Thursday 4th July 2019

Post by **refitman** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 7:07 am

Morning all.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 8:19 am

Crazy mulatto sheik uncompromisingly supporting Boris Johnson on Today (3,9).

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 9:23 am

Off topic but it's quiet:

Chelsea's new manager found in ravaged farmland park (5,7).

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 9:24 am

Hunt against hunt.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/liv ... -live-news" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 9:27 am

Dog days

The dog days or dog days of summer are the hot, sultry days of summer. They were historically the period following the heliacal rising of the star system Sirius, which Greek and Roman astrology connected with heat, drought, sudden thunderstorms, lethargy, fever, mad dogs, and bad luck.

Lethargy, fever, mad dogs and bad luck. Indeed. From Martin Kettle in the Guardian today...

The debate about Brexit options has spiralled into a netherworld of faith-based outcomes and fundamentalist beliefs, in which the candidates have made promises they cannot keep about processes they do not control.

Good summary.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 10:06 am

Good morning, everyone.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 10:54 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... re-scandal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.parliament.uk/business/comm ... rt-launch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 11:02 am

It's possible we've had this before somewhere along the way, but it's wonderful.

What Britain looks like after Brexit - Daniel Hannan (June 2016 - Reaction)

During the first 12 months after the vote, Britain confirmed with the various countries that have trade deals with the EU that the same deals would continue. It also used that time to agree much more liberal terms with those states which had run up against EU protectionism, including India, China and Australia. These new treaties came into effect shortly after independence. Britain, like the EFTA countries, now combines global free trade with full participation in EU markets.

And perhaps my favourite bit...

We recalled, too, that we were the world’s leading exporter of soft power

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 11:41 am

Blatant lie from Hunt,he was always responsible for Social Care as all SofS for Health have been since 1948.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 11:52 am

Any chance we can get some posts on here after early afternoon today?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 12:37 pm

I see that Ann Widecombe has been doing her "batty old aunt who's been at the sweet sherry" act in the EU Parliament and being cheered on by the usual suspects who just love them jeering at people instead of, y'know, doing any actual work.

I'm really not sure what purpose it serves - it's not as if the EU weren't aware that we're supposed to be leaving. Maybe she thought they needed a reminder?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 12:42 pm

I have simply never got her supposed "appeal". At all.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 1:21 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Any chance we can get some posts on here after early afternoon today?

Well if there was anything to actually discuss other than Boris, Hunt and the latest round of Corbyn bashing I'd happily be here

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 1:24 pm

Abdomen winced disastrously in EU parliament (3,10).

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 1:42 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Abdomen winced disastrously in EU parliament (3,10).

The Brexit Party
✔
@brexitparty_uk

Widdecombe is on fire!
5,920
11:19 AM - Jul 4, 2019

If she were, guess what I wouldn't be doing.

Oh - and David Lammy makes a welcome re-appearance.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 1:53 pm

Re my above comment - ROT and cJA often make evening appearances. Maybe otherwise occupied yesterday?

Post by **adam** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 2:19 pm

I've decided to start using the Xhosa spelling and pronunciation and referring to our foreign secretary as Jeremy !Hunt.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 3:09 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re my above comment - ROT and cJA often make evening appearances. Maybe otherwise occupied yesterday?

Library until it closes at 8pm on Wednesdays - I'd stay a lot later if they gave me a key to lock up after me!

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 3:46 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ics-health" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 3:55 pm

The D.Green/CPS paper has got almost everything completely wrong about the current system

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 3:59 pm

As Willow said ,the "solution" came first ,the "problem" suitably (mis)adapted in attempt to "fit"Where it is correct is that the Tory manifesto musings increased the relative incentive to chuck into a home (as I see it)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 4:15 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Any chance we can get some posts on here after early afternoon today?
Well if there was anything to actually discuss other than Boris, Hunt and the latest round of Corbyn bashing I'd happily be here

Same here. I don't mean anyone here is discussing those exclusively but that's all media is focusing on. A handful of Tory people out of millions will vote for one of the two Tory disgraces and they dare attempt fobbing it off like it's a national electoral exercise.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 4:23 pm

Of course the last few Governments have had their own solution to the terrible" problem" of people not dying quickly enough for the the convenience of State neglect.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 4:24 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re my above comment - ROT and cJA often make evening appearances. Maybe otherwise occupied yesterday?

I regret not checking back in and saying goodnight yesterday. I knew when I closed the computer down without having done it, I'd made a mistake. I'm not angry with anyone here or at home. I was negligent. I'm sorry.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 4:27 pm

With respect there is plenty of things happening(or indeed continuing to not happen)you can choose to find your own news and/or discuss anything.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 4:31 pm

HindleA wrote:Of course the last few Governments have had their own solution to the terrible" problem" of people not dying quickly enough for the the convenience of State neglect.

It's true. We're not being cynical. They don't care about the well-being of most people. It's hard coming to terms with that. I find it difficult. It's demoralising. I can't stay demoralised. I must meet their indifference and hostility with word and action inoffensive to my soul as well as beneficial for myself and others.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 4:33 pm

There actually is some very good things happening,crucially viewi g it as independent living makes the difference rather than supine pathetic receivership at best.The attitudinal change,needs to happen both ways.IMHO.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 4:38 pm

As ever,the danger is Governmental seizing of "opportunity "on the "to make own arrangements" thing.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 4:44 pm

citizenJA wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Re my above comment - ROT and cJA often make evening appearances. Maybe otherwise occupied yesterday?
I regret not checking back in and saying goodnight yesterday. I knew when I closed the computer down without having done it, I'd made a mistake. I'm not angry with anyone here or at home. I was negligent. I'm sorry.

No problem.

Its just that your regular "goodnight" is one of those things that reassures as part of the daily routine

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:03 pm

I feel one of the more negative developments of recent years is that local councils have come to be viewed as just being there to provide services only for very poor people for free. This wasn't always the case. My gran had meals on wheels and a home help, both provided by the council, but paid for by her. The ability of councils to pool resources to provide services that are reliable and affordable in areas where the private sector can't be relied on because of the difficulty of making a profit and the ever present problem of leaving people in the lurch if private companies go bust /quit, shouldn't be overlooked.

In Japan, where they were recently forced to tackle their own social care crisis, they have used a whole range of ways to fund it - social care insurance, rather like our own NI, general taxation and direct co-payments, rather like my gran paid for her meals on wheels. The thing which underpins this approach, however, is that the care is all provided as a public service, not by the private sector and I think this is the important bit, not the exact method of funding.

The one thing they haven't done in Japan is obsess over house prices and how to unlock money tied up in them. It has nothing to do with social care and this obsession, and how to sell it to a resistant public as necessary and the only way to afford social care, is what's stopping the UK tackle its social care crisis. Ie. Our politicians are trying to solve the wrong problem (over-inflated house prices) for the wrong reason (greed for lower taxes for the better off).

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:06 pm

HindleA wrote:With respect there is plenty of things happening(or indeed continuing to not happen)you can choose to find your own news and/or discuss anything.

You're right and I regret not having done so sooner. I think everything is political. I've been reading centuries old fiction and analysis. It's taught me a lot about current UK politics and society. My mind races, I write what I think is important, think some more then often decide not to post it. I dislike my own writing. What I'm trying to communicate is important but my writing style is tedious. I make many grammatical errors and rely on passive voice too often, for example.

I liked this from elsewhere.
Top 10 books about walking in Britain
From comments below the line, I found out Rory Stewart wrote, The Marches. I've only read a small sample and I'm unimpressed.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:19 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ics-health

Matt Hancock claims government's failure to provide the social care green paper is Labour's fault.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:24 pm

@AnatolyKasparov
It's important to me. Thank you for letting me know it's important to you too.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:30 pm

Willow904 wrote:---
The one thing they haven't done in Japan is obsess over house prices and how to unlock money tied up in them. It has nothing to do with social care and this obsession, and how to sell it to a resistant public as necessary and the only way to afford social care, is what's stopping the UK tackle its social care crisis. Ie. Our politicians are trying to solve the wrong problem (over-inflated house prices) for the wrong reason (greed for lower taxes for the better off).

(cJA edit & bold)
I'd no idea about this.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:37 pm

citizenJA wrote:
HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... ics-health
Matt Hancock claims government's failure to provide the social care green paper is Labour's fault.

By "Labour’s fault" do you think he means it's Labour fault for failing to win the last two elections & thus fixing social care for them as the Tories are too incompetent, ideological & tight-fisted to do it?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:40 pm

My writing often bores me but my ideas and thoughts never do.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:41 pm

News about a possible new job for a Tory made me think of this...

via Imgflip Meme Generator

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:42 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:---
The one thing they haven't done in Japan is obsess over house prices and how to unlock money tied up in them. It has nothing to do with social care and this obsession, and how to sell it to a resistant public as necessary and the only way to afford social care, is what's stopping the UK tackle its social care crisis. Ie. Our politicians are trying to solve the wrong problem (over-inflated house prices) for the wrong reason (greed for lower taxes for the better off).
(cJA edit & bold)
I'd no idea about this.

I would just clarify that I don't know whether the Japanese obsess over house prices generally, I just mean they don't appear to view property to be a relevant factor in solving the issue of the funding & providing of social care. Unlike the Tories, who seem completely unable to separate the two, despite lots of people needing care not even being pensioners, let alone property owners.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 5:48 pm

Dearie me...

Claire Fox
@Fox_Claire
·
1h
Replying to
@ViewNorthern
and
@brexitparty_uk
Another bout of literalism: slavery used as example of oppressed turning on oppressors, cf peasants against feudal barons & colonies against empires. Maybe cos I'm a lefty Leaver, I q like that
@brexitparty_uk
going beyond tariffs / trade arguments & using more political imagery

Not sure how she's going to wriggle out of this mess that she's made for herself.

And since when did Farage etc know anything about tariffs and trade?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 6:00 pm

The lesson of history is that successful political movements that have confronted grave injustice have driven people forward through a sense of how we can surmount crisis and offer better lives on the other side. ...Nicky Hawkins argued...last week, Martin Luther King is remembered for proclaiming at the March on Washington “I have a dream” not “I have a nightmare”. We need to collectively outline that dream and decide what our society will look like.

For far too long, progressives – myself included – have talked about the climate emergency and economic justice separately.

If we carry on with this approach, we will not succeed.

- Ed Miliband
Enough of the climate nightmare. It’s time to paint the dream

Wonderful article

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 6:06 pm

Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:---
The one thing they haven't done in Japan is obsess over house prices and how to unlock money tied up in them. It has nothing to do with social care and this obsession, and how to sell it to a resistant public as necessary and the only way to afford social care, is what's stopping the UK tackle its social care crisis. Ie. Our politicians are trying to solve the wrong problem (over-inflated house prices) for the wrong reason (greed for lower taxes for the better off).
(cJA edit & bold)
I'd no idea about this.
I would just clarify that I don't know whether the Japanese obsess over house prices generally, I just mean they don't appear to view property to be a relevant factor in solving the issue of the funding & providing of social care. Unlike the Tories, who seem completely unable to separate the two, despite lots of people needing care not even being pensioners, let alone property owners.

I understood that. I liked the general reminder there are alternatives.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 6:10 pm

Osborne helped block Brown from getting the IMF gig didn't he?

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 6:16 pm

Re the Ed article, absolutely. It's why Caroline Lucas for example is ultimately so disappointing. She doesn't present a dream. She'd say she's just being realistic.

It would be great to have Ed back in the Shadow Cabinet. I wonder what it would take.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 6:17 pm

An ultimately of course environment Minister in the next government.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 7:36 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Re the Ed article, absolutely. It's why Caroline Lucas for example is ultimately so disappointing. She doesn't present a dream. She'd say she's just being realistic.

It would be great to have Ed back in the Shadow Cabinet. I wonder what it would take.

Get people wanting a desired outcome so it's not a battle against them. It doesn't have to be a top-down deprivation exercise.

From the same article

The lesson of history is that successful political movements that have confronted grave injustice have driven people forward through a sense of how we can surmount crisis and offer better lives on the other side.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 7:47 pm

Remember optimism? I was re-reading some notes of mine from fifteen years ago. I had expansive hope while enduring godawful circumstances. It made me cry, remembering what I lived through without causing myself or others harm. It could've warped me. I knew at the time I had choices over my responses to hardship. There was a lot I didn't have control over. I could've disgraced myself. I chose not to.

Reading Miliband's article emphasising dream instead of nightmare reminded me of my optimism.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 8:05 pm

I wouldn't be a fit partner for Mr citizen if I'd done wrong with my eyes open. I'd never have met him. I would've lost opportunities I couldn't foresee. No one is perfect. It's a futile objective. No one will be perfect. If people aren't clinically insane, they're responsible for themselves. Responsibility isn't a dreary thing. It's a great freedom. No burden of lies, no play-acting a part, only one self.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 8:11 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Re the Ed article, absolutely. It's why Caroline Lucas for example is ultimately so disappointing. She doesn't present a dream. She'd say she's just being realistic

She has changed quite a bit in the last five years, and generally not for the better.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 8:18 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Re the Ed article, absolutely. It's why Caroline Lucas for example is ultimately so disappointing. She doesn't present a dream. She'd say she's just being realistic
She has changed quite a bit in the last five years, and generally not for the better.

It's a tough time. She'll rally.

If this is the vision, the “how we get there” question becomes essential. That is the purpose of the cross-party Institute for Public Policy Research’s Environmental Justice Commission that I co-chair with Caroline Lucas and Laura Sandys. We are determined to provide a route map to the new economy, including a just transition for those who will be affected by the end of the fossil fuel economy.

They'll help each other

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Thu 04 Jul, 2019 8:21 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-488 ... nel=social" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

National Trust plans to dump fossil fuel shares