Wednesday 13th March 2019

Post by **refitman** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 7:02 am

Morning all.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 7:43 am

Morning.

I'm going to offer my Brexit compromise solution once more

Adopt Labour-style customs union solution as interim arrangement for, say, 4 years. To be followed by a Single Transferable Vote "Peoples Vote" with three options:
1. Apply to rejoin
2. Stay with interim customs union
3. Hard Brexit if backstop has been resolved

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 8:39 am

Good-morning, everyone

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 9:05 am

Recyclable begonia recycled for Brexit consensus on Today (7,4-6).

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 9:09 am

Morning all. Usual Wednesday so I'll just leave this here and exit stage left..

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Worth reading from a former Vote Leave staffer.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 9:28 am

By the way here's the Motion

'This House declines to approve leaving EU without a WA & a framework on the future relationship on 29 March;

'And notes that leaving without a deal remains default in UK and EU law unless this House and EU ratify an agreement'

Well done to Yvette Cooper for doing her stuff and unpicking this for the fraud it is.

Not well done (IMHO) to Owen Smith and others who are moaning that Labour are not proposing a Peoples Vote.

In what way would campaigning for a Peoples Vote today help?

*Sorry for rant

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 9:33 am

...the Prime Minister rejected repeated attempts by Labour to resolve this issue before Article 50 was triggered. As a result three million EU nationals have suffered unnecessary uncertainty, as have the 1.2 million UK citizens living in the EU.

https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(cJA bold)
I'd forgotten this

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 9:56 am

Sixteen days left before May's Article 50 notification turns the UK's EU membership off
Pass legislation getting Article 50 back
Shouldn't have been sent by government without a plan

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 9:57 am

Good morfternoon.

Guy Verhofstadt, the leader of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe in the European parliament, and the parliament’s lead Brexit spokesman, is speaking now.

He starts by telling Henkel (see 9.45am) that Henkel needs to address his remarks to his Conservative party colleagues in the European Conservatives and Reformists group.

He says a long extension of article 50 would mean Nigel Farage staying on as an MEP. He would continue to get his salary, which he could pay into his offshore company, and he would continue to be able to do his “dirty work” in the EU. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 9:59 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:By the way here's the Motion
'This House declines to approve leaving EU without a WA & a framework on the future relationship on 29 March;

'And notes that leaving without a deal remains default in UK and EU law unless this House and EU ratify an agreement'
Well done to Yvette Cooper for doing her stuff and unpicking this for the fraud it is.

Not well done (IMHO) to Owen Smith and others who are moaning that Labour are not proposing a Peoples Vote.

In what way would campaigning for a Peoples Vote today help?

*Sorry for rant

If a further referendum is to be held, a long enough extension to article 50 needs to be requested right now. There won't be a later opportunity to back a further referendum. If a short extension is requested and agreed, a further referendum is dead in the water.

I'm not especially supportive of another referendum myself, just pointing out why those who do support one are right to be disappointed by Corbyn's current reticence on the subject.

May's analysis of where things stand at this stage remains the most realistic. She isn't "running down the clock" she has run down the clock, job done. We're looking at her deal, no deal or no Brexit. There's one more chance tomorrow for parliament to demand a long extension - long enough to hold a GE, or a referendum or re-open negotiations. This will mean accepting taking part in the EU elections. I see no sign of that happening, but it is still possible. Just. Yvette Cooper has been championing this approach since January, but I've no clue if she has any hope of winning over a majority or not. Probably not.

Incidentally, if parliament is serious about taking "no deal" off the table, they can legislate for May to revoke article 50 if a deal isn't ratified one day before we are due to leave (whenever that may be). That they haven't done so suggests the majority against "no deal" is much softer than many people realise. It's all very well being against no deal in theory, but in practice it will mean supporting something that can be equally politically unpalatable.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 10:03 am

And Guy Verhofstadt goes on to say -

What we need is now certainty from the House of Commons ... And so I am against every extension, whether an extension of one day, one week, even 24 hours, if it is not based on a clear opinion of the House of Commons for something, that we know what they want. (Politics Live, Guardian)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 10:06 am

Willow904 wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:By the way here's the Motion
'This House declines to approve leaving EU without a WA & a framework on the future relationship on 29 March;

'And notes that leaving without a deal remains default in UK and EU law unless this House and EU ratify an agreement'
Well done to Yvette Cooper for doing her stuff and unpicking this for the fraud it is.

Not well done (IMHO) to Owen Smith and others who are moaning that Labour are not proposing a Peoples Vote.

In what way would campaigning for a Peoples Vote today help?

*Sorry for rant
If a further referendum is to be held, a long enough extension to article 50 needs to be requested right now. There won't be a later opportunity to back a further referendum. If a short extension is requested and agreed, a further referendum is dead in the water.

I'm not especially supportive of another referendum myself, just pointing out why those who do support one are right to be disappointed by Corbyn's current reticence on the subject.

May's analysis of where things stand at this stage remains the most realistic. She isn't "running down the clock" she has run down the clock, job done. We're looking at her deal, no deal or no Brexit. There's one more chance tomorrow for parliament to demand a long extension - long enough to hold a GE, or a referendum or re-open negotiations. This will mean accepting taking part in the EU elections. I see no sign of that happening, but it is still possible. Just. Yvette Cooper has been championing this approach since January, but I've no clue if she has any hope of winning over a majority or not. Probably not.

Incidentally, if parliament is serious about taking "no deal" off the table, they can legislate for May to revoke article 50 if a deal isn't ratified one day before we are due to leave (whenever that may be). That they haven't done so suggests the majority against "no deal" is much softer than many people realise. It's all very well being against no deal in theory, but in practice it will mean supporting something that can be equally politically unpalatable.

Yes I agree.

Which is why focusing on the No Deal motion today seems to me to be the right thing to do.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 10:20 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:By the way here's the Motion
'This House declines to approve leaving EU without a WA & a framework on the future relationship on 29 March;

'And notes that leaving without a deal remains default in UK and EU law unless this House and EU ratify an agreement'
Well done to Yvette Cooper for doing her stuff and unpicking this for the fraud it is.

Not well done (IMHO) to Owen Smith and others who are moaning that Labour are not proposing a Peoples Vote.

In what way would campaigning for a Peoples Vote today help?

*Sorry for rant

Whilst not keen on campaigning for a second vote (so I'm with you there), I still think that, if Jeremy Corbyn is serious about one later along the line, he should be sowing the seeds to gain support for a reformed EU - if that is, indeed, what he wants. Otherwise he loses all credibility on the subject. He doesn't need to overtly campaign for second referendum.

I think I said this (more or less) yesterday.

Edited - tidy up. Ish.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 10:23 am

Willow904 wrote: Incidentally, if parliament is serious about taking "no deal" off the table, they can legislate for May to revoke article 50 if a deal isn't ratified one day before we are due to leave (whenever that may be). That they haven't done so suggests the majority against "no deal" is much softer than many people realise. It's all very well being against no deal in theory, but in practice it will mean supporting something that can be equally politically unpalatable.

Equally politically unpalatable in the short-term, indeed.
MPs aren't giving enough weight to the fact that the very serious political repercussions of no deal will go on for years.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 10:27 am

Nick Gutteridge
‏

@nick_gutteridge
Follow Follow @nick_gutteridge
More Nick Gutteridge Retweeted Andrej Babiš
Czech PM reveals he told Theresa May in a phone call over the weekend to hold a second referendum and that the Government should campaign to stay in the EU. An extraordinary thing to make public today. Diplomatic norms complete going out the window in the Brexit pressure cooker.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 10:39 am

Jon Worth runs through the possible extension request scenarios.
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gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 10:58 am

Another possibility.

Bruno Waterfield
‏

@BrunoBrussels
Follow Follow @BrunoBrussels
More
The 23 May date is about pressure. One possibility is to set conditions, extend for 6 weeks with conditions that MPs must decide on revoke, referendum or soft Brexit to get a longer extension

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 10:59 am

Oh yes - the Chancellor's Spring Statement is today. I'd forgotten about that. That should cheer us all up.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 10:59 am

'I tell you there's been a mistake! Give me my goddamn [Article 50] back!'

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 11:13 am

James Cleverly has just said, in a TV interview, that Northern Ireland "is an island". Well, it's on an island - but, by itself, it isn't "an island".

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 11:41 am

Here’s our plan for an orderly no-deal Brexit, and delivered on time
- Owen Paterson

complete horseshit

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 11:59 am

Fundamentally decent and competent Labour party MPs every day taunted, ridiculed, continually mocked as 'unfit for leadership'
What chance at leadership does opposition to Tories and the people supporting that opposition have when they're treated contemptuously, scorn repeated daily over and over
Inaccurate and hateful antagonism towards opposition so blatantly exhibited isn't funny, there's nothing gently sorrowful about this state of affairs
It shouldn't be this way and it's not wrong demanding it stop
Jesus, just look at them, look at Tory leadership over the last damned nine years
Read Tory words, look at their actions, legislation, the people and nation they're supposed to representing and leading

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 12:07 pm

PorFavor wrote:James Cleverly has just said, in a TV interview, that Northern Ireland "is an island". Well, it's on an island - but, by itself, it isn't "an island".

I have made this quip before - but Mr Non-Nominative Determinism strikes again.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 12:12 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... eport-says" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The sub headline and narrative rather reveal the arse about thinking that leads to obvious consequences.. People living longer is a "crisis".Logic dictates recent slowing down should be welcomed.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 12:16 pm

But will the burdensomeness propagandists do the decent thing or does it only apply to others?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 12:17 pm

"One thing they worry about more than no deal is a Corbyn government."

- T May

She's projecting again
Her dysfunctional government is bad for business, people and nation

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 12:21 pm

No! Man is an Island.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 12:23 pm

Or, as the Welsh say, "No man is an island, Barry."

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 12:31 pm

citizenJA wrote:
"One thing they worry about more than no deal is a Corbyn government."

- T May
She's projecting again
Her dysfunctional government is bad for business, people and nation

Who is "they"?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 12:46 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
"One thing they worry about more than no deal is a Corbyn government."

- T May
She's projecting again
Her dysfunctional government is bad for business, people and nation
Who is "they"?

May says she wants a deal. Businesses want that too. One thing they worry about more than no deal is a Corbyn government.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 1:26 pm

Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
Last week @arron_banks & @andywigmore went to Veneto, the heartland of Italy's Lega Nord. Today, the plan is revealed. The fascists have agreed to help Britain exit without a deal. Salvini will block an extension of article 50. We're fucked.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If true, then we're looking at "no deal" or no Brexit. When is the last opportunity to revoke article 50, given the Withdrawal Act will need amending to prevent it automatically being implemented on the 29th?

Post by **adam** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 1:35 pm

Willow904 wrote:
Carole Cadwalladr
@carolecadwalla
Last week
@arron_banks
&
@andywigmore
went to Veneto, the heartland of Italy's Lega Nord. Today, the plan is revealed. The fascists have agreed to help Britain exit without a deal. Salvini will block an extension of article 50. We're fucked.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If true, then we're looking at "no deal" or no Brexit. When is the last opportunity to revoke article 50, given the Withdrawal Act will need amending to prevent it automatically being implemented on the 29th?

10pm GMT on the 29th? (Is it intended as a final kick in the teeth to the leave campaign that we leave at midnight central european time?)

I would be interested to see if people in the 'no to no deal' debate specifically talk about the fact that voting for this will involved revoking Article 50 as a last resort if no deal is done and no extension is granted.

(So as it's a government motion, what we need is confirmation from the government front bench that in the event of the motion being passed, and arriving at a situation by a specified date/time without a deal or an extension, the government will urgently and immediately bring forward legislation to revoke article 50.)

Post by **adam** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 1:50 pm

Also...

: Screen Shot 2019-03-13 at 13.49.17.png (60.79 KiB) Viewed 6825 times

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 2:02 pm

I'm getting a lot of squirrels today.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 2:07 pm

Labour Whips
✔
@labourwhips

The Government have confirmed that @michaelgove not @theresa_may will open the no-Deal debate. @LiamFox will close. For @UKLabour it will be @Keir_Starmer and @mtpennycook
40
1:40 PM - Mar 13, 2019 (Politics Live, Guardian)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 3:02 pm

I find John McDonnell at lot more easy to warm to (shorthand for all manner of things) than I do Jeremy Corbyn.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 3:03 pm

I'm going to wash my hair.
love,
cJA

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 3:13 pm

John Bercow has selected the Spelman and Malthouse Amendments for debate.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 3:15 pm

The amendments to be debated are:

No no-deal ever
Tabled by the West Midlands MPs Caroline Spelman and Jack Dromey and backed by senior figures from all sides of the Commons including Sir Oliver Letwin, Hilary Benn, Nick Boles and Yvette Cooper, as well as all 11 members of the Independent Group, this amendment simply rejects a no-deal Brexit at any time and under any circumstances.

Malthouse compromise
Tabled by a group of Conservative MPs drawn from both leave and remain wings of the party, this amendment calls for a delay to Brexit day from 29 March to 22 May to give time for preparations to leave without a deal. It says the government should then offer a “standstill” agreement with the EU and its member states, lasting up to the end of 2021 at the latest, during which the UK would pay into EU budgets and observe legal obligations while a permanent relationship is negotiated.

Three amendments not selected, including the Tinge one.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 3:16 pm

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 3:31 pm

I can't bear to listen to the oleaginous Gove. Over to you, PaulfromYorkshire.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 3:34 pm

PorFavor wrote:I find John McDonnell at lot more easy to warm to (shorthand for all manner of things) than I do Jeremy Corbyn.

Though I have heard the opposite - Corbyn is *on a personal level* much easier to get on with than McDonnell.

It could be one reason (there were others, yes) why JC got the nominations to stand for leader and JMcD didn't back in the day.

But it can plausibly be argued too, this is something that makes Corbyn less suited for the times we are currently going through.

An interesting one.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 3:41 pm

PorFavor wrote:I can't bear to listen to the oleaginous Gove. Over to you, PaulfromYorkshire.

Just watch this while you are listening.

[youtube]9yqQXAAgjzo[/youtube]

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 4:34 pm

"I refuse to vote for Labour until they do what I want even if they do.They will never win an election,I will ensure it"

Determined to prove yourself rightists,above all else.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 4:37 pm

Reading that May is asking Spelman not to press her amendment because she will whip against and there are ministers for.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 4:45 pm

Apparently she has pulled it

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 4:45 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Reading that May is asking Spelman not to press her amendment because she will whip against and there are ministers for.

Asing her like this?

[youtube]MGxjIBEZvx0[/youtube]

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 5:30 pm

Complete chaos in Parliament as Spelman is not allowed to withdraw the amendment. She may opt not to move it. But another signatory can.

Meanwhile the broadside attack on Labour for not campaigning for a People's Vote continues.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 5:42 pm

seems Cooper is trying to force May to offer indicative votes

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 13 Mar, 2019 6:07 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote: Meanwhile the broadside attack on Labour for not campaigning for a People's Vote continues.

'People's Vote' is more than a little problematic if the alternative to remain is an arrangement that's been proved to be unacceptable to Parliament. Who's going to implement the deal in the event of another vote to leave?
I think that's Labour's point although if it is, it could certainly be made more clearly.

Listened to Starmer and Ken Clarke for a bit earlier on, pleased to hear revoke being mentioned in the chamber.