Saturday 28th & Sunday 29th September 2019

Post by **refitman** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 5:36 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 6:26 am

Morning.
(Argentina v Tonga)

On train/my travels

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 7:04 am

I'm living in Hope,at the moment,anyway.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 8:02 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... gland-32bn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Usual people as a burden narrative.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 10:08 am

Commenting on the proposals, Adam Corlett, senior economic analyst at the Resolution Foundation, said: “Labour has set out some significant reforms, but they sensibly do not amount to actually scrapping universal credit. Now isn’t the time for another huge overhaul of our social security system.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... dit-system" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would normally agree with the above sentiment. Working with what you've got is normally the most efficient and quickest way to make improvements. I don't agree in the case of UC, though.

The first reason is the sheer number of people still on legacy benefits and it's not guaranteed that it would be less disruptive to move them to UC than move UC claimants onto separate benefits.

The second reason is that it's unclear whether the digital technology designed for UC, that Labour appear keen to keep, was ever successfully developed and that the patching up of which isn't basically throwing money down the drain.

The third, and most important reason, is that although some hardship has been caused by incidental choices by the Tories, such as cuts and sanctions, there are also many problems that derive directly from the basic premise of UC of "rolling all benefits into one" that are unfixable if you choose to keep it.

Universal Credit is a bad idea that has been badly executed as well as being used as cover for punitive policy. There is nothing worth salvaging. The problems with free school meals, with confusion over entitlement to free dental care, difficulties of losing all money if there's an error with the claim, having disabled and ill people in the same system as jobseekers......all these problems arise from an ill conceived idea of 'simplifying' that hasn't revealed a single benefit or advantage over the system that it's replacing, whilst introducing a whole host of complications that are improving expensive or even impossible to ameliorate.

If Labour think they can reform it now, I wonder if they will feel the same when they are in power and discover the true extent of dysfunction at heart of this disastrous policy.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 10:47 am

Morning all. Shopping done, football this afternoon (I don't have hopes hope for us though).

Could you ever have thought that Philip Hammond would write something like this before the current crisis in his party?

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:06 am

About this idea that people in the city have shorted £ spectacularly, gambling on hard Brexit on 31 October, Johnson to deliver it.

I wouldn't bet £10 on anything ABdePJ promised.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:10 am

Willow904 wrote: If Labour think they can reform it now, I wonder if they will feel the same when they are in power and discover the true extent of dysfunction at heart of this disastrous policy.

I don't think they can/should really say what they're going to do without seeing what's really going on, I'm actually surprised they've gone this far.

Your second reason is spot on and might be the key to it.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:18 am

gilsey wrote:About this idea that people in the city have shorted £ spectacularly, gambling on hard Brexit on 31 October, Johnson to deliver it.

I wouldn't bet £10 on anything ABdePJ promised.

Crispin Odey is a big mate of the PM's.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:28 am

Then you'd think he'd know better?

Does he think he's the one person Johnson's never lied to? That's a real gamble.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:33 am

gilsey wrote:
Willow904 wrote: If Labour think they can reform it now, I wonder if they will feel the same when they are in power and discover the true extent of dysfunction at heart of this disastrous policy.
I don't think they can/should really say what they're going to do without seeing what's really going on, I'm actually surprised they've gone this far.

Your second reason is spot on and might be the key to it.

I don't think there's any problem with saying whatever happens they'll get rid of sanctions, that's easily done. Ditto ditching two-child limit and benefit cap.

Dropping the online only access and changing to fortnightly payments, though, will unravel UC, as will splitting payments to protect partners from financial abuse. I honestly feel solving these types of issues within the UC framework will lead to a system so convoluted and will cost so much in extra bureaucracy that going back to separate benefits will look easy by comparison.

Edited to add - yes, the IT may be key. If it's as cobbled together as some reports suggest it may be that scrapping UC could save rather than cost money in which case why persevere?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:49 am

gilsey wrote:Then you'd think he'd know better?

Does he think he's the one person Johnson's never lied to? That's a real gamble.

Maybe he's the person who will leave the PM "dead in a ditch" if Johnson doesn't deliver what he wants

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 1:06 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 1:52 pm

Universal credit: Labour pledges to scrap welfare scheme

A future Labour government would scrap universal credit - which merges six benefits into one payment, the party's leader Jeremy Corbyn has announced. (BBC News website)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49855479

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 1:53 pm

Good morfternoon.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 1:56 pm

Posted without comment...

Gwent Police
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Verified account

@gwentpolice
Follow Follow @gwentpolice
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Replying to @EmbarrassedBrit @jessphillips and 9 others
Thank you for your message. We have been made aware of comments made last night in Newport and we are looking into these allegations. Thanks

12:18 PM - 28 Sep 2019

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 2:00 pm

Farage probably did mean cutting numbers of civil servants but right now, language like that is definitely not helpful.

I wonder whether those who highlighted Jess Phillips "I would knife Jeemy Corbyn in the front, not the back" will pick up on this one now?

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 2:10 pm

PorFavor wrote:
Universal credit: Labour pledges to scrap welfare scheme

A future Labour government would scrap universal credit - which merges six benefits into one payment, the party's leader Jeremy Corbyn has announced. (BBC News website)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49855479

[youtube]tVawZiCwn_8[/youtube]

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 5:14 pm

Margaret Hodge has been triggered!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 5:17 pm

Dare one suggest something she may cite as a reason for this?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 5:17 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Farage probably did mean cutting numbers of civil servants but right now, language like that is definitely not helpful.

I wonder whether those who highlighted Jess Phillips "I would knife Jeemy Corbyn in the front, not the back" will pick up on this one now?

Can't say that I've heard the phrase (the one used by Nigel Farage) before. There are lots of "knife" phrases (all, or most, of which would be best avoided in the current climate), and other more well-known phrases or sayings (most of which are violent, admittedly) which would convey what I assume was his meaning. But this choice of phrase strikes me as a bit odd.

Edited to remove an unnecessary "it"

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 6:29 pm

Calls for inquiry into claims Johnson backers benefit from no-deal Brexit

Cabinet secretary urged to look into conflict of interest fears raised by Philip Hammond and Rachel Johnson (Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... it-inquiry

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 7:10 pm

BBC describing Boris Johnson's reception on his arrival at Conservative Conference as "friendly". Is that as good as it gets? Probably less than he'd hoped for - or thinks he's entitled to.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 7:25 pm

PorFavor wrote:BBC describing Boris Johnson's reception on his arrival at Conservative Conference as "friendly". Is that as good as it gets? Probably less than he'd hoped for - or thinks he's entitled to.

Tends to be 'rapturous' so yes, a lot less than he would hope for.

Possible that some take a dim view of him removing the whip from 21 Tory MPs.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 7:56 pm

Hodge is also now 75 and some locally may think its time to give somebody else a go.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 8:27 pm

Johnson ‘whipping up riot fears to avoid Brexit extension’
Labour claims that PM is aiming to invoke emergency powers using the Civil Contingencies Act

Increasingly MPs across the House of Commons believe Downing St is considering using the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, which grants special powers in the event of a national emergency, as a way to override the so-called Benn act, which mandates the prime minister to seek a delay to Brexit if no deal has been struck with Brussels by 19 October.(Observer - my emphasis)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rexit-deal

Edited - to add a "J"

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 8:31 pm

This is scary stuff. A dangerously rogue Prime Minister.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 8:50 pm

Jennifer Arcuri’s mystery £700,000 loan adds to pressure on Johnson

New revelation about Hacker House entrepreneur as prime minister heads to Tory conference
(Observer)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ouse-grant

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 9:03 pm

Its been pretty well established by legal people that if Johnson tried to use the CCA in that way, it would be struck down by the courts almost straight away.

If that is really the "cunning plan", he and Cummings are maybe even more desperate than many of us thought.

And it would also very likely mean his opponents taking to the streets, quite possibly in their millions.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 9:23 pm

Early night for me, everyone.
Goodnight.
love,
cJA

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 9:25 pm

The trouble with the millions taking to the streets is it plays into the civil emergency narrative.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 9:31 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The trouble with the millions taking to the streets is it plays into the civil emergency narrative.

Quite. And many of those millions of people will likely be, by that stage, very angry.

As I said - scary.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 9:39 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The trouble with the millions taking to the streets is it plays into the civil emergency narrative.

In that case, it might well come down to how much of the "deep state" (which includes the army and police) would be willing to back Johnson come what may.

Yes, even admitting a slight possibility of that is somewhat sobering.

There was once a very good alternate history online by Anthony Wells, now a key figure at YouGov - "what if Gordon Banks had played?". From what I recall, there are more than a few possible relevances to what could be about to happen soon

Post by **adam** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 9:54 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:snip If that is really the "cunning plan", he and Cummings are maybe even more desperate than many of us thought. snip

Or (not for the first and not even for the first time recently) are we just back to the thing about a stupid person's idea of clever person.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 10:24 pm

Labour, Scot's Nat and Lib Dem Mps bickering and kicking lumps out of each other right now on Radio 5 about a national unity government.

It's profoundly depressing stuff.

Has to be said the Lib Dem is being the biggest arsehole.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 28 Sep, 2019 11:05 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:Labour, Scot's Nat and Lib Dem Mps bickering and kicking lumps out of each other right now on Radio 5 about a national unity government.

It's profoundly depressing stuff.

Has to be said the Lib Dem is being the biggest arsehole.

I think it went without saying, really. But I catch your drift.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 7:52 am

Given that in the current climate, Corbyn has no chance, what is Labour’s plan?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 9:19 am

CCHQ are trolling Jonathan Ashworth but the wording...

ToryHealth
‏@Toryhealth
Follow Follow @Toryhealth
MoreToryHealth Retweeted Jonathan Ashworth
Hey @JonAshworth - one of these hospitals is going to be...... in your constituency!

Left untouched for decades under the Labour Govt, the @Conservatives are building a new hospital in YOUR patch along with 39 other hospitals across the country.

#CPC19

Wow, I know my memory is failing a bit these days but we had a Labour government in "for decades"?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 9:22 am

Indeed, given the uk press over the last 5 decades, (and indeed some of Labour’s actual thinking) what is the state of the Labour brand these days and is it viable in the long term?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 9:24 am

But this is my point. In groupthink world, reality is irrelevant. So what’s the plan to save the country from itself?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 9:24 am

Or, more to the point, what are the options?

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 9:25 am

Sunday Times still gunning for the PM...this was on the front page.

Jennifer Arcuri ‘told friends of affair with Boris Johnson’

Fresh details have emerged about Boris Johnson’s close relationship with the American ex-model and entrepreneur Jennifer Arcuri as the prime minister faces an unprecedented police investigation into the scandal.

The Sunday Times has been told Arcuri confided to four friends that she was engaged in a sexual affair with Johnson while he was mayor of London. David Enrich, now the finance editor of The New York Times, says he was told of an alleged sexual relationship between the pair by two of the entrepreneur’s friends when he was working for another newspaper; his account corroborates that of other sources who spoke to Arcuri.

Johnson has repeatedly dodged questions about the close friendship but has denied impropriety following revelations in this newspaper last weekend that he…

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 9:48 am

That "40 new hospitals" thing is unravelling quickly...take a look at the way that the BBC headlin for the story has chnaged.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is what it says now.

Government plans billions for hospital projects

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49867376

The six hospital trusts to benefit from the £2.7bn in funding are:

Whipps Cross Hospital, in Leytonstone, east London
Epsom and St Helier Trust
West Hertfordshire Trust
Princess Alexandra Hospital Trust
University Hospitals of Leicester Trust
Leeds Teaching Hospitals Trust.

A further 34 hospitals will receive £100m in initial funding to start developing projects, including Addenbrookes Hospital in Cambridge, the Queen's Medical Centre in Nottingham and the North Manchester General Hospital.

The remaining projects, including up to a dozen smaller rural hospitals, would be completed over the second half of the next decade.

So, not "40 new hospitals" at all then?

I know Whipps quite well and the site is a complete mess and needs sorting out - lots of old buildings barely or not used.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 10:04 am

I wondered what this was about.

Philip Hammond
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Verified account

@PhilipHammondUK
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Usual rubbish in The Sun this morning. I am a big believer in relaxing planning rules to build new homes.
Saj (as Communities Sec) and I (as Chancellor) worked closely together to do this - but were blocked. I wish him greater success with this new initiative.

9:37 AM - 28 Sep 2019

...and it appears to be this.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10022503/ ... evolution/

SAJID Javid always wanted a home-building revolution — only to see it held back by dismal ex-Chancellor Philip Hammond.

Now Sajid runs the Treasury and Hammond isn’t even a Tory.

Good luck on uniting the party guys!

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 10:12 am

tinyclanger2 wrote:Given that in the current climate, Corbyn has no chance, what is Labour’s plan?

He does if the LibDems change their stance.

Post by **refitman** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 10:16 am

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 10:27 am

Sorry but I don’t think he does.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 10:27 am

RogerOThornhill wrote: I know Whipps quite well and the site is a complete mess and needs sorting out - lots of old buildings barely or not used.

Whipps Cross is where the 'Labour activist' with a sick baby was.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 10:29 am

There are methods available for addressing (resource-and-environment-related) conflict in “the Global South”, which I genuinely think might be usefully applied in the UK at this point.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 29 Sep, 2019 10:38 am