Wednesday 29th May 2019

Post by **refitman** » Wed 29 May, 2019 7:04 am

Morning all.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 May, 2019 8:58 am

Good morfternoon.

Corbyn could come out fighting with a rebellious remain and reform agenda

Yes - but will he?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -elections

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Wed 29 May, 2019 9:22 am

Morning all.

Off to the library in a minute but this is attracting attention...

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Love the way that there are three blank signature spaces - refused to sign or not even asked?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 29 May, 2019 9:24 am

Council spending on local services down 21% over past decade

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/14133" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have you seen the trailer for tonight's Panorama? 'After years of funding cuts..... what's the future for social care?'
First decide if you want it to improve, if so reverse the cuts. If not, stop pretending you do.
Not rocket science.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 May, 2019 10:31 am

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Corbyn could come out fighting with a rebellious remain and reform agenda
Yes - but will he?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -elections

I hope so. But it remains a knotty problem. Corbyn can't just ignore places like Doncaster however much he might like to!

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 May, 2019 10:42 am

For clarity it's a good piece and chimes with what I believe. But I do acknowledge the complexity of the situation.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:00 am

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... ef=uk-news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Boris Johnson To Be Summonsed To Court Over Accusations Of Public Misconduct

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:02 am

Unless there is a wholesale change in the doomladen narrative and misrepresentation of what social care actually encompasses and purposes (or should be) ,political machination continues to override what is in the power to do now eg.as previous absolutely no reason for the fifteen minute slap and dash to exist now and hasn't for years and the associated squabbling over miniscule amounts at an individual level collectively of clear mutual benefit I can't see much progress being made.Money itself is only part of what is necessary,we used to "see this" ,my hope is we begin to see it again.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:11 am

Boris Johnson will be summonsed to court to face accusations of misconduct in public office over claims he was lying when he said the UK gave the EU £350m a week, PA reports. (Politics Live, Guardian)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:12 am

@Willow904

Whoops!

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:18 am

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Corbyn could come out fighting with a rebellious remain and reform agenda
Yes - but will he?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -elections
I hope so. But it remains a knotty problem. Corbyn can't just ignore places like Doncaster however much he might like to!

Good morning to you all

I hope you are all keeping well and had a good Bank Holiday

I would like to see this as well....always been a 'Remain and Reform' believer

There is a problem though - the EU has shown little enthusiasm for this due to the make-up of the national Governments and the fiscal conservatism of Germany. Alongside the good things its has done regarding minimum standards, there is still the right-wing economic dogma that holds sway and is unlikely to change soon

The other issue for Corbyn taking this stance is that he will be campaigning alongside people who do not want to change and see any move away from this dogma as bad. The Single Market was a Tory idea and a lot of remainers in the UK are wedded to that concept.

Corbyn tried to get that message across in the referendum and was pilloried for it....remember his 7/10 comment

I actually believe that any Remain campaign in a new referendum if against May's deal (can that ever be put to the people?) or No Deal has to be led by the Remain and Reform message but, if this week is anything to go by, it will be a repeat of last time with a lot of lecturing going on.

If that is the case I will see Remain losing as I think (based on my gut feeling) and if it is against No Deal that is a real worry - I know we like to think that there is no majority for No Deal in the country but the electorate never cease to do anything but surprise me and the hard-core Remainers make me cringe so how do they come across to others?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:26 am

The crime Johnson has been accused of, misconduct in public office, has a maximum sentence of life. It's not a charge that would ever be brought lightly. That someone running for the Conservative leadership should be facing such a charge is quite remarkable on the one hand and somewhat unsurprising on the other. Perhaps if we're stuck with an utterly corrupt democracy it's best to have it out in the open so we at least know what we're dealing with.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:32 am

Not only your gut feeling,it doesn't help of course that the majority think no deal is completely different to what it is (or isn't)and of course we don't know what the majority think,or indeed if they particularly think about it at all.

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:36 am

Willow904 wrote:The crime Johnson has been accused of, misconduct in public office, has a maximum sentence of life. It's not a charge that would ever be brought lightly. That someone running for the Conservative leadership should be facing such a charge is quite remarkable on the one hand and somewhat unsurprising on the other. Perhaps if we're stuck with an utterly corrupt democracy it's best to have it out in the open so we at least know what we're dealing with.

Well, I am not sorry to see this happen but would have liked to see it with the Garden Bridge as well......plenty of examples of misconduct in office by many politicians if being economical with the truth is the standard. The claims around the finances and the corruption of the campaign would have been more serious

There is a danger that this will be seen as politically motivated, I would have said Blair should have been prosecuted over his lying about Iraq or Campbell for his role in a blatantly racist poster of Michael Howard (or Farage for the same reason) but they probably would not have been wise

This is a private prosecution, not a criminal one and so may well help him rather than hinder him. I do fear for the person who brought it and the judge as their motivations will be under the microscope by the media

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:53 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... pays-price" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:56 am

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:57 am

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/ier/peopl ... alsecurity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:58 am

I think law and society need to push back at corruption as much as possible else more and more lines will be crossed as more and more outrageous behaviour goes unpunished.

Every time we turn a blind eye we embolden these shysters to take even greater liberties with our laws and public standards. A little reminder every now and then that the law is still there and that no one is above it might just make the likes of Boris Johnson to row back a little.

True justice may be too much to hope for but a few moments of doubt of omnipotence may succeed in deterring an otherwise runaway spiral of taking the piss. I hope so, anyway. Certainly Arron Banks doesn't seem quite so delighted with himself since he's attracted the interest of the NCA.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 11:59 am

https://warwick.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/f ... EnuWbbhsBn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 May, 2019 12:05 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... pays-price

Simon Stevens wants to force a Tory government to take responsibility for its citizens? Well he's certainly ambitious, I'll give him that. Given the Tories spend every last ounce of their energy dumping responsibility for everything on the individual as a matter of strict ideology I think he's got a bit of a battle on his hands.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 May, 2019 12:22 pm

Priti Patel is on manoeuvres, according to Sky News.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 May, 2019 1:01 pm

PorFavor wrote:Priti Patel is on manoeuvres, according to Sky News.

Tripe plait?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 1:17 pm

(phew-given some of the alternatives)

Edited to add anagrammatical alternative clarification

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 1:25 pm

@willow

I would say kind of-they are quite happy to splash money to the oppressed struggling on a £100,000 a year,mysteriously exempt from budgeting advice/work harder/live within means unlike those who are selfish and made the lifestyle choice of becoming ill/hit by a bus etc.Of course ,the former are doing the right thing on assumption they are more likely to vote Tory.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 29 May, 2019 1:27 pm

HindleA wrote:Not only your gut feeling,it doesn't help of course that the majority think no deal is completely different to what it is (or isn't)and of course we don't know what the majority think,or indeed if they particularly think about it at all.

A few actually think it means nothing changing, rather more have bought into the snake oil salesmen who insist it will all be rather painless.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 1:30 pm

Or indeed in effect bribe those that would gain by throwing a relative or two into a home rather than them staying at home.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 29 May, 2019 1:40 pm

PorFavor wrote:Priti Patel is on manoeuvres, according to Sky News.

Won't take long before she is sunk?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 1:53 pm

Is she in a battleship or something(or thinks she is)?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 May, 2019 1:54 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Priti Patel is on manoeuvres, according to Sky News.
Won't take long before she is sunk?

Here's hopin' . . .

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:06 pm

https://amp.theguardian.com/music/2019/ ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:17 pm

HindleA wrote:Is she in a battleship or something(or thinks she is)?

Frigate.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:23 pm

I only asked.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:31 pm

And stop muttering expletives under your breath,madam.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:33 pm

Take the free gin offer up with Constance

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:35 pm

"I met a gin-soaked alley cat in Bognor"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:41 pm

Actually met a gin soaked woman outside a bar in Manchester though the attempt was somewhat different as to what the next line would suggest.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:41 pm

HindleA wrote:"I met a gin-soaked alley cat in Bognor"

Don't tempt me . . .

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:52 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... d-councils" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:54 pm

Lol at media people saying to Labour members "Charles Clarke also voted LibDem, want him expelled too?"

Or even more hilariously "you haven't expelled Kate Hoey" when that is what literally *everybody* wants.

(she hasn't been expelled, btw, because she hasn't broken any party rules - there is at least a very strong argument Campbell did)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 2:56 pm

https://www.apse.org.uk/apse/index.cfm/ ... programme/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:04 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Lol at media people saying to Labour members "Charles Clarke also voted LibDem, want him expelled too?"

Or even more hilariously "you haven't expelled Kate Hoey" when that is what literally *everybody* wants.

(she hasn't been expelled, btw, because she hasn't broken any party rules - there is at least a very strong argument Campbell did)

Indeed. It's pretty certain that both know exactly what the rules say. Which makes one wonder why Campbell did this?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:09 pm

He was asked,was it better then to lie?.Whatever your view the stench of hypocrisy of historical and present fervent anti Labourists with a tenuous or even non existent link with the Party rather than myth,is rank.IMHO.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:16 pm

Yer actual Tory Government enablers now emboldened to continue their hitlist.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:20 pm

If you view that via a prism rather than a single member(don't get me started on the "members" think stuff)view,that's the actual problem.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:22 pm

Dissent is essential and actual democracy not the opposite

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:29 pm

You-in general not personally applied.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:30 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Lol at media people saying to Labour members "Charles Clarke also voted LibDem, want him expelled too?"

Or even more hilariously "you haven't expelled Kate Hoey" when that is what literally *everybody* wants.

(she hasn't been expelled, btw, because she hasn't broken any party rules - there is at least a very strong argument Campbell did)
Indeed. It's pretty certain that both know exactly what the rules say. Which makes one wonder why Campbell did this?

The rules are clear about supporting another party standing against Labour in the run up to a vote but say nothing specifically about voting, which is as it should be. In a democracy no one should be constrained in voting how they wish, not even by party membership. So the case against Campbell presumably revolves around exactly what he said about voting Libdem and how he said it, which may be "support" for another party and may well be grounds to expel him but, to me, it seems far from clear cut. As such, it could well rumble on and maybe Campbell is cool with that. Regardless, it's proved a handy distraction from the real problem, which is that an awful lot of natural Labour voters really don't like Labour's Brexit policy/strategy. And I don't think yet more tiny shifts with convoluted language is going to be enough, not now so many have taken the plunge and moved elsewhere.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:36 pm

HindleA wrote:He was asked,was it better then to lie?.Whatever your view the stench of hypocrisy of historical and present fervent anti Labourists with a tenuous or even non existent link with the Party rather than myth,is rank.IMHO.

Fair point, but readily enough avoided with a simple who I vote for is my business, which is widely accepted answer to what is quite a personal question.

IMHO Campbell knew precisely what he was doing and what the consequences would be. That may be admirable or not. I'm just interested in his motives.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:51 pm

I'm just disappointed ,that despite my best efforts,I have never yet appeared in a hitlist of any kind,as yet .That is my motive

Vote Green

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 29 May, 2019 3:54 pm

Though my whole region has got suspended in the past.

TO,dispensing with the superfluous please,except then