Saturday 19th & Sunday 20th October 2019

Post by **refitman** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 7:36 am

Morning all.

Rugby nerves

Post by **adam** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 9:01 am

ERG reported to be advising members to vote for the deal.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 10:26 am

"Bercow says he has selected the Letwin amendment for debate, and also Kyle-Wilson amendment to the second motion."

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 10:48 am

Getting a bit pissed off with dissing of forum,there was enough of this bullshit from the" I can't post apart from saying you are shitists"
If you can't say something nice and all that ..

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 10:50 am

Who has been "dissing"?

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 11:34 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... -two-years" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 11:36 am

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesig ... rns-tenant" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 11:39 am

Perhaps,incorrect word,of course it can be self fulfilling as was the case for the leavers creating a safe place for themselves to freely slag off and make here unsafe .That being the case I'll say no more.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 11:49 am

Sky News Breaking
@SkyNewsBreak
Downing Street Source: The Government will delay the vote on Boris Johnson's Brexit deal to Tuesday if MPs approve an amendment which forces the Prime Minister to seek an extension to Brexit

Why?

Anyway, looks like if the Letwin amendment passes, no 10 will have no choice but send an extension request.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 12:08 pm

Lots of tetchiness and grumpiness on twitter today.

Corbyn keeping it simple.

"This deal is worse than the last one."

He's not wrong. He's also right about the staggering lack of detail or forecasts.

If Labour MPs are involved in getting it through in any way and aren't sanctioned at all it's not going to go down well with Labour supporters. There's supporting Brexit and then there's supporting this deal and the latter from someone supposedly on the left is unforgivable.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 12:21 pm

If that happens it will also massively boost the "JeMeRy CrOmByN sEcReTlY wAnTeD hArD bReXiT AlL aLoNg!!!????!!!!!111!!!" narrative already popular with #FBPEers.

Some people saying "if it gets voted down today Johnson will just have a Brexit election". And what do they think will happen if it passes?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 12:33 pm

I would have been sympathetic to Labour MPs who voted for May's deal btw. The backstop created a floor that kept us in alignment with the EU in a lot of important areas, hence why the ERG refused to support it. If you want to respect the referendum and leave, it was a reasonable compromise. The risk of not voting May's deal through is surely now becoming all too clear.

We are teetering on a knife edge. I have everything crossed!

(And how is it the better outcome hinges on an amendment by Oliver Letwin?! We are truly down the rabbit hole).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 12:37 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... rtal-truth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Decontextualused nonsense.The common " died at no age"combatted,as living as long and as best you could,so obviously thoughts of death are involved.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 12:47 pm

Is it fourth time lucky on the watching a Leeds home game front,the "Century "match,or will the hundred percent record of no wins continue?

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 1:56 pm

Watching the debate and Sammy Wilson just seemed to confirm the DUP will vote for the Letwin ammendment.

So that should scupper any vote today.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:00 pm

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Laura Kuenssberg
@bbclaurak
Niche alert - if Letwin amendment passes, it is too late for the govt to pull the main vote on the deal, but it can be 'negatived' - ie if the govt doesn't provide tellers or no one shouts 'aye' on the second call (yes I know) then the vote could just come to a halt

Jesus

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:01 pm

Clear as mud, meanwhile, whether Ken Clarke is actually going to vote for the deal or not.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:14 pm

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Tim Shipman
@ShippersUnbound
NEW: If Letwin passes government will step up No Deal preparations

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:15 pm

refitman wrote:Morning all.

Rugby nerves

Even more so after seeing the ABs.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:17 pm

May's going to vote for it although 'no Prime Minister of the UK could'. She's not PM any more so that makes it ok?

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:21 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Clear as mud, meanwhile, whether Ken Clarke is actually going to vote for the deal or not.

Sadly he said he would.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:29 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Clear as mud, meanwhile, whether Ken Clarke is actually going to vote for the deal or not.
Sadly he said he would.

But...but...GNU leader to take us away from Brexit??!?!? Swinson promised!

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:32 pm

Jonathan Lis
@jonlis1
Any time you entertain the slightest flicker of sympathy for May at how the sworn enemy she rehabilitated then destroyed her, repackaged her deal by selling out the Unionists and now gloats he can achieve what she never could, her own words and actions snuff it out completely

FTAOD I'm not suggesting anyone here feels a flicker of sympathy for May.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:42 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Clear as mud, meanwhile, whether Ken Clarke is actually going to vote for the deal or not.
Sadly he said he would.

Peston (yes I know) seems to think it was conditional.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:43 pm

Good afternoon, everyone.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:52 pm

Thank fuck for that.

A stay of execution.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:59 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:Thank fuck for that.

A stay of execution.

Agreed.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 2:59 pm

Johnson still clearly hoping that he can dodge the Benn act in some way, but how?

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 3:27 pm

Ok I freely admit I have no firm idea of what is going on now.

So Johnson's going to ignore the law then bring back the vote on Monday?

Is that right?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 3:31 pm

AIUI (and don't stake your life on that) apparently Letwin still applies even if Johnson does that successfully.

This deal will now be subjected to a level of scrutiny inside the Commons (and who knows, outside it if we are lucky) that it wouldn't have been had it got waved through today.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 3:47 pm

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Rafael Behr
@rafaelbehr
I'm guessing Johnson will send a surly Benn act letter but wants a few hours of 'MPs spoil Brexit again' headlines first. Deadline is 11pm

Not sure why Boris pulled the meaningful vote. I think it could have passed with the Letwin amendment as security. Unless MPs won't trust it until Johnson has actually fulfilled it, in which case he only has his own lying, untrustworthy ass to blame.

More time to assess the details are unlikely to improve its appeal, I suspect.

What a carry on.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 3:53 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:AIUI (and don't stake your life on that) apparently Letwin still applies even if Johnson does that successfully.

Agreed and Letwin reiterated that. I'm completely flummoxed as to what the government think they're playing it. A vote on Monday will be as meaningless as one held today and if, as the conservatives on Twitter are now saying, Johnson's not going to 'ask for a delay' he will unquestionably be breaking the law.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 3:56 pm

Willow904 wrote: More time to assess the details are unlikely to improve its appeal, I suspect

You don't say

It was pretty transparent why Johnson wanted to bounce MPs into supporting it today, no questions asked.

(first Saturday sitting since the Falklands invasion FFS)

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 4:02 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Peston (yes I know) seems to think it was conditional.

Had a trawl back through the Guardian live blog and they have Ken Clarke saying 'We should support this deal' which is what I remember. His condition seemed to be that the Letwin amendment was passed though it's so far back in the fog of time now I'm not 100% sure on that.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 4:06 pm

Given the general confusion and apparent shenanigans, can I just confirm that Johnson's plan was to get approval for his deal so he avoids the Benn act and doesn't need to ask for an extension, only for the deal to then not get ratified in time and we leave with no deal on 31st Oct by default? Because if he wants to leave with his deal the Letwin amendment isn't stopping him, he probably has the numbers and it can still be done, if it ever could be, by 31st October, so there is no reason for this petulance over asking for an extension.

Of course, in reality, it was probably never possible to complete a deal in time and as we have already observed the media playing along with the charade has left the public woefully uninformed on the true nature of what's happening right now. I think they might understand Johnson breaking the law, though. I think he's going to have to write that letter.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 4:09 pm

Unless, of course, someone else writes the letter for him....

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 4:37 pm

I don't think any extension will be a short one.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 4:39 pm

Willow904 wrote:---
Of course, in reality, it was probably never possible to complete a deal in time and as we have already observed the media playing along with the charade has left the public woefully uninformed on the true nature of what's happening right now. I think they might understand Johnson breaking the law, though. I think he's going to have to write that letter.

(cJA edit)
Yep.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 4:45 pm

Letwin amendment...
---
This withholds approval of the prime minister’s deal until the legislation to enact it – the EU withdrawal bill – is passed.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/li ... 8d1cb4eb89" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How is it possible government consider this a problem?

Post by **adam** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 4:48 pm

He's made 'solemn binding undertakings' to the Scottish courts to comply with the law on this. The case is listed back in Court for monday in case he hasn't complied...

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 4:49 pm

Ok let's try and make some sense of this.

What do we actually know?

Johnson has to ask for an extension from the EU by 11 tonight or he'll be in breach of the law and the government will find themselves in court on Monday.

Any vote on his deal, regardless of whether he respects the Benn act or not, will continue to be subject to the Letwin amendment and will therefore be meaningless until the amendment's conditions are satisfied.

By law we cannot leave the EU on Oct 31'st unless the EU refuse to grant an extension. If Johnson does refuse to ask for an extension it can be requested by the Scottish court or the speaker.

What might we know?

Bercow might follow his own precedent and refuse to allow the government to bring the same motion for a vote on Monday.

The EU might offer us an extension. I suspect they would huff and puff before agreeing as grudgingly as possible.

What don't we know?

Pretty much everything else.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 4:53 pm

Willow904 wrote:Unless, of course, someone else writes the letter for him....

Now being speculated that could indeed be the case.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 5:20 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
Willow904 wrote:Unless, of course, someone else writes the letter for him....
Now being speculated that could indeed be the case.

However the Benn act specifies the letter has to be from and signed by Johnson.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 5:44 pm

Heh, DUP now indicating/threatening that they could support a second referendum.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 5:54 pm

Halle-bloody-loojah

"Hunter giving me a thumbs up rather than biting my legs"

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 6:19 pm

Have a nice night folks now we can relax a bit.

Off to some goth burlesque.

And no I'm not performing.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 6:38 pm

Afternoon all.

Apparently there was a pro-Brexit march in Manchester.

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There's a video in the replies that shows that not many could bothered.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 10:19 pm

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 10:50 pm

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/17/council- ... ito=social" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Unquestionably unacceptable ,that is of course unless you ascribe of less worth.

https://www.eastrenfrewshire.gov.uk/composition" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 19 Oct, 2019 10:53 pm

Johnson trying silly tricks with the letter signing, I see.

Oh, and PTO.