Friday 25th January 2019

Post by **refitman** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 7:05 am

Morning all.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 7:29 am

Confused Delhi alien launches national austerity tour (5,5).

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 7:31 am

Thanks for the QT review SkysGoneOut

I watched the first few minutes.

While I accept the QT audience is not representative of the real world, does it not make you worry about the probable outcome of a Peoples Vote?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 7:44 am

A further referendum would have to be between explicit choices instead of between the status quo and fantasy. If you ask if people want to leave the EU with May's deal, shaped by the realities of the GFA or stay in the EU, I couldn't predict what people would choose, but in some ways it wouldn't matter because at least they'll be choosing between two things that are actually feasible in the real world. The problem I see with a further referendum is there is no guarantee of getting a sensible question with only feasible, sensible answers as options while the Tories are in charge.

Post by **adam** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 8:15 am

On the list of possible ways forward from here - from yesterday - I don't dispute at all that passing something into law is more complicated than the commons voting for it, but at the same time it really should be said that if the government ignores a commons vote about something so completely central and significant as this, and especially if it ignores a decisive commons vote, then that really is an issue, and saying 'parliamentary procedure' doesn't answer it.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 10:21 am

Good morfternoon.

Sky TV news reports that, at Davos, Liam Fox's credibility is "incredibly low".

Post by **adam** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 10:33 am

I thought this was quite interesting from Hammond - it's not what he says, but what he doesn't say...

Addressing a Confederation of British Industry (CBI) lunch in Davos, Switzerland, on Thursday, Hammond said companies had to accept that changes were coming – such as an end to the free movement of people and business models built on a supply of cheap labour.

... and an end to the free movement of goods, and of capital, and of services. Obviously. This must have slipped his mind.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 12:41 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... es-aged-84" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 12:53 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Thanks for the QT review SkysGoneOut

I watched the first few minutes.

While I accept the QT audience is not representative of the real world, does it not make you worry about the probable outcome of a Peoples Vote?

Yes your final point is highly valid - but it has to be said that Winchester voted almost 60% to remain and that audience was suspiciously packed with Brexit hardliners.

Questions have been asked about the "outsourced" company that produces QT for a while now.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 12:56 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... wn-cardiff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 12:58 pm

Good-afternoon, everyone

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 1:03 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... wn-cardiff

Her attempts to subsequently backpedal are almost as pitiful tbh.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 1:34 pm

The name Mark Francois trending on that Twitter is never a sign that all's right with the world...and thus it proves to be another embarrassing piece of "Stick it up Johnny Foreigner!"

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citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 3:13 pm

The BBC reports there has been a surge in the number of medicines that are in short supply. Pharmacists are experiencing difficulties obtaining more than 80 drugs, and the situation is expected to become more critical as the uncertainty over Brexit increases.

---...the first thing I did was to check through the list to see if any of the drugs I take on a daily basis for my depression are on it. Sure enough, one was. Which presents me with something of a dilemma. Should I immediately rush off to my shrink for another prescription so that I can create my own private stockpile? Or should I take my chances and wait for my current supplies to run out? Obviously the ethical thing to do is to hope for the best.
---
...I know from first-hand experience that going cold turkey from this one particular drug is extremely unpleasant, as the first time I tried to come off it I had hideous side-effects. Something I am in no hurry to repeat.

- John Crace

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... themselves" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 3:16 pm

I'm going to read books and have an early night, all.
Love,
cJA

P.S. Thank you, Sky, for your write-up last night. I can't watch it and appreciate your reports.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 4:09 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Thanks for the QT review SkysGoneOut

I watched the first few minutes.

While I accept the QT audience is not representative of the real world, does it not make you worry about the probable outcome of a Peoples Vote?

As long as the tv/radio news keeps featuring Mogg/Davis/Johnson/Bone et al as if they have some superior knowledge to share, only a fool wouldn't be worried.

You didn't mean worry about leavers rioting if they lose, did you?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 4:43 pm

gilsey wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Thanks for the QT review SkysGoneOut

I watched the first few minutes.

While I accept the QT audience is not representative of the real world, does it not make you worry about the probable outcome of a Peoples Vote?
As long as the tv/radio news keeps featuring Mogg/Davis/Johnson/Bone et al as if they have some superior knowledge to share, only a fool wouldn't be worried.

You didn't mean worry about leavers rioting if they lose, did you?

I think another referendum would force further division on an already divided nation. So, I worry regardless of the outcome.

I think QT gives us an insight into how the media might drum up support for WTO Brexit. As people say it's now gung ho let's leave regardless of the damage.

I'm by nature a consensus seeker. That doesn't mean I'm right.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 4:47 pm

BTW a year or so ago I thought that a consensus view might keep us in the EU. IMHO failure to look for that consensus then means the thing has slid much further out of control and now the best we can hope for is soft Brexit.

And I am nearly as angry with the ardent extreme FBPE types (e.g. AC Grayling) as I am with the Brexiteers.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:10 pm

https://www.parliament.uk/business/comm ... ion-17-19/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DWP not engaging with expert calls for change to Universal Credit

The Work and Pensions Committee is today launching a new inquiry into what the Government calls “natural migration”: the process by which people claiming existing benefits move onto Universal Credit if they have a change in their circumstances.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:11 pm

"change of circumstances"

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:11 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:does it not make you worry about the probable outcome of a Peoples Vote?

Here's a very comprehensive look at why we should all be worried with or without one.

https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/cr ... -anything/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ultimately, if Parliament doesn’t want No Deal and doesn’t want to prevent Brexit entirely, it may yet end up coalescing around a version of the deal.

My own feeling for a while now is that MPs will vote for May's deal in the end, possibly with some minor tweaks.

It tells you something about this shitshow that the worst thing about that, for me, won't be leaving the EU but the thought of this crap going on and on while we negotiate the future relationship.

Remain is the only way to make it stop.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:16 pm

You think?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:26 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:BTW a year or so ago I thought that a consensus view might keep us in the EU. IMHO failure to look for that consensus then means the thing has slid much further out of control and now the best we can hope for is soft Brexit.

And I am nearly as angry with the ardent extreme FBPE types (e.g. AC Grayling) as I am with the Brexiteers.

You could add to that the PV campaigners taking futile, alienating pot-shots at Corbyn and peddling mendacious push polls.

Rather than trying to win over the only people who can actually make another referendum happen - MPs (and especially those on the government benches)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:27 pm

https://welfareweekly.com/grandfather-f ... his-death/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:30 pm

gilsey wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:does it not make you worry about the probable outcome of a Peoples Vote?
Here's a very comprehensive look at why we should all be worried with or without one.

https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/cr ... -anything/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ultimately, if Parliament doesn’t want No Deal and doesn’t want to prevent Brexit entirely, it may yet end up coalescing around a version of the deal.
My own feeling for a while now is that MPs will vote for May's deal in the end, possibly with some minor tweaks.

It tells you something about this shitshow that the worst thing about that, for me, won't be leaving the EU but the thought of this crap going on and on while we negotiate the future relationship.

Remain is the only way to make it stop.

May wants you to believe this.

Other options are surely available.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:32 pm

HindleA wrote:https://welfareweekly.com/grandfather-f ... his-death/

I do look at many of your links A.

Never know what to say really.

Thanks for posting them.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:32 pm

Dellingpole got a right doing over last night.

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HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:32 pm

https://www.z2k.org/about-us/latest/a-c ... disbelief/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A Culture of Disbelief

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:38 pm

Bronte burrs tumbling tonight (6,5). Hint: off topic

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:41 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote: May wants you to believe this.

What, that the worst thing would be the ongoing shitshow?

She wants MPs to believe it. I'm saying that imo they will, in the end. Read that article if you've time.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:42 pm

refitman wrote:Dellingpole got a right doing over last night.

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Not something I say often but well done Andrew Neill!

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:43 pm

The alternative option, as in this thread, doesn't stop the shitshow.

David Henig
‏

@DavidHenigUK
8h8 hours ago
More
EU: You haven't asked your Parliament if they would prefer the Labour Party's proposal to no-deal. We think they would
UK: That crosses our red lines
EU: Tough, go back to your Parliament again, we can't move because of ours

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gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 5:49 pm

HindleA wrote:You think?

It* certainly won't stop us fighting amongst ourselves but it should stop us bringing the neighbours into it.

The EU is 85% about trade and Ireland, Belgium and the Netherlands being able to breathe a sigh of relief and carry on trading with us as before is not to be dismissed lightly.

* remain

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 6:04 pm

gilsey wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: May wants you to believe this.

What, that the worst thing would be the ongoing shitshow?

She wants MPs to believe it. I'm saying that imo they will, in the end. Read that article if you've time.

I read it.

I agree Parliament may end up voting for the Withdrawal Agreement. But that's not the Deal. The political declaration needs to change doesn't it?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 6:07 pm

@PfY when politicos eg. IDS proclaim your life worthless resulting enaction inevitability goes down the self fulfillment route.Among the many evil (IMHO)aspects I think the targeting of
those that obviously tend to have a shorter a
and harder life ,is probably the worst.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 6:11 pm

This is the Irish preps for No Deal Brexit

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/eu/brexit/ ... isions.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

95 pages of it!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 6:48 pm

refitman wrote:Dellingpole got a right doing over last night.

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A genuinely terrible man.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 6:58 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Bronte burrs tumbling tonight (6,5). Hint: off topic

You've made me feel very hungry.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 7:11 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
gilsey wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote: May wants you to believe this.

What, that the worst thing would be the ongoing shitshow?

She wants MPs to believe it. I'm saying that imo they will, in the end. Read that article if you've time.
I read it.

I agree Parliament may end up voting for the Withdrawal Agreement. But that's not the Deal. The political declaration needs to change doesn't it?

If the withdrawal act passed in the summer hadn't legislated the need for the future declaration to be passed by parliament at the same time as the WA, would that stumbling block even be there? Its a separate document to the WA. If the stipulation in the withdrawal act wasn't there, wouldn't parliament approval of just the WA be enough for the EU to proceed with ratification under article 50 terms?

I'm sure I read as much somewhere, but of course can't find it now or whether it was part of the original government proposals or passed as an amendment, but given the basis of future negotiations rather than the WA is the main objection of many opposed to May's deal, why they have to be approved in unison is an interesting question.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 7:18 pm

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/th ... e.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 7:33 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
refitman wrote:Dellingpole got a right doing over last night.

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Not something I say often but well done Andrew Neill!

The "revision" of Delingpole's entry on Wikipedia has been doing the rounds on Twitter

(sadly, the spoilsports there have now reverted it)

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 7:52 pm

The political declaration's not binding from the EU's POV, does our parliament voting for it make it so?

Even if a majority of MPs coalesced around a particular form of the future relationship and wanted the govt to commit to it as the price of voting through the WA, thereby avoiding no deal and moving us into the transition period, wouldn't they need to find another way of making that commitment binding?

Surely the more likely outcome is that the vagueness of the PD is the strength of May's deal, MPs will blink, sign off the WA and tacitly agree to take the argument about the future relationship into the transition period. Ongoing shitshow, but no no-deal.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 7:57 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... 30-minutes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 8:12 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 8:12 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 8:13 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 8:13 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 8:13 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 8:14 pm

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 25 Jan, 2019 8:14 pm

Can

PTO