Friday 13th December 2019

Post by **refitman** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 6:47 am

Morning all.

Post by **refitman** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 7:22 am

Field, Austin, Leslie, Umuna, Swinson gone, so there is that.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 8:06 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng ... ves-tories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Islands of tolerance and decency in a sea of ignorance and wealth

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 8:12 am

For Tories/Brexit 14,547,937
Against Tories/Brexit 16,064,789
Others 1,302,503
So again, majority of voters get no say.

Our system has to change. Saying it can’t happen will certainly ensure that that is so.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 8:14 am

The advantage of living in a safe Tory seat is the lack of local disappointment. Labour came second as expected (by me, at least) despite claims from the Libdems only they could win here and Labour and Libdems together didn't equal Rees-Mogg's total, again as I expected, so no tactical voting dilemmas for me. I'm very sorry for anyone who tactically voted in vain, it's a horrible feeling as I remember well from 1992. Indeed, it seems we're doomed to relive the 90s in reverse, a wasted 5 years under Tories obsessed with Europe only with the Eurosceptics in charge instead of Major.

Post by **adam** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 8:15 am

There's something quietly fitting about this fucking awful decade ending in this way.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 8:38 am

refitman wrote:Field, Austin, Leslie, Umuna, Swinson gone, so there is that.

And the Brexit Party getting zero seats.

Whoever runs QT must be gutted - how do they get Farage on now with results like that?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 9:02 am

From the G:

However, on the fruit stall next door there was cause for celebration. Eugene Koziol, 77, originally from Poland, and his son Darren, who was born in the UK, both voted Conservative. He said:

Most people here voted to leave and for the Conservatives because immigration is out of control. This is a really underprivileged area- one of the poorest boroughs in the whole of England- and there are lots of issues and people feel immigration has been one of the causes of that ...

People also couldn’t vote for someone like Corbyn because his policies were like a fairy story and people have got so fed up with Brexit and they just want it done.

I was a bit worried about that during the campaign, that Labour may be rejected as "too good to be true" but I doubt it made a material difference. It mainly seems to have been about immigration and Labour could never fight that. Labour's core values, especially under Corbyn, are the antithesis of what leave voters wanted. The party that made Diane Abbott shadow home secretary had no hope of attracting leave voters concerned about immigration. That's not a strategic mistake or Labour "ignoring the concerns of working class voters", it's the culmination of a Labour party that has evolved into a progressive, outward looking, environmentally aware party of the 21st century, while many of its traditional voters have not. Labour needs to believe in its own transformation and strive to attract voters based on these basic progressive principles, not on class or location, as the Tories have proved today that when it comes to English nationalist, anti-immigrant sentiment, they are always going to outdo Labour.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 9:11 am

Quite.

Matt Haig
‏
Verified account

@matthaig1
8m8 minutes ago
More
People don’t vote for where they are at. They vote for where they want to be. Sadly, a lot of people want to be the few, not the many.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 10:46 am

Thank you.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 11:42 am

Willow904 wrote:That's not a strategic mistake or Labour "ignoring the concerns of working class voters", it's the culmination of a Labour party that has evolved into a progressive, outward looking, environmentally aware party of the 21st century, while many of its traditional voters have not. Labour needs to believe in its own transformation and strive to attract voters based on these basic progressive principles, not on class or location, as the Tories have proved today that when it comes to English nationalist, anti-immigrant sentiment, they are always going to outdo Labour.

Yes.

I suppose it's inevitable that there'll be horrible Labour infighting after such a defeat but imo history will judge that nothing they could have done would have changed the outcome significantly. One side's prepared to jettison all our conventions and their own principles and morals, and the other isn't. As long as there's nobody to call them out the result's inevitable.

Which makes it sound as if they ever had any principles or morals, which they clearly didn't.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 11:44 am

I don't follow David Allen Green now but he often appears on my timeline, he said last night it's not the lying, it's that people want to be lied to and unless/until that changes, nothing else will change.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 11:48 am

I'd also like to repeat what I said earlier - lots of people are going to need a new narrative when everything's not all Corbyn's fault any more.

The sun is shining and we're going to Whitby for fish and chips, I hope the rest of you can also find something to do to make you feel a bit better.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 12:09 pm

Yes, I just had a look at DAG for the first time in ages and this stood out. And he is hardly a Remoaner.

David Allen Green
‏

@davidallengreen
6h6 hours ago
MoreDavid Allen Green Retweeted David Allen Green
You have now got the Brexit you deserve

Not the Brexit you need or want

But after three-and-a-half years of Brexit chaos and calamity in plain sight, voters could not have known what they were voting for

And this is how they voted

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 1:02 pm

refitman wrote:Field, Austin, Leslie, Umuna, Swinson gone, so there is that.

Jo Swansong.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 1:04 pm

Good morfternoon.

Post by **adam** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 1:07 pm

I haven't had a single other member of staff here start a conversation about the election at any point since it was called. If there is one thing I find a little heartening today, it's the fact that everywhere I've gone today there are students talking about it, usually angrily, despairingly or sadly, but talking about it. I've given up trying not to join in.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 1:47 pm

How long has the guardian been blue? Could have sworn yesterday it was red.

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 2:32 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:How long has the guardian been blue? Could have sworn yesterday it was red.

Printed edition has been blue for a long while - possibly when they went to the Berliner-size.

Post by **adam** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 2:34 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:How long has the guardian been blue? Could have sworn yesterday it was red.

Printed edition has been blue for a long while - possibly when they went to the Berliner-size.

To be fair it was very blue yesterday with a very wide blue banner at the top of the front page.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 2:38 pm

Then am confusing G and Inde
Stand down

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 2:40 pm

Or rather my brain is

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 2:40 pm

It wasnt’ me gov, it was my brain.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 2:48 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/ ... lin-crummy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This appealed to me for some reason

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 2:50 pm

Potential Labour leaders?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 3:20 pm

So is Brexit “done” yet?

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 3:22 pm

I'm not even sure who's still a Labour MP at the moment!

Having said that, I think Angela Rayner survived and she has definitely grown on me over time - so that's the kiss of death for her chances I suspect!

FWIW I doubt I would have picked "Red Ed" myself back in 2010, yet the younger Miliband is still my favourite Labour leader to date, so I will try not to rush to any judgements.

AFinch · Post by **AFinch** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 3:23 pm

Good afternoon.

Back from the dead, as it were. This is Gary Younge on the result.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -136556812

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 3:33 pm

Willow904 wrote:I'm not even sure who's still a Labour MP at the moment!

Having said that, I think Angela Rayner survived and she has definitely grown on me over time - so that's the kiss of death for her chances I suspect!

FWIW I doubt I would have picked "Red Ed" myself back in 2010, yet the younger Miliband is still my favourite Labour leader to date, so I will try not to rush to any judgements.

Agree (apart from the not initially picking him bit)!

(I think Laura Pidcock lost her seat (North West Durham), which I think was a pity. However, the awful Caroline Flint (don't know, don't care) won't be missed by me.)

Edited to add - I agree about Angela Rayner, too. I don't think I made that clear.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 3:35 pm

I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 3:48 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.

Yes.

Forget from where - but saved this earlier :

with a basic PR (percentage share) of seats they should have :

Conservative 43.60% 283 (364)
Labour 32.20% 209 (203)
Liberal Democrat 11.50% 75 (11)
Scottish National Party 3.90% 25 (48)
Green 2.70% 18 (1)
Brexit 2% 13 (0)

I'd disagree with the SNP figure - a regional split would have to be worked in.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 3:53 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.

Ed Miliband offered a constitutional convention in 2015 to look at that but the nation chose to explore our relationship with the EU instead and then went on to reject AV as well.

If people won't vote for it and parties that win power through FPTP won't offer it, I just don't see how you achieve it.

At least New Labour went some way in reforming the Lords when they had the chance as the upper chamber is going to be the only check on Johnson's power for some time to come.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 3:53 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.

But that won't happen unless the Tories lose, I agree that 1997 was a significant missed opportunity there.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 4:42 pm

Willow904 wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.
Ed Miliband offered a constitutional convention in 2015 to look at that but the nation chose to explore our relationship with the EU instead and then went on to reject AV as well.

If people won't vote for it and parties that win power through FPTP won't offer it, I just don't see how you achieve it.

At least New Labour went some way in reforming the Lords when they had the chance as the upper chamber is going to be the only check on Johnson's power for some time to come.

AV was too new and unknown then - it's also quite complicated and (in my view) a bit shit. People now are more familiar with other models (working abroad more), and every good idea is rejected in the first instance. Obviously people won't spontaneously vote for it - it's a movement that needs to built like for any other social change.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 4:43 pm

If the view is always 'it can't happen', then of course it can't. It's about building so much demand for it that change is created - not given.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 4:48 pm

In my view PR is more likely than Labour winning another GE. The party can no longer accommodate the range of views it seeks to encompass. Brexit has demonstrated that all too clearly, (starting with Gisela Stuart being free to co-lead Leave).

It's almost identical to the environmental movement fighting big companies. The companies have a simple bottom line in common (money) - the campaigning organisations meanwhile fight about small (but to them insolvable) differences. Only when they build working coalitions do the large and diverse number of small organisations stand a chance against the small and uniform number of large organisations.

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 5:22 pm

Some great commentary on here today. Thanks. I feel a bit better

Post by **PaulfromYorkshire** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 5:24 pm

Suspect I won't be around that much for the next few weeks. Need to detach myself from email and Twitter for a bit....

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 5:49 pm

Lost Soul wrote:
tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.

Yes.

Forget from where - but saved this earlier :

with a basic PR (percentage share) of seats they should have :

Conservative 43.60% 283 (364)
Labour 32.20% 209 (203)
Liberal Democrat 11.50% 75 (11)
Scottish National Party 3.90% 25 (48)
Green 2.70% 18 (1)
Brexit 2% 13 (0)

I'd disagree with the SNP figure - a regional split would have to be worked in.

Con/LD Coalition 2.0

Post by **refitman** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 5:52 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Suspect I won't be around that much for the next few weeks. Need to detach myself from email and Twitter for a bit....

I feel you Paul. Have a good Xmas.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 5:55 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Suspect I won't be around that much for the next few weeks. Need to detach myself from email and Twitter for a bit....

I've just realised that I've thanked you for announcing that you may not be around much! Not what I meant to convey at all.

Interesting . . .

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 6:19 pm

PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Suspect I won't be around that much for the next few weeks. Need to detach myself from email and Twitter for a bit....

Same here, this has been pretty brutal.

Btw it has been noted that a few trolls alighted in the past 24 hours

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 9:15 pm

Barring the basic factual error and his claim of some kind of predictive uniqueness,when it was somewhat obvious to many of us deemed impure "traitors",the removed post from the troll was correct.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 9:20 pm

HindleA wrote:Barring the basic factual error and his claim of some kind of predictive uniqueness,when it was somewhat obvious to many of us deemed impure "traitors",the removed post from the troll was correct.

But apart from that, Mrs Lincoln......

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 9:22 pm

Scrap that it was false consciousness,the biased media and the thick older for not being persuaded by continually being told they are thick.Of course ,some may think being seeminglly oblivious that the deployment of such relentless patronisation may not be the best tactic is evidence of being extremely thick:not me obviously.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 9:26 pm

But the media *is* biased, and (though not everybody likes to hear this) there arguably *is* such a thing as false consciousness.

Humdrum ordinary types hailing BoJo as a "man of the people" - where on earth else does that come from?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 10:51 pm

I wish I'd seen this "disappeared" post.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Fri 13 Dec, 2019 11:51 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:But the media *is* biased, and (though not everybody likes to hear this) there arguably *is* such a thing as false consciousness.

Humdrum ordinary types hailing BoJo as a "man of the people" - where on earth else does that come from?

Woman on the till at Sainsburys said "no one's talking about the election".

She then said "it's what we were all expecting" and then "I think we're all in shock".??

In relation to May she said that Boris was more "human". I guess, if pathological lying womaniser is more human than uptight head girl. Not entirely convinced myself.

I then said I was disappointed in the lack of climate action policies in the Tory manifesto. "I suppose we'll have to leave that to the rest of the world now" I said. "Yes" was the reply, "we're just a small island now". She's not wrong.

Very elderly lady behind me chimed in:
"We're here today and we'll still be here tomorrow".
Not her first disappointing election, I suspect.

Bought a copy of the Big Issue on my way out from a really sweet lady who wished me a Merry Christmas.

Bloody hell, it's a weird world.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:49 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:But the media *is* biased, and (though not everybody likes to hear this) there arguably *is* such a thing as false consciousness.

Humdrum ordinary types hailing BoJo as a "man of the people" - where on earth else does that come from?

It’s just bollocks. People have taken the notion that a balanced view means that everyone has a relevant view. Of course they do sociologically, but not with respect to different areas of expertise - whatever those areas might be.