Wednesday 9th October 2019

Post by **refitman** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 5:41 am

Morning all.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 10:01 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... 19-october" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 10:21 am

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Tom King
@tallgeekychap
Replying to
@LittleGravitas

@CarolineFlintMP
and 3 others
It's worse than that. Caroline *thinks* she needs to appease Leave voters, but most Labour MPs in Leave seats do not rely upon Leave voters for their majority. It is a myth that does not reflect electoral reality.

Melanie Onn was on Newsnight last night, very much on the same page as Flint, saying she'd vote for Johnson's 'deal' if it was agreed with the EU. Can't these people think for themselves? Tories not caring about the GFA is bad enough, from Labour MPs it's beyond dispiriting.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 10:23 am

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... st-offices" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 11:21 am

gilsey wrote:

Tom King
@tallgeekychap
Replying to
@LittleGravitas

@CarolineFlintMP
and 3 others
It's worse than that. Caroline *thinks* she needs to appease Leave voters, but most Labour MPs in Leave seats do not rely upon Leave voters for their majority. It is a myth that does not reflect electoral reality.
Melanie Onn was on Newsnight last night, very much on the same page as Flint, saying she'd vote for Johnson's 'deal' if it was agreed with the EU. Can't these people think for themselves? Tories not caring about the GFA is bad enough, from Labour MPs it's beyond dispiriting.

Yeah, I've not understood Flint's position. She's an experienced MP who'd been in Miliband's shadow cabinet - energy & climate change. My observation may not be relevant. I think I'm implying I'd hoped for better things from an experienced Labour party MP in the cabinet of a former Labour leader I continue respecting. I'm possibly naïve or ignorant in my thinking. I've just remembered Umunna was shadow business secretary in the same cabinet. However, he lacked experienced having only been an MP since 2010.

edited
correcting my grammar
hopefully

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 11:22 am

Good morning, everyone.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 11:40 am

But its not going to be agreed with the EU as things stand, so this is "virtue signalling" to leave voters.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 11:56 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... call-study" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 11:59 am

". A key driver of vote choice will be how competent each party is perceived to be on Brexit."?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 1:16 pm

Alternatively, and as in 2017, once we get into an actual campaign other things turn out to be important as well.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 1:31 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Alternatively, and as in 2017, once we get into an actual campaign other things turn out to be important as well.

For logical and other reasons I'm less able to explain (intuition), I'm rather optimistic about Labour's chances of returning to government in the next election.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 1:35 pm

...Leo Varadkar, the Irish taoiseach (PM), told the Irish parliament about the anonymous briefing from Number 10 criticising him. He said:

"To be honest, I don’t want to give much response to anonymous briefings of that nature. I don’t think much of an anonymous briefing whether they come from Downing Street or if they come from my own ranks, quite frankly."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... 3ca7c7741c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I like Varadkar. Admittedly, my knowledge of him is concentrated on what he's said and done regarding Brexit. The few others things I know justify my fondness for the man. Read his quote above. That's mature and reasonable, you know?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:09 pm

https://www.thersa.org/discover/publica ... are-reform" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No one really knows what social care is and does
This isn’t an understatement. In a Local Government Association survey, 48% of people had no understanding of what the term social care meant.

44% of people surveyed thought it was provided by the NHS. 28% thought it was free at the point of use.

FWIW I fundamentally disagree with the workers' control /burden underpinning bit it does discuss some of the issues and problems of "management".

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:15 pm

Equally of course a sea change away from relinquishing control to others' of what once you had.For a very good reason,not doing so ,extends life and quality of.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:20 pm

A sliding scale if you will ,being in an institition"institionalism"in your own home ,full real choice and control.Thr evidence is indisputable.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:27 pm

There is nothing socialist about "looking after people"if it removes control.Where the easy fit "exploitative "employers" and angelic workers doesn't sit easy or indeed evidentially,the exploitation can just as easily sit the other way.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:33 pm

Brexit is the political project of the hard right within the Conservative party, and not its capitalist backers. In fact, these forces were able to take over the party in part because it was no longer stabilised by a powerful organic connection to capital, either nationally or locally.
---
The modern British state has distanced itself from the productive economy and is barely able to take an expert view of the complexities of modern capitalism.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... lace-world" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Please read the entire article. I don't think a lot of people understand how little most people and their work matter to Tory government. Government essentially lacks enough vested interests making sure people and nation are protected. That's rather unprecedented, I think. Romans wanted to live here after conquering Britain. I don't think they made slaves out of everyone nor did they set about eliminating every local where they stood. Romans invested in public infrastructure and the whole population. What's currently in government don't have to have personal pressure making sure people and nation are okay; they can live where they like and their resources are available globally. It's terrifying.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:42 pm

HindleA wrote:https://www.thersa.org/discover/publica ... are-reform

No one really knows what social care is and does
This isn’t an understatement. In a Local Government Association survey, 48% of people had no understanding of what the term social care meant.

44% of people surveyed thought it was provided by the NHS. 28% thought it was free at the point of use.

FWIW I fundamentally disagree with the workers' control /burden underpinning bit it does discuss some of the issues and problems of "management".

(cJA bold)
What do you mean, please?

Care workers are carrying a huge burden
---
The job is tough. The emotional as well as physical burden of home care work can be intense and overlooked.
---
This burden is significantly heightened by the ‘time and task’ model of strict accountability. It can hold workers back from helping clients like they’d like, but also from developing a well-paid career – adding financial stress to work ones.
“Very long hours for very little pay. I’m in this job for the people who need the care, certainly not the money. It is rewarding and challenging. My family do get affected, especially with late finishes and no pay for travel time.”
- Care worker

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:46 pm

HindleA wrote:There is nothing socialist about "looking after people"if it removes control.Where the easy fit "exploitative "employers" and angelic workers doesn't sit easy or indeed evidentially,the exploitation can just as easily sit the other way.

A very fair point, often overlooked.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:49 pm

HindleA wrote:There is nothing socialist about "looking after people"if it removes control.Where the easy fit "exploitative "employers" and angelic workers doesn't sit easy or indeed evidentially,the exploitation can just as easily sit the other way.

(cJA bold)
All the greater reason for consistently monitored professional standards and fair wages for care workers. They and the people they're caring for deserve nothing less.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:55 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
HindleA wrote:There is nothing socialist about "looking after people"if it removes control.Where the easy fit "exploitative "employers" and angelic workers doesn't sit easy or indeed evidentially,the exploitation can just as easily sit the other way.
A very fair point, often overlooked.

Good care workers leaving their profession because it's too much work for too little pay may lead to less experienced and/or outright dangerous people taking their places. It doesn't surprise me there are inappropriate people taking advantage or hurting people needing care.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:55 pm

My point is against easy fitism,as an ex semi employer and employee I have witnessed exploitation or attempt at rarely even discussed.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:58 pm

We had good wages ,it doesn't stop attempts at I am afraid.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 2:59 pm

I could only care for people responsibility if I had enough time and fair compensation for doing that job.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:00 pm

Workers' control can mean for their benefit prioritisation.Thete are competing interests which have to be negotiated.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:01 pm

Don't take it personally.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:03 pm

Not everyone is like you.As in everything else on the real World attempt to take advantage.The torturers on so called hospitals eere far better paid than me.The poor wages guff just excuses their scumness as does lack of training,important as they are.That was workers' control,in a horrific way.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:14 pm

As for State run institutionalism,historical amnesia seems to be common,as in all halycon day revisionisms.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:18 pm

Unless of course you think not deliberately torturing people and knowingly distressing people for own amusement,has to be taught

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:35 pm

Nothing I've stated goes against fair wages and conditions.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:38 pm

"experienced 'may mean set in own ways against change,change that has been hard fought for.I am not being deliberately contentious.

Post by **adam** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:38 pm

HindleA wrote:as an ex semi employer and employee

I can only apologise but scanning the page that did somehow jump out.

Post by **adam** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:38 pm

Damian Green, leader of the One Nation caucus of MPs, says Boris Johnson told him at meeting:
- he will not go into election promising no deal Brexit
- he will not make a pact with Nigel Farage.
"We looked each other in the eye. I accept and believe the reassurances," says Green

We could really have an 'anything goes' election, with somebody winning with a voteshare in the 20s.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:41 pm

Eg we've always done it this way/we find this is the best way

For whose benefit

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:45 pm

We were also at same time the sitting at home doing nothingists and a business as part of the long term economic plan.Rather making my point that such guff is such bullshit.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:49 pm

The business thing is interesting in classification terms not least when mentioning start ups etc
Despite repeated attempts at informing the end of the "business"I think it still exists.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:51 pm

We employed people as PA via direct payment/personal budget ,thus a business,if you don't know what I'm waffling about as I often don't myself.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 3:54 pm

HindleA wrote:We had good wages ,it doesn't stop attempts at I am afraid.

My point was that care work is typically low paid without progressive increases of pay while increasingly complex, labour-intensive requirements are made of them as the health of those cared for deteriorates. No back up support, no compensation for more time required for safety and other inappropriate expectations demanded of them lead many good care workers to find other work leaving the profession entirely.

People needing work may take care work jobs though they're without experience or inclination for care. It's difficult filling positions good care workers leave.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:00 pm

HindleA wrote:Not everyone is like you.As in everything else on the real World attempt to take advantage.The torturers on so called hospitals eere far better paid than me.The poor wages guff just excuses their scumness as does lack of training,important as they are.That was workers' control,in a horrific way.

People aren't compensated appropriately for what they do. Wages and other income are jackass stupid indicators of the worth of a person's contributions. If wages, employment, capitalism and economic system are what we're going to get, how much people are paid for what needs sorting out.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:03 pm

Agreed,in that context propagandising as a burden (even ignoring the misappropriate use of language ie person as a burden)isn't helpful.Nothing I've said is against any of that.In pursuance the most important aspect that should be prioritised must not be ignored,in the us/them simpleness it is.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:08 pm

Or perhaps reframed/underplayed according to.The interests sometimes but far from always "agree".The us/them stuff is particularly more complex/inappropriate in employing directly situations.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:11 pm

HindleA wrote:Nothing I've stated goes against fair wages and conditions.

Nothing I've stated suggested you did. I originally asked you to explain what you meant you wrote, "I fundamentally disagree with the workers' control /burden underpinning bit...". I quoted from the article you linked from the care worker describing their difficulties. No compensation can reimburse someone for work impossible to safely fulfil.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:19 pm

#cja there are reasons as to why the independent living movement arose ,away from "being cared for".Properly financed ,reasonable wages and conditions does not necessarily attend to those fundamentals.Real love relinquishes control as discombobulating ,both ways,as that may be.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:20 pm

HindleA wrote:"experienced 'may mean set in own ways against change,change that has been hard fought for.I am not being deliberately contentious.

Care work is inherently variable. Caring for others is impossible while set in own ways. Care workers must responsibly respond to often rapidly changing conditions. A situation can go from manageable and safe to additional assistance immediately required. It's not an unreasonable expectation getting it.

edited correcting the italicised bit above

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:20 pm

The interests of the workers,specifically shouldn't be the priority

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:23 pm

HindleA wrote:We employed people as PA via direct payment/personal budget ,thus a business,if you don't know what I'm waffling about as I often don't myself.

It's a worthwhile conversation we're having. I'm grateful for your time and effort here.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:25 pm

The people and associated burden"narrative appals me.Every single one of us is reliant on others,not being as visible doesn't remove that fact.A circumstantial change led to a reframing of an already existing mutual endeavour,gain as much as supposed loss

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:32 pm

As ever my main "beef"is the "wrong"starting point.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:33 pm

HindleA wrote:Agreed,in that context propagandising as a burden (even ignoring the misappropriate use of language ie person as a burden)isn't helpful.Nothing I've said is against any of that.In pursuance the most important aspect that should be prioritised must not be ignored,in the us/them simpleness it is.

(cJA bold)
Ah. I understand better now. I didn't feel the same about the terminology used ("Care workers are carrying a huge burden") in that article describing difficulties of care work. I understand your dislike of the word; people aren't burdens. No one is a burden. Some work is burdensome.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Wed 09 Oct, 2019 4:35 pm

The mythical past of we all looked after each other according to chosen time points /party/political view is equally mythical.

Pto