Thursday 24th October 2019

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HindleA
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Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by HindleA »

Morning


https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/201 ... 0849D9CEB0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... iest-place" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... led-people" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... to-give-up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by HindleA »

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpoli ... trategies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by gilsey »

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/10/ ... defeat-it/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Only if the opposition parties accept that Boris Johnson has now defined Brexit can it unite to defeat his deal, writes Phil Syrpis (University of Bristol). Trying to redefine the terms of the deal will exasperate the public and probably end in failure. The path to remain lies in a second referendum or general election.
I've only just got round to reading this, Brexit moves so fast it's a couple of days out of date but he's updated it on twitter this morning.
I think he's right, unfortunately I can't see the opposition parties agreeing.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Labour have been calling for a GE, to allow the people to place their verdict on PM Johnson for months. But, in the last weeks, they have rowed back. There are good reasons for this.

They wanted to ensure that no deal (on Oct 31) was taken off the table. They now want an extension to be granted. By the end of tomorrow, in all likelihood, it will be.

What further reasons are there for delay? There are a range of arguments canvassed. They want Johnson to fail to steer his WAB through the HoC. They want to fracture the latest outbreak of Tory unity

The end goal is unclear. Would it be to try to ensure that Johnson's deal passes, but, eg, with a CU commitment in the WAB; or with a referendum condition? Or would it be to call for a GE 'soon', once Johnson's failures become more manifest?

The risks are huge. The amendments they support may fall. Tory unity may be preserved. The deal may pass through the HoC unscathed, or pretty much unscathed.

Alternatively, they may get some amendments through the House. What then? Johnson may accept them, and deliver a 'softer' Brexit. Or he may accept them fully intending to row back in the aftermath of a GE win. Or he may reject them, and we will be where we are now.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Morning all.

Interesting article from John Gray in the NS. I've read it once but it needs to be read again to adsorb it all I think.

The closing of the conservative mind: Politics and the art of war

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/u ... nd-art-war
Since liberals exculpate themselves from any responsibility for this situation, it is only to be expected that they should pin the blame on an ideological takeover on the right. My own earlier work may have played a minor role in shaping this curious view. In The Undoing of Conservatism, a pamphlet published by the Social Market Foundation in 1994, I argued that conservative thinking had become an unstable mix of neoliberal economics with cultural traditionalism. The effect of free markets is to subvert inherited ways of life. The restless mobility of capital and labour makes any strong attachment to a particular place or company dysfunctional. An unceasing stream of new technologies undermines life-long careers, while the privileging of choice in the market promotes a transactional view of human relations throughout society. Friedrich Hayek and his followers promoted an ideology in which economic life could be a vortex of creative destruction while communal, familial and personal life remained governed by traditional norms.
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PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

gilsey wrote:https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/10/ ... defeat-it/
Only if the opposition parties accept that Boris Johnson has now defined Brexit can it unite to defeat his deal, writes Phil Syrpis (University of Bristol). Trying to redefine the terms of the deal will exasperate the public and probably end in failure. The path to remain lies in a second referendum or general election.
I've only just got round to reading this, Brexit moves so fast it's a couple of days out of date but he's updated it on twitter this morning.
I think he's right, unfortunately I can't see the opposition parties agreeing.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Labour have been calling for a GE, to allow the people to place their verdict on PM Johnson for months. But, in the last weeks, they have rowed back. There are good reasons for this.

They wanted to ensure that no deal (on Oct 31) was taken off the table. They now want an extension to be granted. By the end of tomorrow, in all likelihood, it will be.

What further reasons are there for delay? There are a range of arguments canvassed. They want Johnson to fail to steer his WAB through the HoC. They want to fracture the latest outbreak of Tory unity

The end goal is unclear. Would it be to try to ensure that Johnson's deal passes, but, eg, with a CU commitment in the WAB; or with a referendum condition? Or would it be to call for a GE 'soon', once Johnson's failures become more manifest?

The risks are huge. The amendments they support may fall. Tory unity may be preserved. The deal may pass through the HoC unscathed, or pretty much unscathed.

Alternatively, they may get some amendments through the House. What then? Johnson may accept them, and deliver a 'softer' Brexit. Or he may accept them fully intending to row back in the aftermath of a GE win. Or he may reject them, and we will be where we are now.
Thanks for sharing this.

My own instincts are that the opposition parties will have to limp on like this until 1 November.

Of course 31 October has no hallowed status at all in this context. But Johnson has given the date huge significance. There is one thing that every single voter in the land will understand. Johnson said he would rather die in a ditch than be PM of a UK still in the EU on 1 November.

Even LauraK will find it hard to resist "Prime Minister, you said you would rather die in a ditch....".
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by gilsey »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote: Thanks for sharing this.

My own instincts are that the opposition parties will have to limp on like this until 1 November.

Of course 31 October has no hallowed status at all in this context. But Johnson has given the date huge significance. There is one thing that every single voter in the land will understand. Johnson said he would rather die in a ditch than be PM of a UK still in the EU on 1 November.

Even LauraK will find it hard to resist "Prime Minister, you said you would rather die in a ditch....".
I have no problem with 1 Nov, my worry is that they'll limp on like this indefinitely.

If the EU gives an extension to 31 Jan, there's only one chance for a GE and that's immediately.
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AnatolyKasparov
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

But we are soon going to reach the time when an election this year is impractical.

The EU would almost certainly extend A50 further to allow for one in early 2020, if it comes to that.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

From AS.
There’s no mention of the Withdrawal Agreement Bill in the House of Commons business for next week - which has just been read out by the leader of the House, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

There’s also no mention of the Fixed Term Parliament Act however. So, no election vote for now… unless there’s an emergency statement later on.
I can't see any enthusiasm for holding an election this side of Christmas. And from earlier.
As reported by the Guardian earlier this month - and by the Times today - electoral officials are facing logistical issues as authorities seeking to hire venues find that some are already booked up for nativity plays and pre Christmas venues.
So, not this year and almost certainly not then until mid Feb at the earliest I would guess.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Nice little spat going on between CCHQ and the former Chancellor but one.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
George Osborne

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I think you’ll find the team @EveningStandard know the difference between a bill passing its second reading in the Commons and a bill passing Parliament. I know it’s been a while since the latter happened, but I’m happy to come in and explain how it’s done
:rofl:
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PaulfromYorkshire
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

What have we come to when Osborne looks like a class act?
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by citizenJA »

Good afternoon, everyone.
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What have we come to when Osborne looks like a class act?
In his own highly twisted and malevolent way, he was.

Even though his wheezes often backfired Cummings-style, he was one of the few Tories with a genuine sense of strategy.
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by citizenJA »

RogerOThornhill wrote:From AS.
There’s no mention of the Withdrawal Agreement Bill in the House of Commons business for next week - which has just been read out by the leader of the House, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

There’s also no mention of the Fixed Term Parliament Act however. So, no election vote for now… unless there’s an emergency statement later on.
I can't see any enthusiasm for holding an election this side of Christmas. And from earlier.
As reported by the Guardian earlier this month - and by the Times today - electoral officials are facing logistical issues as authorities seeking to hire venues find that some are already booked up for nativity plays and pre Christmas venues.
So, not this year and almost certainly not then until mid Feb at the earliest I would guess.
Don't be fooled. Tory government adore emergency statements and has no compunction turfing out scheduled nativity plays for election purposes.
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by citizenJA »

AnatolyKasparov wrote:
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:What have we come to when Osborne looks like a class act?
In his own highly twisted and malevolent way, he was.

Even though his wheezes often backfired Cummings-style, he was one of the few Tories with a genuine sense of strategy.
(cJA bold)
Yes.
gilsey
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by gilsey »

RogerOThornhill wrote: So, not this year and almost certainly not then until mid Feb at the earliest I would guess.
So, another extension needed and the same 'no deal' jeopardy, unless they pass Johnson's bill, deja vu all over again.

The horror.
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by HindleA »

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... bbying-job" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

gilsey wrote:
RogerOThornhill wrote: So, not this year and almost certainly not then until mid Feb at the earliest I would guess.
So, another extension needed and the same 'no deal' jeopardy, unless they pass Johnson's bill, deja vu all over again.

The horror.
Until an election sorts it one way or another......
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Quite.

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I think we're beginning to realise that the government wasn't trying to rush through the WAB just to meet a self-imposed deadline but because it realised it would have terrible trouble standing up to detailed scrutiny. Not gone all Pete Tong quite yet, but beginning to unravel.
Truly amazing that after 4 years MPs were being asked to rush through something the government had said before that it had no intention of doing.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

The issue of NI isn't going to go away any time soon...

Boris Johnson Raised The Issue Of Northern Ireland Export Forms With Jean-Claude Juncker. And Then Agreed To Them.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardell ... aretwitter
Boris Johnson personally raised the controversial issue of businesses having to fill in export forms on goods moving between Great Britain and Northern Ireland in a phone call with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker on the morning the Brexit deal was agreed, BuzzFeed News has learned.

Juncker insisted that the matter could not be renegotiated. Shortly afterwards, in a follow-up call, Johnson agreed the deal, thereby accepting the need for the forms.

The revelation, confirmed by two separate sources, shows the prime minister was fully aware that the issue of export forms would be problematic back home, but signed it off anyway in order to secure the agreement with the EU.
"Phew, at least the issue of reinstating a border between NI and Eire has gone way...Hang on..."
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

So Laura K gets invited into No 10 for a hastily arranged interview and now this...
Mikey Smith
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Several government sources now advising against making plans for this evening.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

12th December.

Oh joy...if it happens of course.
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Willow904
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by Willow904 »

My husband was saying just the other day he'd like a Labour government for Christmas....
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by AnatolyKasparov »

There hasn't been a December GE in this country since 1918, there's a reason for that.

Cynical to suggest the Tories are hoping for a lower turnout and to benefit from that?
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

Worth remembering that it is quite possible for the PM to lose his own seat...
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by Willow904 »

I think that's on my husband's wish list as well!
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by gilsey »

What did Ken Loach do to deserve the QT panel tonight. Good luck sky.
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

QS passes by 16.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

What on earth has this country become when this is the thinking by a majority of people?

Most voters believe violence against MPs 'is price worth paying' over Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... for-brexit
Most leave voters who took part in the Future of England study thought violence towards MPs was a “price worth paying” for Brexit to be delivered – 71% in England, 60% in Scotland and 70% in Wales.

The majority of remain voters felt that potential violence was worth it if it meant we would stay in the EU – 58% in England, 53% in Scotland and 56% in Wales.
:roll:
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by citizenJA »

2019 Future of England Survey
conducted by YouGov
Cardiff University
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/170 ... -the-union" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Key findings from the 2019 Future of England Survey...

- Most Leave voters across all three countries think violence towards MPs is a ‘price worth paying’ for Brexit - 71% in England, 60% in Scotland and 70% in Wales.
- The majority of Remain voters across all three countries think violence towards MPs is a ‘price worth paying’ to Remain - 58% in England, 53% in Scotland and 56% in Wales.
- A majority of Remain voters across all three countries think protests in which members of the public are badly injured are a ‘price worth paying’ to stop Brexit and remain in the EU - 57% in England, 56% in Scotland and 57% in Wales.
- Even larger majorities of Leave voters in all three countries think protests in which members of the public are badly injured are a ‘price worth paying’ to achieve Brexit - 69% in England, 62% in Scotland and 70% in Wales.
- Majorities in England, Scotland and Wales think that violence towards MPs and violent protests in which people are badly injured is ‘likely to occur’ if Brexit takes place.
(cJA bold)
I've not yet looked at the data collection instruments linked to the study
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citizenJA
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by citizenJA »

https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets ... Oct-AH.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Disturbing questions asked.
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

David Allen Green


@davidallengreen
1h1 hour ago
More
Brexiters!

The people knew what they were voting for a fixed-term parliament until 2022 in the 2017 general election

Why are you defying the Will of The People by forcing them to vote again, just because you think the last result was wrong?
:D
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by PaulfromYorkshire »

Little things but I note Ben Bradshaw again gives Corbyn real praise.

He's "played a blinder" in asking Labour MPs to abstain on Johnson's call for an election.
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by citizenJA »

Goodnight, everyone.
love,
cJA
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RogerOThornhill
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Re: Thursday 24th October 2019

Post by RogerOThornhill »

I know Sky watches QT so we don't have to but suffering that whiny ill-informed under-qualified gobshite Kate Andrews really does go way beyond the call of duty.

You have my sympathy...
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