Wednesday 9th October 2019
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Wednesday 9th October 2019
Morning all.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 19-october" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
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Melanie Onn was on Newsnight last night, very much on the same page as Flint, saying she'd vote for Johnson's 'deal' if it was agreed with the EU. Can't these people think for themselves? Tories not caring about the GFA is bad enough, from Labour MPs it's beyond dispiriting.Tom King
@tallgeekychap
Replying to
@LittleGravitas
@CarolineFlintMP
and 3 others
It's worse than that. Caroline *thinks* she needs to appease Leave voters, but most Labour MPs in Leave seats do not rely upon Leave voters for their majority. It is a myth that does not reflect electoral reality.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... st-offices" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Yeah, I've not understood Flint's position. She's an experienced MP who'd been in Miliband's shadow cabinet - energy & climate change. My observation may not be relevant. I think I'm implying I'd hoped for better things from an experienced Labour party MP in the cabinet of a former Labour leader I continue respecting. I'm possibly naïve or ignorant in my thinking. I've just remembered Umunna was shadow business secretary in the same cabinet. However, he lacked experienced having only been an MP since 2010.gilsey wrote:
Melanie Onn was on Newsnight last night, very much on the same page as Flint, saying she'd vote for Johnson's 'deal' if it was agreed with the EU. Can't these people think for themselves? Tories not caring about the GFA is bad enough, from Labour MPs it's beyond dispiriting.Tom King
@tallgeekychap
Replying to
@LittleGravitas
@CarolineFlintMP
and 3 others
It's worse than that. Caroline *thinks* she needs to appease Leave voters, but most Labour MPs in Leave seats do not rely upon Leave voters for their majority. It is a myth that does not reflect electoral reality.
edited
correcting my grammar
hopefully
Last edited by citizenJA on Wed 09 Oct, 2019 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Good morning, everyone.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
But its not going to be agreed with the EU as things stand, so this is "virtue signalling" to leave voters.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... call-study" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
". A key driver of vote choice will be how competent each party is perceived to be on Brexit."?
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Alternatively, and as in 2017, once we get into an actual campaign other things turn out to be important as well.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
For logical and other reasons I'm less able to explain (intuition), I'm rather optimistic about Labour's chances of returning to government in the next election.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Alternatively, and as in 2017, once we get into an actual campaign other things turn out to be important as well.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
I like Varadkar. Admittedly, my knowledge of him is concentrated on what he's said and done regarding Brexit. The few others things I know justify my fondness for the man. Read his quote above. That's mature and reasonable, you know?...Leo Varadkar, the Irish taoiseach (PM), told the Irish parliament about the anonymous briefing from Number 10 criticising him. He said:
"To be honest, I don’t want to give much response to anonymous briefings of that nature. I don’t think much of an anonymous briefing whether they come from Downing Street or if they come from my own ranks, quite frankly."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... 3ca7c7741c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
https://www.thersa.org/discover/publica ... are-reform" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No one really knows what social care is and does
This isn’t an understatement. In a Local Government Association survey, 48% of people had no understanding of what the term social care meant.
44% of people surveyed thought it was provided by the NHS. 28% thought it was free at the point of use.
FWIW I fundamentally disagree with the workers' control /burden underpinning bit it does discuss some of the issues and problems of "management".
No one really knows what social care is and does
This isn’t an understatement. In a Local Government Association survey, 48% of people had no understanding of what the term social care meant.
44% of people surveyed thought it was provided by the NHS. 28% thought it was free at the point of use.
FWIW I fundamentally disagree with the workers' control /burden underpinning bit it does discuss some of the issues and problems of "management".
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Equally of course a sea change away from relinquishing control to others' of what once you had.For a very good reason,not doing so ,extends life and quality of.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
A sliding scale if you will ,being in an institition"institionalism"in your own home ,full real choice and control.Thr evidence is indisputable.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
There is nothing socialist about "looking after people"if it removes control.Where the easy fit "exploitative "employers" and angelic workers doesn't sit easy or indeed evidentially,the exploitation can just as easily sit the other way.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Please read the entire article. I don't think a lot of people understand how little most people and their work matter to Tory government. Government essentially lacks enough vested interests making sure people and nation are protected. That's rather unprecedented, I think. Romans wanted to live here after conquering Britain. I don't think they made slaves out of everyone nor did they set about eliminating every local where they stood. Romans invested in public infrastructure and the whole population. What's currently in government don't have to have personal pressure making sure people and nation are okay; they can live where they like and their resources are available globally. It's terrifying.Brexit is the political project of the hard right within the Conservative party, and not its capitalist backers. In fact, these forces were able to take over the party in part because it was no longer stabilised by a powerful organic connection to capital, either nationally or locally.
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The modern British state has distanced itself from the productive economy and is barely able to take an expert view of the complexities of modern capitalism.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... lace-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
(cJA bold)HindleA wrote:https://www.thersa.org/discover/publica ... are-reform
No one really knows what social care is and does
This isn’t an understatement. In a Local Government Association survey, 48% of people had no understanding of what the term social care meant.
44% of people surveyed thought it was provided by the NHS. 28% thought it was free at the point of use.
FWIW I fundamentally disagree with the workers' control /burden underpinning bit it does discuss some of the issues and problems of "management".
What do you mean, please?
Care workers are carrying a huge burden
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The job is tough. The emotional as well as physical burden of home care work can be intense and overlooked.
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This burden is significantly heightened by the ‘time and task’ model of strict accountability. It can hold workers back from helping clients like they’d like, but also from developing a well-paid career – adding financial stress to work ones.“Very long hours for very little pay. I’m in this job for the people who need the care, certainly not the money. It is rewarding and challenging. My family do get affected, especially with late finishes and no pay for travel time.”
- Care worker
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
A very fair point, often overlooked.HindleA wrote:There is nothing socialist about "looking after people"if it removes control.Where the easy fit "exploitative "employers" and angelic workers doesn't sit easy or indeed evidentially,the exploitation can just as easily sit the other way.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
(cJA bold)HindleA wrote:There is nothing socialist about "looking after people"if it removes control.Where the easy fit "exploitative "employers" and angelic workers doesn't sit easy or indeed evidentially,the exploitation can just as easily sit the other way.
All the greater reason for consistently monitored professional standards and fair wages for care workers. They and the people they're caring for deserve nothing less.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Good care workers leaving their profession because it's too much work for too little pay may lead to less experienced and/or outright dangerous people taking their places. It doesn't surprise me there are inappropriate people taking advantage or hurting people needing care.AnatolyKasparov wrote:A very fair point, often overlooked.HindleA wrote:There is nothing socialist about "looking after people"if it removes control.Where the easy fit "exploitative "employers" and angelic workers doesn't sit easy or indeed evidentially,the exploitation can just as easily sit the other way.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
My point is against easy fitism,as an ex semi employer and employee I have witnessed exploitation or attempt at rarely even discussed.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
We had good wages ,it doesn't stop attempts at I am afraid.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
I could only care for people responsibility if I had enough time and fair compensation for doing that job.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Workers' control can mean for their benefit prioritisation.Thete are competing interests which have to be negotiated.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Don't take it personally.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Not everyone is like you.As in everything else on the real World attempt to take advantage.The torturers on so called hospitals eere far better paid than me.The poor wages guff just excuses their scumness as does lack of training,important as they are.That was workers' control,in a horrific way.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
As for State run institutionalism,historical amnesia seems to be common,as in all halycon day revisionisms.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Unless of course you think not deliberately torturing people and knowingly distressing people for own amusement,has to be taught
Last edited by HindleA on Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Nothing I've stated goes against fair wages and conditions.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
"experienced 'may mean set in own ways against change,change that has been hard fought for.I am not being deliberately contentious.
Last edited by HindleA on Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
I can only apologise but scanning the page that did somehow jump out.HindleA wrote:as an ex semi employer and employee
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
We could really have an 'anything goes' election, with somebody winning with a voteshare in the 20s.Damian Green, leader of the One Nation caucus of MPs, says Boris Johnson told him at meeting:
- he will not go into election promising no deal Brexit
- he will not make a pact with Nigel Farage.
"We looked each other in the eye. I accept and believe the reassurances," says Green
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Eg we've always done it this way/we find this is the best way
For whose benefit
For whose benefit
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
We were also at same time the sitting at home doing nothingists and a business as part of the long term economic plan.Rather making my point that such guff is such bullshit.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
The business thing is interesting in classification terms not least when mentioning start ups etc
Despite repeated attempts at informing the end of the "business"I think it still exists.
Despite repeated attempts at informing the end of the "business"I think it still exists.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
We employed people as PA via direct payment/personal budget ,thus a business,if you don't know what I'm waffling about as I often don't myself.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
My point was that care work is typically low paid without progressive increases of pay while increasingly complex, labour-intensive requirements are made of them as the health of those cared for deteriorates. No back up support, no compensation for more time required for safety and other inappropriate expectations demanded of them lead many good care workers to find other work leaving the profession entirely.HindleA wrote:We had good wages ,it doesn't stop attempts at I am afraid.
People needing work may take care work jobs though they're without experience or inclination for care. It's difficult filling positions good care workers leave.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
People aren't compensated appropriately for what they do. Wages and other income are jackass stupid indicators of the worth of a person's contributions. If wages, employment, capitalism and economic system are what we're going to get, how much people are paid for what needs sorting out.HindleA wrote:Not everyone is like you.As in everything else on the real World attempt to take advantage.The torturers on so called hospitals eere far better paid than me.The poor wages guff just excuses their scumness as does lack of training,important as they are.That was workers' control,in a horrific way.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Agreed,in that context propagandising as a burden (even ignoring the misappropriate use of language ie person as a burden)isn't helpful.Nothing I've said is against any of that.In pursuance the most important aspect that should be prioritised must not be ignored,in the us/them simpleness it is.
Last edited by HindleA on Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Or perhaps reframed/underplayed according to.The interests sometimes but far from always "agree".The us/them stuff is particularly more complex/inappropriate in employing directly situations.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Nothing I've stated suggested you did. I originally asked you to explain what you meant you wrote, "I fundamentally disagree with the workers' control /burden underpinning bit...". I quoted from the article you linked from the care worker describing their difficulties. No compensation can reimburse someone for work impossible to safely fulfil.HindleA wrote:Nothing I've stated goes against fair wages and conditions.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
#cja there are reasons as to why the independent living movement arose ,away from "being cared for".Properly financed ,reasonable wages and conditions does not necessarily attend to those fundamentals.Real love relinquishes control as discombobulating ,both ways,as that may be.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
Care work is inherently variable. Caring for others is impossible while set in own ways. Care workers must responsibly respond to often rapidly changing conditions. A situation can go from manageable and safe to additional assistance immediately required. It's not an unreasonable expectation getting it.HindleA wrote:"experienced 'may mean set in own ways against change,change that has been hard fought for.I am not being deliberately contentious.
edited correcting the italicised bit above
Last edited by citizenJA on Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
The interests of the workers,specifically shouldn't be the priority
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
It's a worthwhile conversation we're having. I'm grateful for your time and effort here.HindleA wrote:We employed people as PA via direct payment/personal budget ,thus a business,if you don't know what I'm waffling about as I often don't myself.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
The people and associated burden"narrative appals me.Every single one of us is reliant on others,not being as visible doesn't remove that fact.A circumstantial change led to a reframing of an already existing mutual endeavour,gain as much as supposed loss
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
As ever my main "beef"is the "wrong"starting point.
Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
(cJA bold)HindleA wrote:Agreed,in that context propagandising as a burden (even ignoring the misappropriate use of language ie person as a burden)isn't helpful.Nothing I've said is against any of that.In pursuance the most important aspect that should be prioritised must not be ignored,in the us/them simpleness it is.
Ah. I understand better now. I didn't feel the same about the terminology used ("Care workers are carrying a huge burden") in that article describing difficulties of care work. I understand your dislike of the word; people aren't burdens. No one is a burden. Some work is burdensome.
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Re: Wednesday 9th October 2019
The mythical past of we all looked after each other according to chosen time points /party/political view is equally mythical.
Pto
Pto
Last edited by HindleA on Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.