Saturday 13th & Sunday 14th July 2019.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 7:07 am

Morning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48972243" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The difficulty is there's a lot of individual variation."

Indeed.A concept which could be usefully applied Make your own context.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 7:18 am

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ss-britons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

People have the right to identify however they want.

Second indeed of the day ,including "classless""I'm in solidarity with the human race and it's betterment.I refuse to take or more importantly act the ascribed oppressed role.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 7:19 am

As an ex semi employer ,I endeavoured not to oppress.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 8:48 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ols-scheme" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Vanity project': debts pile up for English free schools scheme
Exclusive: £64m has been spent on university technical colleges that have closed

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 8:51 am

Not so free then.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 9:24 am

"What’s disappointed me in my first two weeks in Brussels
A freshman MEP from the British Green Party on what’s wrong with the EU capital."
https://www.politico.eu/article/magid-m ... -brussels/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In my first two weeks as a member of the European Parliament, I've stumbled into a baffling realization.

Next to nobody in Brussels has any clue what the European Union truly stands for — beyond a flag and an anthem — and more crucially, where it is heading. And that includes the EU leaders and senior officials soullessly waddling through the corridors of power.

Magid.

tinybgoat · Post by **tinybgoat** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 9:33 am

https://www.politico.eu/article/us-ramp ... ead-of-g7/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"US pressures France, UK on tech tax proposals ahead of G7
US lawmakers threaten to scuttle a UK trade deal if London tries to tax digital giants."

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 10:23 am

tinybgoat wrote:"What’s disappointed me in my first two weeks in Brussels
A freshman MEP from the British Green Party on what’s wrong with the EU capital."
https://www.politico.eu/article/magid-m ... -brussels/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In my first two weeks as a member of the European Parliament, I've stumbled into a baffling realization.

Next to nobody in Brussels has any clue what the European Union truly stands for — beyond a flag and an anthem — and more crucially, where it is heading. And that includes the EU leaders and senior officials soullessly waddling through the corridors of power.
Magid.

He may be missing the obvious, as most people did in 2016 and subsequently.
The EU is about international trade, the single market which we so wanted to join in the first place, is still maybe 75%-85% of what it does. It's so fundamental, and so technical and obscure, it's strangely easy to miss. The logic of that got them to the euro which in fairness may have been a step too far.
All the sovereignty stuff that people get so exited about is peripheral. Leaving the EU because of it is throwing the trade baby out with sovereignty bathwater.

Everyone who's ever had anything to do with international trade in their work environment knows this and hardly anyone else does.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 10:27 am

In brief chats with the everyday Bruxellois — from cab drivers to my barber — it's clear to me that few know anything about the EU, let alone why they should care. If those working on Parliament’s doorstep are oblivious about what happens inside, you can be damn sure citizens living in the far reaches of our Continent have no idea!

Magid, and that's quite right.

But if he had a chat with people working in a business in Belgium selling to, say, Ireland or Romania, he'd get a different story.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 10:48 am

HindleA wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ss-britons

People have the right to identify however they want.

Second indeed of the day ,including "classless""I'm in solidarity with the human race and it's betterment.I refuse to take or more importantly act the ascribed oppressed role.

A self-employed plumber on £60,000 may think of themselves as working class. A newly qualified teacher on £21,000 may think of themselves as middle class. These labels are not necessarily wrong, whether self-applied or applied by others. The real point is that these labels tell us next to nothing about a person, their cultural or political outlook or how they might vote. The Labour Party is a product of the labour movement and thus does have a role in representing "working people" or, more accurately, people who have no other means to support themselves other than through work. An important element of this is ensuring such people are supported by society when they are not working. This, ultimately, is most of us. Those who seek to define the Labour Party as only for a narrowly defined subset of working people undermine its potential to represent and therefore win the votes of society as a whole, imo.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 10:56 am

gilsey wrote:
In brief chats with the everyday Bruxellois — from cab drivers to my barber — it's clear to me that few know anything about the EU, let alone why they should care. If those working on Parliament’s doorstep are oblivious about what happens inside, you can be damn sure citizens living in the far reaches of our Continent have no idea!
Magid, and that's quite right.

But if he had a chat with people working in a business in Belgium selling to, say, Ireland or Romania, he'd get a different story.

Yes, its strange that he assumes people can't benefit from things they don't know about. It's literally his job to know about this stuff and make sure the people he represents reap the maximum benefit.

The amateur, haphazard quality of Green candidates is why I can't support the Green Party, however much I care about Green issues. It's not entirely their fault, they're a small party, but it's a shame. These comments are ill-thought through and unhelpful.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 10:59 am

Morning all.

Re the above about the EU, Joni had it right "You don't what you've got till it's gone"...

And if there was some overarching narrative then the EUSSR crowd would just point to it triumphantly and claim they were right all along.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 11:20 am

We all know roughly where Andrew Neil stands politically. So that BoJo had such a torrid time with him last night tells its own story.

(in particular the recourse to the "negativity" card - the bottom line is that "optimism" and "belief" never by itself filled a belly or paid a bill)

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 1:28 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... in-cardiff" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Michael Sheen: Why I’m backing Cardiff’s Homeless World Cup

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 1:36 pm

[youtube]IXtDChNB3gc[/youtube]

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 1:40 pm

"Hey look over there! You missed one!"

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 1:48 pm

Willow904 wrote:
gilsey wrote:
In brief chats with the everyday Bruxellois — from cab drivers to my barber — it's clear to me that few know anything about the EU, let alone why they should care. If those working on Parliament’s doorstep are oblivious about what happens inside, you can be damn sure citizens living in the far reaches of our Continent have no idea!
Magid, and that's quite right.

But if he had a chat with people working in a business in Belgium selling to, say, Ireland or Romania, he'd get a different story.
Yes, its strange that he assumes people can't benefit from things they don't know about.
It's literally his job to know about this stuff and make sure the people he represents reap the maximum benefit
---

(cJA edit & colour emphasis)
I emphasised your post, Willow, because it's true and clear as bell.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 1:49 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 2:02 pm

Willow904 wrote: Yes, its strange that he assumes people can't benefit from things they don't know about. It's literally his job to know about this stuff and make sure the people he represents reap the maximum benefit.

The amateur, haphazard quality of Green candidates is why I can't support the Green Party, however much I care about Green issues. It's not entirely their fault, they're a small party, but it's a shame. These comments are ill-thought through and unhelpful.

He may get the hang of it, and in the long term be guilty only of shooting his mouth off too soon.
I shouldn't think there was much call for knowledge of int'l trade when Lord Mayor of Sheffield.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 2:05 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:We all know roughly where Andrew Neil stands politically. So that BoJo had such a torrid time with him last night tells its own story.

(in particular the recourse to the "negativity" card - the bottom line is that "optimism" and "belief" never by itself filled a belly or paid a bill)

One of the few consolations of the current stramash is that the likes of Neil are in a very, very bad place. They know Johnson's not up to it and neither is *unt, just slightly less embarrassing. This is where they are and BJ is in effect rubbing their noses in it.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 6:25 pm

Gone quiet again has it?

howsillyofme1 · Post by **howsillyofme1** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 7:56 pm

gilsey wrote:
tinybgoat wrote:"What’s disappointed me in my first two weeks in Brussels
A freshman MEP from the British Green Party on what’s wrong with the EU capital."
https://www.politico.eu/article/magid-m ... -brussels/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In my first two weeks as a member of the European Parliament, I've stumbled into a baffling realization.

Next to nobody in Brussels has any clue what the European Union truly stands for — beyond a flag and an anthem — and more crucially, where it is heading. And that includes the EU leaders and senior officials soullessly waddling through the corridors of power.
Magid.
He may be missing the obvious, as most people did in 2016 and subsequently.
The EU is about international trade, the single market which we so wanted to join in the first place, is still maybe 75%-85% of what it does. It's so fundamental, and so technical and obscure, it's strangely easy to miss. The logic of that got them to the euro which in fairness may have been a step too far.
All the sovereignty stuff that people get so exited about is peripheral. Leaving the EU because of it is throwing the trade baby out with sovereignty bathwater.

Everyone who's ever had anything to do with international trade in their work environment knows this and hardly anyone else does.

Good evening

Trade may be important and EU trade is critical for us now but the same arguments can be made of the importance of any free trade area...busineeses would love to break down even more barriers if they could I am sure. The EU does an okay job in balancing free trade with rights and regulations though but not convinced they will stay as they are with the continued hegemony of the right.

I sympathise with the point made by the Green MEP that the EU is not very good at demonstrating what it is for and how it helps. A lot if people in UK are actually not that.à happy with the SM as I wasn't back in the 90s and neither were the French or other EU countries at the time. The SM was pushed by Thatcher

The reason I support the EU fundamentally is that I believe in international cooperation not particularly free trade. If the message is that it is mainly there for free trade and to help business then where does climate change fit in? Or ensuring workers rights are not forgotten?

You are not really selling this concept to me, and I am a Remainer!

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 7:59 pm

Kitten no 2 finally got to go outside for the first time today. Doors & windows can now be left open. Yay!

Post by **refitman** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 8:02 pm

Len McCluskey
@LenMcCluskey
I’ve said it today at the Durham Miners Gala so I’ll repeat it here. Attacking a woman going through chemotherapy - @tom_watson
you are a fucking disgrace. @JennieGenSec
2:57 PM · Jul 13, 2019 · Twitter for iPhone

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 8:38 pm

I made some comments on this in the early hours.I endeavour to be an impartial observer.Suffice to say ,if you are not going to be viewed as a disgraceful hypocrite hiding behind a cloak of "moderate/non-extremist"self appellation at least be consistent.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 8:42 pm

Funny enough you can be an extreme arsehole and evidence on a par vileness you attribute to others no matter where you claim to be.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 9:01 pm

A probable repeat.
Scrawled on a toilet wall.
"Hegemonic struggle:trying to finish your crap before your next lecture"

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 9:02 pm

Blame howsillyofme for triggering the memory.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 9:27 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-4895211 ... ssion=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Usual arse about faceness on the "vulnerabilty" line.This isn't a moot point it goes to the heart of "responsibility"

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 13 Jul, 2019 11:50 pm

howsillyofme1 wrote: Good evening

Trade may be important and EU trade is critical for us now but the same arguments can be made of the importance of any free trade area...busineeses would love to break down even more barriers if they could I am sure. The EU does an okay job in balancing free trade with rights and regulations though but not convinced they will stay as they are with the continued hegemony of the right.

I sympathise with the point made by the Green MEP that the EU is not very good at demonstrating what it is for and how it helps. A lot if people in UK are actually not that.à happy with the SM as I wasn't back in the 90s and neither were the French or other EU countries at the time. The SM was pushed by Thatcher

The reason I support the EU fundamentally is that I believe in international cooperation not particularly free trade. If the message is that it is mainly there for free trade and to help business then where does climate change fit in? Or ensuring workers rights are not forgotten?

You are not really selling this concept to me, and I am a Remainer!

I'm not trying to sell it, it's just how it is. I see the EU structures as a more or less credible attempt to impose some kind of democratic control on what could otherwise be rampant capitalism. Workers rights, food standards and the rest are, again more or less, worthy attempts to maintain a level playing field between businesses in different countries.

I also find international cooperation more attractive than the 'neo-liberal project' but could we ever have had the former without the latter?

I think that climate change doesn't fit in well at all, and imo is a massive challenge for the EU because it requires a move away from economic prosperity as the driving force. I can't see the necessary changes being more likely to happen if left to individual nation states though.

Post by **refitman** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 1:48 am

Jeez. The Graun/Observer have gone full batshit over the Labour/AS thing.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 6:41 am

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... nt-scandal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Post by **adam** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 8:23 am

Am I missing something, or is the new line that if the press ever get hold of secret government communications they must be allowed to publish them and any attempt to stop them would be a chilling attack on democracy?

ETA - so can we now have a very large scale data-dump from within the relevant departmens of actual projections and planning for leaving in different scenarios? Seriously. Now.

Post by **adam** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 8:54 am

If you have the odd eight hours to spare for part 1.

[youtube]XoL_tT046tI[/youtube]

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 8:58 am

Lee #FBPE #FBR #FPHD
@Saczak1
·
8h
What's that?

Isabel Oakeshott has been in a relationship with Brexit Party MEP Richard Tice for months?

And she just happens to be the one 'journalist' in the whole world given confidential emails undermining the UK Ambassador to the US?

Just a coincidence, I'm sure

Well quite.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 9:18 am

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... ool-divide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 9:26 am

adam wrote:Am I missing something, or is the new line that if the press ever get hold of secret government communications they must be allowed to publish them and any attempt to stop them would be a chilling attack on democracy?

ETA - so can we now have a very large scale data-dump from within the relevant departmens of actual projections and planning for leaving in different scenarios? Seriously. Now.

"Public interest" is the usual test in such cases isn't it? I don't think a paper has ever been prosecuted before for breaking the official secrets act so it would be a pretty big deal if that happened. I imagine that's due in part, though, because in the past papers have been very careful about decisions to print. Whereas this is pretty borderline, the damage done to British interests is extensive, yet the information revealed is nothing more remarkable than an ambassador going about his job. The "public interest" defence is pretty shaky.

Post by **adam** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 10:15 am

Willow904 wrote:
adam wrote:Am I missing something, or is the new line that if the press ever get hold of secret government communications they must be allowed to publish them and any attempt to stop them would be a chilling attack on democracy?

ETA - so can we now have a very large scale data-dump from within the relevant departmens of actual projections and planning for leaving in different scenarios? Seriously. Now.

"Public interest" is the usual test in such cases isn't it? I don't think a paper has ever been prosecuted before for breaking the official secrets act so it would be a pretty big deal if that happened. I imagine that's due in part, though, because in the past papers have been very careful about decisions to print. Whereas this is pretty borderline, the damage done to British interests is extensive, yet the information revealed is nothing more remarkable than an ambassador going about his job. The "public interest" defence is pretty shaky.

There were a number of attempts in parliament to put a public interest defence into the OSA but they were all defeated. 'Public Interest' is a defence in right to privacy issues and in defamation but not necessarily in terms of confidential government information.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 11:56 am

refitman wrote:Jeez. The Graun/Observer have gone full batshit over the Labour/AS thing.

Always worth remembering here that the Observer is significantly more right wing - and even more anti-Corbyn - than its daily stablemate.

(one of its prominent journos from a few years ago is now trying to become a Tory MP - no surprise there)

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 12:37 pm

I don't know what OSA is.
I did try figuring it out before I asked.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 12:43 pm

adam wrote:If you have the odd eight hours to spare for part 1.

[youtube]XoL_tT046tI[/youtube]

Well worth a watch, even if not all at once

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 12:44 pm

refitman wrote:Jeez. The Graun/Observer have gone full batshit over the Labour/AS thing.

I agree. What bothers me is I'm not better informed after having read the articles. I want to be better informed. I want to know the truth.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 1:27 pm

Do the "vast majority of Labour MPs" know and approve of Andrew Rawnsley's speaking for them about their party?

Post by **refitman** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 1:42 pm

citizenJA wrote:I don't know what OSA is.
I did try figuring it out before I asked.

Official Secrets Act.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 2:09 pm

refitman wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I don't know what OSA is.
I did try figuring it out before I asked.
Official Secrets Act.

Thank you. It seems obvious to me now and I'm a bit embarrassed. I used a search engine and still didn't get it though I provided context. It didn't help matters by becoming interested with different results and forgetting my original quest.

Post by **refitman** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 2:12 pm

citizenJA wrote:
refitman wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I don't know what OSA is.
I did try figuring it out before I asked.
Official Secrets Act.
Thank you. It seems obvious to me now and I'm a bit embarrassed. I used a search engine and still didn't get it though I provided context. It didn't help matters by becoming interested with different results and forgetting my original quest.

NP, took me a minute.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 2:15 pm

citizenJA wrote:
refitman wrote:Jeez. The Graun/Observer have gone full batshit over the Labour/AS thing.
I agree. What bothers me is I'm not better informed after having read the articles. I want to be better informed. I want to know the truth.

Allegations repeated as indisputable facts without supplying facts won't do.

Post by **adam** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 4:49 pm

refitman wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I don't know what OSA is.
I did try figuring it out before I asked.
Official Secrets Act.

Soz, me bng lzy.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 4:53 pm

adam wrote:
refitman wrote:
citizenJA wrote:I don't know what OSA is.
I did try figuring it out before I asked.
Official Secrets Act.
Soz, me bng lzy.

And you can stop that, right now!

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 14 Jul, 2019 5:57 pm

"The Liberals went for those who wore Tory colours and vice versa, and in a few seconds there was a general free fight, though most of the original crowd ran away, and in the confusion that ended, Barrington and Owen got out of the crowd without further molestation."

The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists
Robert Tressell