Thursday 21st March 2019

Post by **refitman** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 7:03 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 8:06 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... rom-capita" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 8:08 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... s-billions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 8:19 am

Morning all.

Interesting to hear Barry Gardiner on Today stating that Corbyn had already had a 20 minute meeting with Theresa May last night before the walk-out.

Now, I don't think he should have done that as it gave ammo to his political opponents but amongst all the fuss about it last night, I don't think it was clear that he'd already heard her "Nope, not gonna budge" line.

Post by **adam** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 8:41 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Interesting to hear Barry Gardiner on Today stating that Corbyn had already had a 20 minute meeting with Theresa May last night before the walk-out.

Now, I don't think he should have done that as it gave ammo to his political opponents but amongst all the fuss about it last night, I don't think it was clear that he'd already heard her "Nope, not gonna budge" line.

Agree. He can be very good at pinning a 'kick me' sign to his own back but really, what on earth did she have to say that was worth listening to? She obviously wasn't listening to anything anybody else said.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 8:44 am

adam wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Interesting to hear Barry Gardiner on Today stating that Corbyn had already had a 20 minute meeting with Theresa May last night before the walk-out.

Now, I don't think he should have done that as it gave ammo to his political opponents but amongst all the fuss about it last night, I don't think it was clear that he'd already heard her "Nope, not gonna budge" line.
Agree. He can be very good at pinning a 'kick me' sign to his own back but really, what on earth did she have to say that was worth listening to? She obviously wasn't listening to anything anybody else said.

And Caroline Lucas said the same thing. She said he left mainly because it was a charade (not her words).

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 8:46 am

But yes he could perhaps have found a way to make the same point that didn't appear so petulant.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 9:13 am

I saw the fuss over this the other day - but this is simply utter drivel.

Andrew Pierce
‏

@toryboypierce
Follow Follow @toryboypierce
More
Headteacher who said school was so broke she had to do the cleaning gave herself £10,000 pay rise in same year to £130,000. wouldn't that have paid for a cleaner?

10:40 AM - 20 Mar 2019

All Governing Boards, no matter what other sub-committees they decide to have, must have a Pay Committee which has to (i) carry out the performance review of the HT and (ii) decide on his pay. HTs can't just decide what they get paid themselves!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 9:19 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Interesting to hear Barry Gardiner on Today stating that Corbyn had already had a 20 minute meeting with Theresa May last night before the walk-out.

Now, I don't think he should have done that as it gave ammo to his political opponents but amongst all the fuss about it last night, I don't think it was clear that he'd already heard her "Nope, not gonna budge" line.

Whatever failings Corbyn may have as an effective Labour leader at this crucial time in our nation's history capricious anger and flouncing out in a tizzy aren't characteristics I'd associate with the man. I'm not known for behaving in that way either, not usually. I could easy brawl at this juncture. I'd come out of it standing too. I'd have bailed two minutes into that quagmire avoiding a tangle with that mad Tory.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 9:20 am

Good-morning, everyone

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 9:28 am

History's disagreeables are nothing compared with T May.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 9:31 am

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... s-billions

I still get angry – and that is the word for it, angry – 10 years into the role, when I see badly-thought-through programmes and wasted public money,” says outgoing watchdog chief Sir Amyas Morse. “And the reason I’m angry is because the citizen ends up picking up the tab. They are the ones who end up suffering.”

For almost a decade, as comptroller and auditor general – the head of the National Audit Office – it’s been Morse’s statutory duty to keep an eagle eye on the spending of central government departments...

I've long admired Morse.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 9:36 am

Be slow to anger, check sources, maintain a little skepticism until more is known

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 9:53 am

Nearly three years have passed since the public voted to leave the European Union. It was the biggest democratic exercise in our country’s history. I came to office on a promise to deliver on that verdict. In March 2017, I triggered the Article 50 process for the UK to exit the EU – and Parliament supported it overwhelmingly. Two years on, MPs have been unable to agree on a way to implement the UK’s withdrawal. As a result, we will now not leave on time with a deal on 29 March. This delay is a matter of great personal regret for me.

And of this I am absolutely sure: you the public have had enough. You are tired of the infighting. You are tired of the political games and the arcane procedural rows. Tired of MPs talking about nothing else but Brexit when you have real concerns about our children’s schools, our National Health Service, and knife crime. You want this stage of the Brexit process to be over and done with. I agree. I am on your side.

It is now time for MPs to decide. So today I have written to Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council, to request a short extension of Article 50 up to the 30 June to give MPs the time to make a final choice. Do they want to leave the EU with a deal which delivers on the result of the referendum – that takes back control of our money, borders and laws while protecting jobs and our national security? Do they want to leave without a deal? Or do they not want to leave at all, causing potentially irreparable damage to public trust – not just in this generation of politicians, but to our entire democratic process?

It is high time we made a decision. So far, Parliament has done everything possible to avoid making a choice. Motion after motion and amendment after amendment have been tabled without Parliament ever deciding what it wants. All MPs have been willing to say is what they do not want.

I passionately hope MPs will find a way to back the deal I have negotiated with the EU. A deal that delivers on the result of the referendum and is the very best deal negotiable. I will continue to work night and day to secure the support of my colleagues, the DUP and others for this deal. But I am not prepared to delay Brexit any further than 30 June.

Some argue that I am making the wrong choice, and I should ask for a longer extension to the end of the year or beyond, to give more time for politicians to argue over the way forward. That would mean asking you to vote in European Elections, nearly three years after our country decided to leave. What kind of message would that send? And just how bitter and divisive would that election campaign be at a time when the country desperately needs bringing back together?

Some have suggested holding a second referendum. I don’t believe that is what you want – and it is not what I want. We asked you the question already and you gave us your answer. Now you want us to get on with it. And that is what I am determined to do.

- Theresa May
20 March 2019

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... march-2019" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

she's got some nerve deciding she knows what I want and feel

Post by **adam** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 9:56 am

@ CitizenJA - Are you going to Labour's local elections launch at Staffs Uni?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 10:05 am

Petition to revoke A50 now has over 650k signatures, getting on for half a million people have signed in the last 24 hours.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 10:06 am

https://petition.parliament.uk/petition ... OH2CBJ2yLc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.

I don't know what the record for a parliament petition is, but I've certainly never seen one grow as quickly as this before. There's a lot of talk in the media of the public having had enough of the Brexit hooha, but only in terms of "get on with it". This is more "give it up, you bunch of muppets".

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 10:10 am

adam wrote:@ CitizenJA - Are you going to Labour's local elections launch at Staffs Uni?

I'm unable to attend

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 11:07 am

Miss Otis Regrets . . .

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 11:21 am

The "Revoke" petition is growing by leaps and bounds - but I suspect that the site has, yet again, collapsed.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 11:32 am

MPs have been advised to share taxis when they leave Parliament over fears they could be attacked by angry voters over their handling of Brexit.

Deputy Commons Speaker Lindsay Hoyle said the Serjeant at Arms - who is in charge of security at Parliament - had arranged for black cabs to be on hand to collect them from the Commons.

He also revealed that police around the country had been put on alert over the threat MPs now face. (PoliticsHome, via Politics Live Guardian)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 11:53 am

Launch live on Facebook.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 12:06 pm

HindleA wrote:Launch live on Facebook.

?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 12:23 pm

PorFavor wrote:Miss Otis Regrets . . .

I adore Cole Porter

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 12:26 pm

Willow904 wrote:https://petition.parliament.uk/petition ... OH2CBJ2yLc
Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.
I don't know what the record for a parliament petition is, but I've certainly never seen one grow as quickly as this before. There's a lot of talk in the media of the public having had enough of the Brexit hooha, but only in terms of "get on with it". This is more "give it up, you bunch of muppets".

Its a variant of "s*** or get off the pot", but in the "other" direction.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 1:26 pm

May arrives at EU summit saying UK must 'deliver Brexit' for the people
On her way in she told reporters she would be requesting a short article 50 extension until the end of June.
---
Stefan Lofven, the Swedish prime minister, said a short article 50 extension would depend on MPs backing the Brexit deal as he arrived at the EU summit. He said:
"An extension would also depend upon the voting in the House of Commons because we believe it is very important that the House of Commons actually agrees upon the agreement that we have and then we can talk extension."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... 0f6c02326b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

May doesn't accept that. The House of Commons is getting in May's way.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 1:32 pm

Rory Carroll

Ireland’s Twitterverse is roasting Tory MEP Daniel Hannan for bungling Irish history in a Telegraph article and then refusing to admit his mistake.

In citing Ireland as an example of baleful EU influence, the Brexiteer wrote that Fianna Fáil won every Irish election between 1932 and 2008.

The party in fact lost six times. When challenged about this and other points this week Hannan doubled down in a tweet.

“I managed a Double First in Modern History from Oxford. One of the things I was taught is that historians necessarily have different takes on the same events. Please try to accept that yours is not the only interpretation.” (Politics Live, Guardian)

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 1:37 pm

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 1:44 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Rory Carroll

Ireland’s Twitterverse is roasting Tory MEP Daniel Hannan for bungling Irish history in a Telegraph article and then refusing to admit his mistake.

In citing Ireland as an example of baleful EU influence, the Brexiteer wrote that Fianna Fáil won every Irish election between 1932 and 2008.

The party in fact lost six times. When challenged about this and other points this week Hannan doubled down in a tweet.

“I managed a Double First in Modern History from Oxford. One of the things I was taught is that historians necessarily have different takes on the same events. Please try to accept that yours is not the only interpretation.” (Politics Live, Guardian)

I would agree if he was talking about why FF won or lost but the fact that they didn't win all of them?

Silly man. Been caught out so many times for lying and just refuses to admit it.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 1:47 pm

Not sure the Department of History at Oxford will be entirely happy their alumnus

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 1:51 pm

No such thing as a Double First in Modern History either, apparently.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 1:53 pm

https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... e.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 1:57 pm

Willow904 wrote:https://petition.parliament.uk/petition ... OH2CBJ2yLc
Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.
I don't know what the record for a parliament petition is, but I've certainly never seen one grow as quickly as this before. There's a lot of talk in the media of the public having had enough of the Brexit hooha, but only in terms of "get on with it". This is more "give it up, you bunch of muppets".

There was one a while ago that went quite viral, I've been trying to remember what it was, maybe badgers. Feeling nostalgic for more innocent times.

This one's much faster than that though, and if it makes some MPs think twice about what their constituents are actually thinking it won't be a waste of time.

When I looked just now our own constituency was at exactly 1%, strangely. 1082 signatures out of 108,256.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 2:05 pm

Lest we forget that it wasn't Parliament who delayed the vote on the Withdrawal Agreement for a month as it was feared it was heading for a large defeat.

Wonder who it was that did that?

Post by **adam** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 2:08 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
PorFavor wrote:
Rory Carroll

Ireland’s Twitterverse is roasting Tory MEP Daniel Hannan for bungling Irish history in a Telegraph article and then refusing to admit his mistake.

In citing Ireland as an example of baleful EU influence, the Brexiteer wrote that Fianna Fáil won every Irish election between 1932 and 2008.

The party in fact lost six times. When challenged about this and other points this week Hannan doubled down in a tweet.

“I managed a Double First in Modern History from Oxford. One of the things I was taught is that historians necessarily have different takes on the same events. Please try to accept that yours is not the only interpretation.” (Politics Live, Guardian)
I would agree if he was talking about why FF won or lost but the fact that they didn't win all of them?

Silly man. Been caught out so many times for lying and just refuses to admit it.

They topped the poll in all of them. Perhaps the man elected by a PR system only understands FPTP?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 2:13 pm

Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak
Dutch PM, Mark Rutte, says he and colleagues will give May short delay as long as MPs do their bit too - says problems have not been ‘her mistakes’, but others ‘playing party politics’
1:05 PM · Mar 21, 2019 · Twitter for iPhone

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He does have a point. MPs voted to trigger article 50 on the basis of May's hard Brexit white paper, so they knew roughly the kind of deal she was going to negotiate. If they got cold feet, especially after May's majority was lost in the 2017 GE, the time to make a stand was during the passage of the Withdrawal Bill last summer. They should have refused to pass it until satisfied with the backstop agreed in Dec 2017 and the basis of negotiation for the future relationship. It's the MPs who backed May then but are refusing to back her now that are predominantly guilty of playing party politics. As such, I'm not willing to allow Tory MPs to palm this failure off onto May alone. The whole party, the delusional ERG and the cowardly moderates, have all contributed to this shitshow as much as May. And anyone who voted to trigger article 50 when they opposed May's hard Brexit are also, to a lesser extent, responsible, for putting us in this situation. All because they didn't want to be seen "blocking Brexit", running scared of the tabloid spin, instead of treating the electorate as grown ups capable of understanding it's important to decide how to Brexit before firing the starting pistol.

So if May comes out of this dismally, much of the rest of parliament don't come out of it much better I'm afraid.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 2:34 pm

gilsey wrote:
Willow904 wrote:https://petition.parliament.uk/petition ... OH2CBJ2yLc
Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU.
I don't know what the record for a parliament petition is, but I've certainly never seen one grow as quickly as this before. There's a lot of talk in the media of the public having had enough of the Brexit hooha, but only in terms of "get on with it". This is more "give it up, you bunch of muppets".
There was one a while ago that went quite viral, I've been trying to remember what it was, maybe badgers. Feeling nostalgic for more innocent times.

This one's much faster than that though, and if it makes some MPs think twice about what their constituents are actually thinking it won't be a waste of time.

When I looked just now our own constituency was at exactly 1%, strangely. 1082 signatures out of 108,256.

There was the one suggesting that the Brexit vote should only count if it was over 60% of at least 75% of the eligible voters ( started by a brexiter - pre brexit )
4 million signed it I think - but mostly after the vote.
The originator was mightily peeved - saying it had been bushwhacked by remainers.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 2:41 pm

RoT also has a good point, mind.

The stand out, most appalling act by anyone to date, was when May pulled the vote on her deal before Christmas. We should have got to this point (no more votes on same deal) far sooner, with time left for indicative votes and some kind of decision by parliament before the cut off for asking for an extension was upon us. So it certainly isn't possible to blame May too much. I'm just keen to ensure the rest of the Tory party aren't blamed too little!

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 3:05 pm

Lost Soul wrote:

There was the one suggesting that the Brexit vote should only count if it was over 60% of at least 75% of the eligible voters ( started by a brexiter - pre brexit )
4 million signed it I think - but mostly after the vote.
The originator was mightily peeved - saying it had been bushwhacked by remainers.

'hijacked'

- here it is. Called for a second ref'

This latest petition is not yet the biggest call for the government to put aside the result of the 2016 referendum. A petition launched before the referendum, calling on the government to run a second referendum if the vote for the winning side was less than 60% on a turnout of less than 75% got little attention before the vote but more than 4 million signatures afterwards.

The creator of that petition, William Oliver Healey, was a leave voter, who later expressed frustration that his petition had been “hijacked” by remainers. “This petition was created at a time (over a month ago) when it was looking unlikely that leave were going to win, with the intention of making it harder for remain to further shackle us to the EU,” he wrote on Facebook at the time.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 3:07 pm

I've just checked on the Revoke petition. The tally stood at -

1,012,820.

Edited to add - then it crashed again

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 3:10 pm

Lost Soul wrote:
Lost Soul wrote:

There was the one suggesting that the Brexit vote should only count if it was over 60% of at least 75% of the eligible voters ( started by a brexiter - pre brexit )
4 million signed it I think - but mostly after the vote.
The originator was mightily peeved - saying it had been bushwhacked by remainers.
'hijacked' - here it is. Called for a second ref'

This latest petition is not yet the biggest call for the government to put aside the result of the 2016 referendum. A petition launched before the referendum, calling on the government to run a second referendum if the vote for the winning side was less than 60% on a turnout of less than 75% got little attention before the vote but more than 4 million signatures afterwards.

The creator of that petition, William Oliver Healey, was a leave voter, who later expressed frustration that his petition had been “hijacked” by remainers. “This petition was created at a time (over a month ago) when it was looking unlikely that leave were going to win, with the intention of making it harder for remain to further shackle us to the EU,” he wrote on Facebook at the time.

Further evidence that many leave campaigners never expected to win - and more than a few didn't even want to.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 3:12 pm

gilsey wrote:No such thing as a Double First in Modern History either, apparently.

Yes - but that's just your interpretation.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 4:08 pm

So , what's being reported as the EU digging its heels in and refusing to allow a longer extension is actually because May 'won't countenance' any involvement in the EU elections.

( Stella Creasey table headbutt )

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 4:12 pm

The Germans are doing what they can to help us :

UK's top toilet roll supplier stockpiling in case of no-deal Brexit. The German firm Wepa said it had been storing an extra 600 tonnes of toilet and kitchen roll in the last three to four months to safeguard supplies in Britain, in case the UK crashes out of the EU without an agreement on 29 March.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... oms-delays" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 4:14 pm

It's only 3.5 million rolls though - that's about a week , given current current events.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 5:26 pm

I'm really pleased that Lucy Powell, who I think can be very effective, seems to have found some common ground with Corbyn.

Which made me think about Tinge. There was an idea that this would be the start of an avalanche, I think the opposite is true.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 5:29 pm

'the start of an avalanche'

A bit like the UK leaving the EU then.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 5:44 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:I'm really pleased that Lucy Powell, who I think can be very effective, seems to have found some common ground with Corbyn.

Which made me think about Tinge. There was an idea that this would be the start of an avalanche, I think the opposite is true.

For me the die was cast when Labour right wingers who would genuinely be a loss if they went - the likes of Kyle, McGovern and Creasy - made clear early on that they were not interested (they sometimes qualified that with "for now", but I have little doubt Umunna and Leslie were hoping for more defections almost right away)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 5:55 pm

Theresa May is to make a statement later from Brussels. Because the last statement she made went so well.

Edited - typo

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 6:54 pm

I'm hearing on BBC TV News that, "Theresa May hasn't impressed too many people here[Brussels]."

Edited to add -

PTO