Monday 17th June 2019

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 6:31 am

Morning

"Every old person should die with dignity"
Hunt apparently said
Revealing the mindset and ignorance in just a few words,a skill of sorts.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 6:33 am

At what fucking age is it acceptable to die without dignity?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 6:52 am

Now approaching "older" my view on the ridiculous some how more deserving by the great skill of not dying rains the same.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 7:34 am

Universally Rory Stewart seems to be seen as the "winner".

But does he have any chance?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 7:36 am

@HA

Indeed.

Nothing to add.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 7:47 am

The Groan has

Stewart 5
Hunt 4
Gove 3
Javid 3
Raab 2

Out of five.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 7:55 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... s-services" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:00 am

Manfred Mann has

[youtube]O9CAPrEG5sM[/youtube]

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:15 am

It is continuing health care that funds dying at home,not social care.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:18 am

Morning all.

Interesting choice of words...

Greg Hands
@GregHands
I like
@RoryStewartUK
but it would be a fundamental mistake for the Conservative Party to go to the country with an All Etonian shortlist.
7:24 PM · Jun 16, 2019 · Twitter for iPhone

Many replies are of the "OK, so dump Boris" variety...

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:19 am

Haven't written that very well,if you wish to die at home that is one of the functions/eligibility access to CHC.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:21 am

It supplanted social care in our case.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:23 am

He hasn't got enough orifices to talk crap out of.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:28 am

Maybe politicos in general should spend less time on PR and media training and learn a tad about their brief or (what was)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:36 am

Then again that might be asking for trouble and risk putting an age restriction or some such.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:38 am

Or some sort of sliding dignity scale.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:40 am

I never stop being "surprised" at their level of stupidity.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:51 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Interesting choice of words...

Greg Hands
@GregHands
I like
@RoryStewartUK
but it would be a fundamental mistake for the Conservative Party to go to the country with an All Etonian shortlist.
7:24 PM · Jun 16, 2019 · Twitter for iPhone
Many replies are of the "OK, so dump Boris" variety...

It does seem unlikely that Stewart will make the final two.

But in line with what friends here have said previously, he's probably patting himself on the back and saying job well done, since if he keeps his nose clean he'll be an obvious contender in future.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 8:55 am

"nose clean"

Post by **adam** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 9:18 am

The Conservatives get hours of free coverage in what could be the run up to a General Election, to put a wide range of leading politicians in front of the cameras to talk about whatever they want to talk about with no comeback for any of the opposition parties.

The Telegraph complain that it's unfair on the Conservatives. (paywall)

Channel 4 was accused by Tory MPs of attempting to "sideline" Dominic Raab, the one 'hard' Brexiteer, in the first television debate of the party's leadership race on Sunday. Tory MPs complained that the debate had been "geared up" to encourage the leadership candidates to "knock chunks out of each other".

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 9:22 am

I found this interesting (although others might not)

Is time to end our fixation with GDP and growth?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/j ... and-growth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GDP includes rough estimates for the value of drugs and prostitution, yet fails to take account of unpaid work in the home. In a sign of the scale of what is missing, in 2016, the value of the UK’s unpaid household service work was estimated at £1.24tn, more than the entire non-financial sector.

On paper, charities account for only £27bn of the British economy, but Andy Haldane, the chief economist at the Bank of England, reckons this figure could be increased to £234bn a year if the value of volunteering and the benefits it brings were adequately accounted for.

Environmental degradation is not included in GDP. After the Exxon Valdez disaster in 1989, the oil spill showed up as a net economic gain because the money spent on the clean-up effort boosted US GDP – despite the damage to Alaska’s waters.

The measure takes no account of leisure time, meaning that two countries might have equal GDP but one has workers toiling for 12 hour days and the other only eight. Large amounts of output captured by GDP are also wasteful, such as the hundreds of thousands of tonnes of food wasted in Britain each year, or the Christmas jumpers bought for one night, only to degrade in landfill for centuries.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 9:45 am

Tory Fibs
‏@ToryFibs
44 minutes ago

Tom Watson:

• 2014: I demand an EU referendum
• 2016: I want to end Free Movement
• 2018: Labour is the party of Soft Brexit
• 2019: Labour is the party of Remain

Wonder what Tom's EU Policy will be next year?

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:17 am

The answer is blowing in the wind.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:20 am

BBC Politics
@BBCPolitics
·
55m
Chancellor Philip Hammond says a no-deal #Brexit is not "a practical proposition" and if changes are to be made to the Brexit deal then "it will take significantly longer than the 31st October"

I can't see him lasting very long if one of the "No-deal and 31st October" candidates get in.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:22 am

Has everyone seen Peter Jukes scary theory?

Peter Jukes
‏

Johnson has done a deal with Farage, backed by Bannon and Trump. All are already on an election footing ready for a General Election in October.

Post by **adam** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:29 am

gilsey wrote:Has everyone seen Peter Jukes scary theory?

Peter Jukes
‏

Johnson has done a deal with Farage, backed by Bannon and Trump. All are already on an election footing ready for a General Election in October.

Somewhere in the guardian today there's a comment saying Johnson would give Farage a free run in 30 winnable seats in return for a free run for conservatives elsewhere. Might be true - might be that something like this would come about even if it's not a done deal. Nothing much that can be done that people are not doing anyway.

Edited to add - I would like to think that this would significantly fracture the conservative party but it's one of those things where I'll believe it when I see it (not the possibilty of an agreement, I can imagine that, but a bunch of tories standing up to their own extremists).

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:34 am

I highly doubt that the Tories will not fight a significant number of seats, that's just not in their DNA as a "national party".

A deal between Johnson and Farage isn't going to be the slam dunk some are now saying, any more than PM BoJo just running down the clock to no deal would be.

People need to start seeing his win as an opportunity, rather than sinking into "he's going to triumph and nothing we can do about it" pessimism.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:36 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:I found this interesting (although others might not)

Is time to end our fixation with GDP and growth?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/j ... and-growth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EdM's covering it in his podcast.

Ed Miliband‏

GDP measures everything "except that which makes life worthwhile" said Robert Kennedy. @CheerfulPodcast on shifting to welllbeing economics w/ New Zealand Finance Minister @grantrobertson1, @anniequick, @BMHayward & former Cabinet Secretary Gus O' Donnell.

https://play.acast.com/s/reasonstobeche ... 125bf7ebeb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:42 am

Ed ahead of the curve again.

Post by **adam** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:53 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:I highly doubt that the Tories will not fight a significant number of seats, that's just not in their DNA as a "national party".

A deal between Johnson and Farage isn't going to be the slam dunk some are now saying, any more than PM BoJo just running down the clock to no deal would be.

People need to start seeing his win as an opportunity, rather than sinking into "he's going to triumph and nothing we can do about it" pessimism.

I think your latter point is spot on and I think the point I've put in bold is a very good one. The issue is that it's all but impossible to work out what Johnson actually wants and what he might actually do. If his absolute priority is to get us out of the EU - and it might be - then either forcing through an exit whatever (which should lead to an election, although you're back to relying on 'moderate' tories to give us one) or choosing to go, could lead to some kind of accommodation with Farage. It's also possible that regardless of whatever deal might be public, Farage would declare himself satisfied with what Johnson was up to and would not stand in a good number of tory defend/win targets without any need for the tories to stand anyone down.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:55 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
People need to start seeing his win as an opportunity,

He's the one most likely to go for an early GE imo, can't help thinking we're in for more months/years of paralysis with any of the others.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:10 am

gilsey wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:
People need to start seeing his win as an opportunity,
He's the one most likely to go for an early GE imo, can't help thinking we're in for more months/years of paralysis with any of the others.

And may not be his choice.

Which is why I was asking what Arlene Foster would do if Labour called No Confidence in a Johnson government.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:21 am

There seems to me to be something very murky and corrupt about Boris Johnson's (re)ascendancy. We all know that he has a history of foul deeds. Not so long ago, he was yesterday's man. What happened to "Anyone but Boris"?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:24 am

HindleA wrote:Morning

"Every old person should die with dignity"
Hunt apparently said
Revealing the mindset and ignorance in just a few words,a skill of sorts.

That's what I thought after having read Hunt's tweet.
Tory sounds off and I'm shocked & sick some more

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:24 am

Good morning, everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:25 am

Good morfternoon.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:30 am

citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:Morning

"Every old person should die with dignity"
Hunt apparently said
Revealing the mindset and ignorance in just a few words,a skill of sorts.
That's what I thought after having read Hunt's tweet.
Tory sounds off and I'm shocked & sick some more

he obviously didn't look at it in the same way as others might do.

I can see what he meant but it didn't really come across well.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:31 am

PorFavor wrote:There seems to me to be something very murky and corrupt about Boris Johnson's (re)ascendancy. We all know that he has a history of foul deeds. Not so long ago, he was yesterday's man. What happened to "Anyone but Boris"?

A Few Decide What's Acceptable: We Say So, End Of

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:43 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:Morning

"Every old person should die with dignity"
Hunt apparently said
Revealing the mindset and ignorance in just a few words,a skill of sorts.
That's what I thought after having read Hunt's tweet.
Tory sounds off and I'm shocked & sick some more
he obviously didn't look at it in the same way as others might do.

I can see what he meant but it didn't really come across well.

Caroline Lucas gave him the benefit of the doubt and made an excellent point. Hunt and his Tory government have been in leadership for over 9 years and refuse taking responsibility for their deliberate austerity project.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:46 am

citizenJA wrote: Caroline Lucas gave him the benefit of the doubt and made an excellent point. Hunt and his Tory government have been in leadership for over 9 years and refuse taking responsibility for their deliberate austerity project.

Yes, indeed. I posted a tweet from Kate Andrews of all people last night, that said much the same thing.

About being in government not the austerity which she wouldn't recognise.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:47 am

HindleA wrote:Haven't written that very well,if you wish to die at home that is one of the functions/eligibility access to CHC.

I understood what you meant immediately.

edited to add

I think you wrote it very well

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 11:57 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:
citizenJA wrote: Caroline Lucas gave him the benefit of the doubt and made an excellent point. Hunt and his Tory government have been in leadership for over 9 years and refuse taking responsibility for their deliberate austerity project.
Yes, indeed. I posted a tweet from Kate Andrews of all people last night, that said much the same thing.

About being in government not the austerity which she wouldn't recognise.

Surely its more that she agreed with it?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 12:02 pm

HindleA wrote:Maybe politicos in general should spend less time on PR and media training and learn a tad about their brief or (what was)

I imagine Tory government twitter response following the loss of a huge swathe of people is the comfortable proclamation everyone, gone or still around, is better off now.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 12:09 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:I found this interesting (although others might not)

Is time to end our fixation with GDP and growth?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/j ... and-growth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
GDP includes rough estimates for the value of drugs and prostitution, yet fails to take account of unpaid work in the home. In a sign of the scale of what is missing, in 2016, the value of the UK’s unpaid household service work was estimated at £1.24tn, more than the entire non-financial sector.

On paper, charities account for only £27bn of the British economy, but Andy Haldane, the chief economist at the Bank of England, reckons this figure could be increased to £234bn a year if the value of volunteering and the benefits it brings were adequately accounted for.

Environmental degradation is not included in GDP. After the Exxon Valdez disaster in 1989, the oil spill showed up as a net economic gain because the money spent on the clean-up effort boosted US GDP – despite the damage to Alaska’s waters.
---

(cJA edit)
War does the same thing

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 12:32 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Ed ahead of the curve again.

I miss Labour government. The mess we have now didn't have to happen.

GetYou · Post by **GetYou** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 2:34 pm

The consequences of "cutting red tape"

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight ... fell-61834

“This coalition has a clear New Year’s resolution: to kill off the health and safety culture for good,”

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 4:11 pm

Fascinating to read what Blair himself said about the EU 14 years ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... peeches.eu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 9:59 pm

Just had a brief discussion with someone called @blairsupporter on Twitter.

We agreed that Blair tacked very much to a pragmatic position on EU membership and did quite a bit of Eurosceptic appeasement.

But when I tried to suggest that Corbyn finds himself in a very similar position the response was the standard Blair is ardent pro-EU whereas Corbyn is anti.

Yawn.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:23 pm

And that attitude is why Blair's remaining supporters are now marginalised.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Mon 17 Jun, 2019 10:35 pm

Sure.

I hadn't really done the thought experiment before but in Corbyn's place Blair would probably have a very similar policy.