this being an OK deal. I see what you mean in a kind of legal, technical sense, but a good deal in any context needs a degree of trust and goodwill around it that is almost entirely absent here. Brussels doesn't trust the UK to deliver and vice versa. And, even worse, the potential "signatories" in the UK don't trust each other. And that's because May hasn't listened to other parties through the process and incorporated their suggestions. I believe it would have been a better deal, in all senses, if she had. And it still could be.Willow904 wrote:I don't disagree that voting with the government would be damaging to Labour, it's rarely a good policy for an opposition and I completely understand their reluctance. This isn't a normal situation though. In opposing May, Labour is siding with the extreme far right of the Tory party against the more moderate centre. Particularly worrying is Labour echoing the far right's misrepresentation that the deal is a "bad deal". It's an ok deal, the sort of deal any government would have ended up negotiating. It's only bad in the sense that leaving the EU is bad. Using the lies of our ideological enemies because they are politically expedient is an extremely dangerous game to play and I can't help but fear it is not going to end well.AnatolyKasparov wrote:The current Labour "strategy" is making sure that the Tories "own" Brexit and the consequences of it. That has been consistent for the past 2 and a half years.
(the only possible exception to this was most Labour MPs voting for A50 - but there were reasons for that, and it is a mistake to think Corbyn imposed it on an unwilling PLP)
But that's what I mean, Labour are opposed to May, not the deal. The probem, though, is it's not just May's deal, it's also the EU's deal and rejecting it will only diminish any good will towards the UK when a WA very much like this one was always going to be part of the article 50 process a majority in parliament voted for.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm not sure I really buy this being an OK deal. I see what you mean in a kind of legal, technical sense, but a good deal in any context needs a degree of trust and goodwill around it that is almost entirely absent here. Brussels doesn't trust the UK to deliver and vice versa. And, even worse, the potential "signatories" in the UK don't trust each other. And that's because May hasn't listened to other parties through the process and incorporated their suggestions. I believe it would have been a better deal, in all senses, if she had. And it still could be.Willow904 wrote:I don't disagree that voting with the government would be damaging to Labour, it's rarely a good policy for an opposition and I completely understand their reluctance. This isn't a normal situation though. In opposing May, Labour is siding with the extreme far right of the Tory party against the more moderate centre. Particularly worrying is Labour echoing the far right's misrepresentation that the deal is a "bad deal". It's an ok deal, the sort of deal any government would have ended up negotiating. It's only bad in the sense that leaving the EU is bad. Using the lies of our ideological enemies because they are politically expedient is an extremely dangerous game to play and I can't help but fear it is not going to end well.AnatolyKasparov wrote:The current Labour "strategy" is making sure that the Tories "own" Brexit and the consequences of it. That has been consistent for the past 2 and a half years.
(the only possible exception to this was most Labour MPs voting for A50 - but there were reasons for that, and it is a mistake to think Corbyn imposed it on an unwilling PLP)
I read something the other day that made me wonder about his commitment. He's asked May to take 'no deal' off the table and it's in her power to revoke A50, or to commit to doing so at the last minute if necessary. The comment I saw was the usual anti-JC stuff suggesting he was for hard brexit and therefore stupid for asking her to do something he didn't actually want.Willow904 wrote:Corbyn doesn't support this, he is committed to delivering on the referendum.
So does their own Brexit policy.refitman wrote:Aren't Labour explicitly opposed to the deal, as it breaks the 6 rules?
(cJA bold)gilsey wrote:I read something the other day that made me wonder about his commitment. He's asked May to take 'no deal' off the table and it's in her power to revoke A50, or to commit to doing so at the last minute if necessary. The comment I saw was the usual anti-JC stuff suggesting he was for hard brexit and therefore stupid for asking her to do something he didn't actually want.Willow904 wrote:Corbyn doesn't support this, he is committed to delivering on the referendum.
I've never bought the JC-as-hard-brexiter line so it made me think about the alternative implications. He certainly might be bluffing as there's next to no chance May will rule out no deal, but how unhappy would he really be if, in the end, A50 was revoked? By the tory govt?
As for an impending GE, apparently No10 ruled it out this am so there you go.
PBol @pamelakrb
· 10h
Being an audience member at #bbcquestiontime I was absolutely disgusted about the ratio of leavers to remainers there and felt in a huge minority 1/n
PBol @pamelakrb
Fiona Bruce basically made fun of Dianne Abott in the briefing before it aired and proceeded to do the same during the show, how is this presenter impartiality? 2/n
Alison Martin @AlisonRMartin
I was in the audience of Question Time tonight - didn't feel like a balanced audience, though the Leavers were loud. The jeers against Diane Abbott were worse than could be heard on the broadcast; was some humour at Diane's expense from BBC staff before the recording.
3,830
12:55 AM - Jan 18, 2019
No I don't agree with this. The EU have said that this is the only deal available with this set of red lines. They've made it abundantly clear that with a new scenario a new deal is possible.Willow904 wrote:But that's what I mean, Labour are opposed to May, not the deal. The probem, though, is it's not just May's deal, it's also the EU's deal and rejecting it will only diminish any good will towards the UK when a WA very much like this one was always going to be part of the article 50 process a majority in parliament voted for.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm not sure I really buy this being an OK deal. I see what you mean in a kind of legal, technical sense, but a good deal in any context needs a degree of trust and goodwill around it that is almost entirely absent here. Brussels doesn't trust the UK to deliver and vice versa. And, even worse, the potential "signatories" in the UK don't trust each other. And that's because May hasn't listened to other parties through the process and incorporated their suggestions. I believe it would have been a better deal, in all senses, if she had. And it still could be.Willow904 wrote: I don't disagree that voting with the government would be damaging to Labour, it's rarely a good policy for an opposition and I completely understand their reluctance. This isn't a normal situation though. In opposing May, Labour is siding with the extreme far right of the Tory party against the more moderate centre. Particularly worrying is Labour echoing the far right's misrepresentation that the deal is a "bad deal". It's an ok deal, the sort of deal any government would have ended up negotiating. It's only bad in the sense that leaving the EU is bad. Using the lies of our ideological enemies because they are politically expedient is an extremely dangerous game to play and I can't help but fear it is not going to end well.
You are right that a new WA would look rather like the old one. But if the red lines shift enough, there will be no need for a backstop and one of the big problems will fall away.Guy Verhofstadt
@guyverhofstadt
It is not up to me, as a humble Belgian, to lecture Brits on what to do, but I think it’s time the national interest overtakes narrow party politics & cross party politics redefines the red lines imposed by hardliners in the Conservative party. We are ready for this. #Brexit
I don't know about anyone else but it would be nice if he could check and say with some certainty whether this is the case or not.Liam Fox says that staying in a permanent customs arrangement with the EU would "not be delivering Brexit".
The international trade secretary said he did not believe the UK could have an independent trade policy if it stayed in a customs union.