Saturday 2nd & Sunday 3rd March 2019

Post by **refitman** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 6:46 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 8:00 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... etherlands" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bike country No 1': Dutch go electric in record numbers

'There are consequences. We have fewer traffic deaths but an increase in severe injuries '

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 8:53 am

Morning all.

Off up to that London for a day in the library so I shall wish you all good day and depart stage left...

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 10:39 am

@Refitman

I tried to listen to the video you posted but I couldn't get past the bit where he says "women aren't the only people who menstruate".

I know the comparisons with black and gay rights are ones that a lot of people on the left identify with and they see trans rights as fundamentally the same but I just can't. Being black or gay is a completely natural thing. Homosexuals have been with us since the dawn of human history. Hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery are not natural and it is this introduction of manmade interventions that causes the difficulties of male looking people needing to use women's toilets because they are still menstruating and need to use the sanitary bins. We do need solutions to these problems. Perhaps toilets need to become more unisex and less communal. Whatever the solution, saying transwomen are women and transmen are men is not the answer because they are not.

If being a "woman" is no longer simply having two XX chromosomes, but becomes being womanly-like, if being a woman is based on a having a certain type of personality and wearing the clothes considered to be that of a woman, then being a woman becomes constrained by contemporary stereotypes of what a woman should be. And that's where trans rights, as currently being presented (and I think they could be presented and argued in very different ways) are clashing with the women's movement which has spent decades trying to cast off the stereotype of what a woman is. Women have been trying to reduce what a woman is to its biological and reproductive facts precisely because it frees us to be however we want to be.

Which brings me back to the TERF thing. Women trying to explain this from the female perspective are being dismissed as "hysterical" or, if they are respected feminist academics, are being smeared as TERFs. From a female point of view, women's voices are being suppressed by some transactivists using the same methods that some men use against women who try to raise issues of sexual harrassment. Women are either accused of being "hysterical" making a fuss over nothing or they are attacked and smeared to discredit their message (think Rose McGowan). This is why some women are uncomfortable with the way transactivusm is developing.

Women aren't raising these issues to stop the progress of trans rights. Some trans people also think the tactics being used by some transactivists are actually harmful to their cause as it creates negative feelings between women and the transgender community and no one wants that. If gender is to become more fluid we may have to reconsider communal same sex facilities and replace them with non-communal unisex ones, because everyone should have the right to feel safe and comfortable.

Anyway, I'll leave it there. I know not everyone will be persuaded by my arguments, but I hope I've at least made the case for further debate.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:09 am

Grayling still hanging on, then?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:18 am

So, Tom Watson, then

I don't really know what to say, tbh. What an absolute dick. I think Jennie Formby is handling things pretty well. She was a good choice, I think.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... n-14075037" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jennie Formby issues stinging slapdown to Tom Watson over anti-Semitism complaints

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:23 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Grayling still hanging on, then?

There appears to be no incompetence great enough to embarrass this government. Quite staggering.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:23 am

As an escort did I accompany better half who needed assistance in the women's or men's when thus separated?Not beyond the wit to adapt to societal changes I would say.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:26 am

(Answer avoid/plan not to have that choice to make)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:27 am

Swimming bath changing rooms another one.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:36 am

Or indeed as a worker.I've spent inordinate time around toilets.Completely innocent and essential only the bad minded would think otherwise.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:40 am

Suffice to say even male worker in dominant female occupation,especially nature attracted a fair amount of suspicion.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:41 am

And interrogation.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:42 am

Willow904 wrote:So, Tom Watson, then

I don't really know what to say, tbh. What an absolute dick. I think Jennie Formby is handling things pretty well. She was a good choice, I think.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... n-14075037" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jennie Formby issues stinging slapdown to Tom Watson over anti-Semitism complaints

Needless to say, he has been cheered on by our moronic media - who have conveniently airbrushed away all their previous grievances with him.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 11:56 am

HindleA wrote:Swimming bath changing rooms another one.

What do dads do when they take their young daughters swimming? The cultural norm is you take children into women's facilities and everyone seems comfortable with that, but young girls in male changing rooms seems wrong and a man taking their daughter into women's changing rooms also seems wrong. Our rules around sex-based facilities have never been based in law but evolved from a collective sense of what is appropriate. Such cultural norms can't just be changed on demand, yet trans rights are leading to such changes being made in the name of trans rights against the flow of cultural acceptance. So girls are being asked to accept biological males in their toilets at school. This makes the girls uncomfortable but their discomfort is based on cultural norms so can be ignored whereas the trans person is claiming a legal right to assert their preference over other's preference by being able to legally identify themselves as "female" in a gender sense, even though toilet usage is traditionally based on biological sex. Trans rights are far from simple as a result.

And I still don't know what dads do when they take their daughters swimming. When they're babies, no problem and when they're older they can change on their own, but in between must surely be a bit tricky.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 12:06 pm

No facilities used to exist at all for large sections of Society and situations was my point,all I am saying is adaption is possible.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 12:16 pm

In far more spheres,my instinct is inclusion and to question concerns given they still retain as the video outlined as a means of underlining bigotry/people being uncomfortable/suspicious with "difference".Not saying you clarification.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 12:21 pm

Eg I don't exclude Tories using my downstairs toilet but I charge a fee.I think that a reasonable adaption.

(Joke-or is it?)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 12:25 pm

Realise off on a tangent but some crossover if only as a way of shoehorning my particular obsessions.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 12:31 pm

HindleA wrote:No facilities used to exist at all for large sections of Society and situations was my point,all I am saying is adaption is possible.

Yes, absolutely, I completely agree. My point is the difficulties facing trans people aren't exceptional and they aren't necessarily legal. I'm trying to understand why its necessary for transgender women to be recognised literally as women in a legal sense for these cultural adaptions to be made. Disabled people have a right to be able to access a suitable toilet (and we're a long way from that I know) and likewise transgender people have a right to be able to access a suitable toilet. Everyone agrees that. But if a transgender child is offered a staff toilet at school, does this not fulfil their toilet rights? Some would say it's segregation but isn't the disabled toilet also segregation? And is the aim in segregation to denigrate or is it just to make sure everyone is considered and everyone gets to use a suitable toilet, because some might say a communal toilet with male access isn't suitable for girls.
Ultimately, we may need to move away from communal facilities but transactivists aren't asking for that or separate facilities like for the disabled, they are demanding access to communal facilities of those of a different biological sex, based on their gender preference. Are women really transphobic to query that?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 1:08 pm

HindleA wrote:As an escort did I accompany better half who needed assistance in the women's or men's when thus separated?Not beyond the wit to adapt to societal changes I would say.

Or, as a Councillor in this neck of the woods once famously said at a meeting, "I will personally be looking into public conveniences."

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 1:10 pm

Good morfternoon.

There seems to be no nailing Failing Grayling.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 1:30 pm

As a means of inclusion,especially when non existent isn't segregation but is on a purely binary basis,hence mention of possible/questionable exclusion due to male/female positioning,hardly insurmountable with applying thought.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 1:34 pm

Danger of "special preference" intimations when equalising.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 1:37 pm

And I am afraid experience showed far from everybody agrees in this fundamental right in this and many other areas.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 1:38 pm

PorFavor wrote:
HindleA wrote:As an escort did I accompany better half who needed assistance in the women's or men's when thus separated?Not beyond the wit to adapt to societal changes I would say.

Or, as a Councillor in this neck of the woods once famously said at a meeting, "I will personally be looking into public conveniences."

If someone says "may I come in" and people say yes that's acceptance and that's what transgender people are naturally seeking. It's not a legal right, though. I guess what I don't understand is what are the biological sex-based rights that transgender people need self-ID for which are different from the general right all people have to not be discriminated against. It's obviously not the right to 3 yearly smear tests or prostate screening, so what are tbgese rights exactly? Understanding that might help to persuade me to self-ID.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:04 pm

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A reminder perhaps,along with targeted pensioners that the Tory misanthropy doesn't conform to the usual oft repeated easy fit distinctions in application ie.their arseholery is far more widespread.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:14 pm

I dislike the hard times description ,a minimal reciprocal return subject to a particular situation,for one thing if proper accounting of extra costs existed no means tested accounting would have been necessary,we couldn't move to a non existent property,saving the State countless in that it provided a place for otherwise NHS/hospital based provision and facilitated independence at the same time.We didn't strictly need it but in effect ,counter to the philosophy and purpose DLA would have gone on housing costs.If you want people to take control,take personal responsibilty for their health and related you don't fucking penalise them for doing so.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:21 pm

It was already time limited for those that could do anything about it.Beyond the wit is that terminal means terminal and doesn't conform to convenient temporality.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:25 pm

Atrocious Societal signal that the selfish pursuit of work/career overrides all no matter what the cost.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:29 pm

Though a no win stick to beat with the where is the family as the effect,not least exponential State cost consequences in pursuit of the doing the right thing whilst simultaneously the wrong,they cover every angle

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:32 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... ssion=true

A reminder perhaps,along with targeted pensioners that the Tory misanthropy doesn't conform to the usual oft repeated easy fit distinctions in application ie.their arseholery is far more widespread.

It's all part of the financialization of a basic human right - shelter - the pursuit of which has so staggeringly screwed up our whole economy and society. A house is not an asset when someone needs it to live in. If we stuck to this concept, houses wouldn't be hoarding so much of the wealth of this nation, more money would be circulating within the economy and thus enabling more people to live comfortably on what we already have.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:36 pm

There were no "products",available which is in part their intent,not within a bargepole,the State neglecting/reframing to so facillitate is disingenuous deceptive(though clear via related utterations and scrutiny) tosh

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:39 pm

Has Jon Lansman said or done something?

There seem to be quite a few Momentum types on twitter upset with him for some reason.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:44 pm

Not particularly into or falling into divisive comparability,shall we say that making absolutely no distinction between the fully fit mobile and those in adapted homes,not expected to work who would breach agreements,carrying out otherwise NHS hospital based,non existent suitable properties to move to from suitable ones etc in application doesn't come across as fair.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:49 pm

"only a few"

Which my response is why f'ing do it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:53 pm

Willsman "exchanges"?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:56 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... led-choose" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Elderly and disabled left rationing their care as local authorities hike charges

(The context)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:57 pm

But,but but you have extra costs allowances.....

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 3:58 pm

An endless pot

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 4:00 pm

Always the danger from introduction to be used as cover as in already accounted for deception,never before used to this extent.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 4:17 pm

Top Corbynistas at war over anti-Semitism crisis: Party chief threatens to 'do in' fellow key activist as senior allies of Labour leader exchange insults over the issue

Momentum's Jon Lansman claimed Labour NEC member Pete Willsman threatened to 'do him in' in anti-Semitism feud
Willsman close to suspended MP Chris Williamson, who was suspended for saying Labour 'too apologetic' over anti-Semitism
Mr Lansman branded Willsman a 'hateful, embarrassing dictator and crank' in leaked emails

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -ally.html

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 4:49 pm

HindleA wrote:Always the danger from introduction to be used as cover as in already accounted for deception,never before used to this extent.

Nothing has been as bad before in terms of deception, I think. Last lot of Tories were more openly, and therefore accountably, mean.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 4:49 pm

Though I don't think you can get more open that the amount of money Grayling has pissed down the toilet.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 4:52 pm

Or the way Northamptonshire County Council followed Tory dogma to the letter and went bankrupt.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 4:53 pm

Re SMI also "death tax"hypocrisy

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 4:58 pm

Also beyond the wit seemingly that "worked all their lives" until not expected to conveniently falls according to age delineation.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 4:59 pm

Especially when you change it.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 5:02 pm

Laughingly stupid phrase,I started factory work on my first day but I suspect not all did/do.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 02 Mar, 2019 5:07 pm

I basically laid in a hard hat to begin with,but we've all got to start somewhere.

Please

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