Saturday, 4th - Monday, 6th May inclusive 2019

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 04 May, 2019 6:48 am

Good morfternoon.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 04 May, 2019 7:52 am

@HindleA

But it was you who said it would all come down to goal difference!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 10:35 am

Zero Tory representative proximity is my grasping at straws ,the damage may be permanent.I don't blame Corbyn as such far more Labour equals him,universally disliked.When he goes will previous return?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 10:50 am

Equally if not more so by the younger,the get the young out will not wirk.,certainly here.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 10:56 am

Simply couldn't get past "Corbyn ",not him/actual discussion outwith was futile.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 04 May, 2019 11:01 am

HindleA wrote:Equally if not more so by the younger,the get the young out will not wirk.,certainly here.

It doesn't work that well in local elections, no.

Like you, I'm in a seat that went Labour to Tory at the last GE. But unlike yours, we returned a majority Labour council this week.

Something quite a few were not expecting.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 11:05 am

Hence ,continual "defence" only reverberates,solidifies the dislike and equals Labour thing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 11:14 am

ShallI say I am struck and always have been by tactics of the "irony?" of the "it's the policies not the personalities" wing and leave it at that.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 04 May, 2019 11:16 am

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/0 ... al-is-func" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Labour-Tory Brexit deal is functionally insane

Thing is, holding EU elections is also unpalatable to the Tories and the only way to avoid them theoretically is passing a WA so May is going to be pretty desperate to get something agreed. I say theoretically because it's not certain the EU would agree passing the WA will be enough. It could take a couple of months to ratify it, so she may already be out of time to avoid the EU elections. and the results of those elections will be interesting. In the past Farage has managed campaigns to perfection, ensuring peak Euroscepticism at the right moment, but can he generate that same level of enthusiasm in the wake of Brexit fatigue? Turnout is going to be key. We know there hasn't been much of a drop off in those supporting Brexit, the question is whether that support is still strong enough to propel people out to vote for it. I'm pretty sure we're going to get the chance to find out.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 04 May, 2019 11:32 am

My own take on this is that just saying there should be some sort of deal isn't the same as actually agreeing one.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 04 May, 2019 11:49 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:My own take on this is that just saying there should be some sort of deal isn't the same as actually agreeing one.

Sure, which is why I said May would be desperate to get one, not that Corbyn would be desperate to agree one. If she moves to Corbyn's position, though, would he really move the goalposts to avoid the trap Ian Dunt sets out above? He's counting on May not budging, perhaps, which is maybe not much of a gamble. Setting himself in a position of wanting to make a deal still has a price with remain voters, though, even if it's unlikely to actually happen.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 11:58 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ind-voters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

UK court ruling to lead to improved facilities for blind voters

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 12:00 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... high-court" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Universal credit regulations ruled unlawful by high court

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 12:02 pm

It would simplify things to ascertain where they don't break the law.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 04 May, 2019 12:04 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:My own take on this is that just saying there should be some sort of deal isn't the same as actually agreeing one.
Sure, which is why I said May would be desperate to get one, not that Corbyn would be desperate to agree one. If she moves to Corbyn's position, though, would he really move the goalposts to avoid the trap Ian Dunt sets out above? He's counting on May not budging, perhaps, which is maybe not much of a gamble. Setting himself in a position of wanting to make a deal still has a price with remain voters, though, even if it's unlikely to actually happen.

May agreeing something close to Labour's proposed "deal" really might finally break her party, though.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 04 May, 2019 12:11 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:My own take on this is that just saying there should be some sort of deal isn't the same as actually agreeing one.
Sure, which is why I said May would be desperate to get one, not that Corbyn would be desperate to agree one. If she moves to Corbyn's position, though, would he really move the goalposts to avoid the trap Ian Dunt sets out above? He's counting on May not budging, perhaps, which is maybe not much of a gamble. Setting himself in a position of wanting to make a deal still has a price with remain voters, though, even if it's unlikely to actually happen.

There was a breaking news thing earlier on Sky TV news saying that Theresa May was now offering all sorts of things to Labour (or Jeremy Corbyn). It disappeared fairly quickly and wasn't referred to in the main news - so perhaps it was rubbish and they ditched it. I haven't tuned in for the past couple of hours or so, and don't know if it's been picked up again.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 04 May, 2019 12:15 pm

A reminder that it is 40 years ago this afternoon that a certain somebody quoted St Francis of Assisi at us.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 04 May, 2019 12:56 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:My own take on this is that just saying there should be some sort of deal isn't the same as actually agreeing one.
Sure, which is why I said May would be desperate to get one, not that Corbyn would be desperate to agree one. If she moves to Corbyn's position, though, would he really move the goalposts to avoid the trap Ian Dunt sets out above? He's counting on May not budging, perhaps, which is maybe not much of a gamble. Setting himself in a position of wanting to make a deal still has a price with remain voters, though, even if it's unlikely to actually happen.
There was a breaking news thing earlier on Sky TV news saying that Theresa May was now offering all sorts of things to Labour (or Jeremy Corbyn). It disappeared fairly quickly and wasn't referred to in the main news - so perhaps it was rubbish and they ditched it. I haven't tuned in for the past couple of hours or so, and don't know if it's been picked up again.

If May was willing to agree the backstop she must surely be willing to agree a permanent CU (though many of her MPs, keen on a trade deal with the US won't be). I suspect her main aim is freedom from the EU for the City of London, which is possibly why there has been suggestions the talks are stalling over "services" even though Labour's official Brexit stance doesn't explicitly promise any regulatory alignment with the EU on services. Which is why I was softening towards Corbyn again until he opened his mouth and irritated me again. Maybe I'm softening to others influence on policy, rather than Corbyn's personal position, I don't know. I'm certainly not in the Tony Robinson camp on Corbyn, though. I don't think he's especially capable, or inspiring, but intentions are important too and on that front I'm more sympathetic. We shall see.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 4:50 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 04 May, 2019 4:56 pm

NI local elections not finished declaring yet, but looks like the DUP may be dropping a few seats and the SDLP making a bit of a comeback in some areas.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 6:11 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:NI local elections not finished declaring yet, but looks like the DUP may be dropping a few seats and the SDLP making a bit of a comeback in some areas.

Correct
Eight out of eleven councils declared
Thirteen DUP Councillors in five councils lost their seats

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ve-results" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 6:13 pm

Tories lost 1335 Councillors!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48091592" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 6:19 pm

What parties (if any) make up the number of 'Others', please?
The BBC webpage linked above

Conservative -1335
Labour -82
Liberal Democrat +704
Green +194
UKIP -145
Others +662

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 04 May, 2019 6:32 pm

They are mostly Independents/localist groups, but also a few minor parties.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 04 May, 2019 6:39 pm

Quite a few of "others" will be independents, not part of any particular party. It seems to be a part of a general trend of rejecting 'elites' and 'career politicians'. It also means lots of people being elected without any real sense of what they represent or stand for, at least for those of us who don't live in their constituency and therefore haven't seen their campaign literature. I assume the people who actually voted for them know what their aims are. The rest of us, however, can only guess.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 04 May, 2019 7:11 pm

Notts County - now that is a bit of a shame.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 7:18 pm

Willow904 wrote:Quite a few of "others" will be independents, not part of any particular party. It seems to be a part of a general trend of rejecting 'elites' and 'career politicians'. It also means lots of people being elected without any real sense of what they represent or stand for, at least for those of us who don't live in their constituency and therefore haven't seen their campaign literature. I assume the people who actually voted for them know what their aims are. The rest of us, however, can only guess.

I thought so. Tories know they're a bad name-brand. There's nothing stopping the lot dumping their 'Tory Party' name and carrying on calling themselves something else.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 8:04 pm

I must be living in a different reality,the brand so bad it transformed never even conceivable Tory areas into blue with some ease.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 8:21 pm

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 04 May, 2019 8:38 pm

HindleA wrote:I must be living in a different reality,the brand so bad it transformed never even conceivable Tory areas into blue with some ease.

Demographics doing a great deal of work in your case, I regret to say.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 04 May, 2019 10:07 pm

Anger grows at May-Corbyn bid to stitch up Brexit deal

The Observer can reveal that 104 opposition MPs, mainly from Labour but also SNP, Change UK, Green and Plaid Cymru, have written to May and Corbyn insisting they will not back a “Westminster stitch-up” unless there is a firm guarantee that any deal is then put to a confirmatory referendum. (Observer)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-deal

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 10:49 pm

Same demographics as neighbouring non Tory councillor /equally Brexit area,point is wasn't inevitable and so easily explained.And it is the older keeping the party afloat at all,the younger,if anything going Tory.Far from universally toxic was my point.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 04 May, 2019 11:36 pm

What was the turnout in the local elections?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 05 May, 2019 12:23 am

Increasing turnout/of the young not the easy fit solution some proclaim,if that is your point.I mix with the working class young)er,shall I say not Labour or remotely persuadable towards.Whether people like it or think fair they can't stand or relate to Corbyn.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 05 May, 2019 10:28 am

Will the bad as each other propagandists take any responsibilty ,I doubt it of they even acknowledge.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 05 May, 2019 10:31 am

Wanting it bad self fulfillment leads to badness not a glorious revolution,if only the plebs would remove their false consciousness and do the right thing.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 05 May, 2019 10:36 am

HindleA wrote:Increasing turnout/of the young not the easy fit solution some proclaim,if that is your point.I mix with the working class young)er,shall I say not Labour or remotely persuadable towards.Whether people like it or think fair they can't stand or relate to Corbyn.

"Can't relate" is an interesting observation as I would very much put myself in that category and have puzzled over the idea he can particularly communicate to a younger generation when all the people I know who are enthused by him are older than me and therefore closer to Corbyn in age and cultural outlook.

AFinch · Post by **AFinch** » Sun 05 May, 2019 10:41 am

Good morning everyone.

Stoke. Bloody Stoke.

http://averypublicsociologist.blogspot. ... stoke.html

I am an active member and I know the man who wrote this, though not well.

I don't necessarily agree with everything he's laid out here.

I do know that the selection process was painfully slow and badly organised and that also goes for the deliberation and consultation on the manifesto.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 05 May, 2019 10:44 am

Hence why I question the tactics of "using" his personality or at least continual reverberating "defence".

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 05 May, 2019 11:47 am

Good morfternoon.

I wish I could believe that Jeremy Corbyn was only preparing to enter a deal to show "good faith" (for the good of the country etc etc) with the intention of, justifiably, backing out of it when Theresa May's successor inevitably reneges on it. But I don't think I do. Although John McDonnell seems to be preparing the ground for such a scenario, and is doing a fairly good job of heading off any future accusations of weakness.

Edited - brackets

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 05 May, 2019 11:57 am

Brexit party figures who left over offensive posts are still directors

Former leader and former treasurer of Farage’s party were supposed to have cut ties
(Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -directors

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 05 May, 2019 12:01 pm

The priority seating for lazy luggage doesn't seem to be lessening to any degree,ban their owners,denying travel should result in being denied travel.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 May, 2019 12:39 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I wish I could believe that Jeremy Corbyn was only preparing to enter a deal to show "good faith" (for the good of the country etc etc) with the intention of, justifiably, backing out of it when Theresa May's successor inevitably reneges on it. But I don't think I do. Although John McDonnell seems to be preparing the ground for such a scenario, and is doing a fairly good job of heading off any future accusations of weakness.

Edited - brackets

I remain highly sceptical there is going to be any "deal" in the immediate future.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 05 May, 2019 1:26 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

I wish I could believe that Jeremy Corbyn was only preparing to enter a deal to show "good faith" (for the good of the country etc etc) with the intention of, justifiably, backing out of it when Theresa May's successor inevitably reneges on it. But I don't think I do. Although John McDonnell seems to be preparing the ground for such a scenario, and is doing a fairly good job of heading off any future accusations of weakness.

Edited - brackets
I remain highly sceptical there is going to be any "deal" in the immediate future.

So do I - when listening to John McDonnell - but not so much when I hear Jeremy Corbyn.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 May, 2019 2:01 pm

Maybe they are trying to appeal to different audiences?

Just a thought.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 05 May, 2019 2:42 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Maybe they are trying to appeal to different audiences?

Just a thought.

Like May threatening "no deal"/"no Brexit" depending on the audience?

Surely such double dealing is exactly what's been driving the erosion of trust in politicians. I thought Corbyn was supposed to be the antithesis of triangulation, rather than a master of it.

For once I find myself in agreement with the general mood which seems to be that people are fed up with Labour's lack of clarity on Brexit. There's nothing wrong with trying to take a path that will bring leave and remain voters together, but they really need to clearly articulate what they think that path is and why or people will become reluctant to vote for them because they don't know what Brexit policy they will get if they vote Labour and do not want their vote used as a mandate to pursue a policy they don't want.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 05 May, 2019 2:49 pm

John McDonnell pours cold water on May's customs union plan

Shadow chancellor says he has no trust in PM and likens Brexit talks to dealing with firm that is going bust (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... l-with-may

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 05 May, 2019 3:01 pm

Its like this I suppose - Corbyn is positioning himself so that he can say "look, we tried" if (when?) the talks finally fail??

Whereas the reported comments of McDonnell just above speak for themselves.

I would be surprised if the two hadn't actually agreed to take a slightly "different" position.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 May, 2019 3:35 pm

I wanted to know voter turnout. I'd no other point.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 05 May, 2019 3:40 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Its like this I suppose - Corbyn is positioning himself so that he can say "look, we tried" if (when?) the talks finally fail??

Whereas the reported comments of McDonnell just above speak for themselves.

I would be surprised if the two hadn't actually agreed to take a slightly "different" position.

Probably, yes