Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th December 2019

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 10:22 am

Hello

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 10:25 am

Morning

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 10:36 am

Good morfternoon.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 10:55 am

Hello to you all, hopefully everybody has caught up on their sleep now.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 11:14 am

I got ridiculed for saying on election night that we might just have to wait for them to start dying off, but there's truth in it isn't there?

Though the instant polling verdicts on why we voted how we did on Thursday are already throwing up some interesting pointers. One being that, despite all the media hype, there weren't all that many direct Labour to Tory switchers (much more leakage to other parties and *not voting* - turnout was down overall despite the predictions) Secondly that whilst the leadership rather than Brexit was the most popular reason for not voting Labour, that wasn't true of those who voted for the party two years ago but not now.

Which suggests that Johnson's impressive looking electoral coalition is actually quite susceptible to events. The question is, can others capitalise on them?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 11:15 am

Where did Willow's post go?

Developing AH multi-post syndrome here......

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 11:18 am

Morning all.

Tom Clark
‏
Verified account

@prospect_clark
21h21 hours ago
More
Tl; dr

In sum
1. Labour has an easy fix - swapping leader
2. Bo Jo has an impossible Brexit call
3. The Centre-Left's vote shares were not awful
4. The new Tory coalition is fragile
5. They've few ideas
6. They are offering nostalgia

Starmer, Benn or Phillips are the names which seem to be cropping up.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 11:19 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Where did Willow's post go?

Yes - and as a filthy-rich southerner, I thought it was a good one.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 11:21 am

Good morning, everyone.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 11:22 am

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Tom Clark
‏
Verified account

@prospect_clark
21h21 hours ago
More
Tl; dr

In sum
1. Labour has an easy fix - swapping leader
2. Bo Jo has an impossible Brexit call
3. The Centre-Left's vote shares were not awful
4. The new Tory coalition is fragile
5. They've few ideas
6. They are offering nostalgia
Starmer, Benn or Phillips are the names which seem to be cropping up.

Oh, please not Jess Phillips. Admittedly, she has her moments but . . .

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 11:38 am

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Where did Willow's post go?

Developing AH multi-post syndrome here......

I deleted it because it was a bit of a rant without enough context. I realised after it might come across as a bit offensive to real people living in the northern part of the country, rather than just a rail at popular stereotypes that have long annoyed me.

The second point I made about the difficulties winning back retired voters who now get all their political information from the billionaire owned newspapers and are no longer exposed to the counter influence of unions and the labour movement because they no longer work is worth re-iterating, I think, because I suspect it's central to why Labour have lost ground in these post-industrial areas. The places which remain staunchly Labour locally are the ones where, although the factories are gone, the social clubs which accompanied them still persist.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:04 pm

RogerOThornhill wrote:Morning all.

Tom Clark
‏
Verified account

@prospect_clark
21h21 hours ago
More
Tl; dr

In sum
1. Labour has an easy fix - swapping leader
2. Bo Jo has an impossible Brexit call
3. The Centre-Left's vote shares were not awful
4. The new Tory coalition is fragile
5. They've few ideas
6. They are offering nostalgia
Starmer, Benn or Phillips are the names which seem to be cropping up.

Seriously, who wants Benn? A has been who never much impressed as a SC member.

Phillips has her fans in the media and online, but is seriously divisive (as much so as Corbyn it could be argued, even if in a slightly different way)

Starmer is the best bet of those three, but as a confirmed London remainer is he the one to win Labour's lost "heartlands" back? And does he have enough "charisma" (that is a test that Phillips passes if nothing else, shame about all her other problems)

Arguably the boxes are best ticked by Angela Rayner. She has been loyal to the outgoing leadership which is genuinely appreciated by the membership, but not slavishly so and has shown signs of being able to think for herself (which is less true of Rebecca LB, even if she has greatly improved since 2015) The real questions are, does she really want it and even if she does, is it still a bit too soon for her?

Wild card is perhaps Lisa Nandy, who has sadly squandered her undoubted talent since 2016 but maybe showed in her remarks since the GE that she "gets it".

frog222 · Post by **frog222** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:13 pm

Willow904 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Where did Willow's post go?

Developing AH multi-post syndrome here......
I deleted it because it was a bit of a rant without enough context. I realised after it might come across as a bit offensive to real people living in the northern part of the country, rather than just a rail at popular stereotypes that have long annoyed me.

The second point I made about the difficulties winning back retired voters who now get all their political information from the billionaire owned newspapers and are no longer exposed to the counter influence of unions and the labour movement because they no longer work is worth re-iterating, I think, because I suspect it's central to why Labour have lost ground in these post-industrial areas. The places which remain staunchly Labour locally are the ones where, although the factories are gone, the social clubs which accompanied them still persist.

This morning's Aditya Chakrabortti shows one way forward --
""In the 2017 election I wrote that a party that grew out of social institutions needed to turn itself into a social institution in precisely those areas it historically took for granted. That remains the key task: providing advice to those whose benefits are being slashed, legal support to tenants under the cosh from their landlords, haggling with the utilities to provide cheaper and better deals. Add to that: teaching political and economic literacy to voters, not just activists, and consulting constituents on what issues Labour should be battling on.""
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -136576770" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Far more ambitious than the present system of MP's 'surgeries' ?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:18 pm

Yes we Khan?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:18 pm

I know he's busy at the moment but ...

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:18 pm

My main concern at the moment is where is the coverage in the media of the response to Boris Johnson's election from the lifetime Tories who were encouraging voters to vote against him?

Where are the interviews with the northerners who stuck with Labour and their reaction to their constituencies going blue?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:19 pm

UK press is part of the problem. We have to operate within how things are rather than how they should be.
Am watching Mother, Father, Son. Terrifying.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:21 pm

Khan is an intriguing possibility, but firstly he would have to become an MP again and secondly his record as London Mayor has been "solid" rather than spectacular.

(though that was arguably also true of his predecessor, so.....)

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:36 pm

SH2 wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote:I got ridiculed for saying on election night that we might just have to wait for them to start dying off, but there's truth in it isn't there?

No there is not. You've said this after previous defeats as well. It was wrong then too.

The population is ageing. That section of society is getting bigger, not smaller.

And if the claim is "how you vote remains fixed throughout your life", we've just had a powerful illustration of why that is wrong. Cohorts don't remain fixed.

Four defeats on the bounce now. The last Labour leader to win a majority that could last a Parliament, other than you know who, was Wilson. In 1966.

Corbyn was a mistake. Before him Miliband was a mistake. Their approaches failed. Worse, they've done such damage to the Labour brand that it can't ever win on its own again. Whether there is a Labour leadership candidate prepared to tell the membership what they don't want to hear I doubt. The membership has been transformed anyway. Labour is now the problem.

Contrary to the leadership narrative, Brexit helped Labour. The counterfactual without it is worse not better. The Brexit party saved Labour in lots of seats (eg Miliband who had a safe seat, now has a majority of 2,000, where the BXP won 8,000, Cooper's seat is the same as are others). Labour also got lots of reluctant Remain votes, as it did in 2017. That was why it did so well then. With Brexit over, as it will be in 2024, those factors will be gone.

Labour had huge advantages going for it. Years of austerity. A terrible Tory leader, who has been repeatedly dishonest and who people don't like. A stagnant economy. Tory infighting, with a purge of the moderates. A cabinet of incompetents. A weakly led centrist alternative, that was starting from a very low base, that was always going to be crushed by FPTP. This wasn't 1987 or 1992.

Nor was it 1983. Then Thatcher had just won a war, and the SDP/Liberals provided a viable challenge.

Given the shambolic state of the governing party, this as easily the worst performance by the Labour party ever. (A case can be made that 1935 was worse but that was a solid recovery from 1931, which was exceptional because of party split.)

Lots of blame to go around of course, but the Labour members are primarily responsible for where we are.

And no, the approach of 1997 wouldn't work in 2019, but nobody rational is suggesting such idiocy.

And so we carry on with the homelessness, and universal credit, and the two child policy, and Brexit, and so on and on.

Corbyn needs to stay. Until the EHRC Report. Then he can go.

They need a complete re-set...but even then I'm not sure.

I voted Labour - but I was close to not doing so. Had a canvasser on the doorstep saying ' at least we won't be going back to the bad old days of Tony Blair...'

For heavens sake - that might work with party members - but not with ordinary voters. ( or me )

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:47 pm

This is worth a read

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ign-behind" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

'An exasperated party veteran said that while watching a Conservative press conference from Labour’s Southside HQ, a young press officer was heard to remark: “These Tories are so boring: they say the same thing over and over again.”

There was also intense frustration, even among diehard Corbyn loyalists, about the lack of organisation that left them unable to answer the most straightforward questions about Labour’s plans for the days ahead, or what its key messages would be.

“No one was allowed to see the grid,” complained one adviser to a shadow cabinet minister. “Basically the grid leaked early in the campaign, and then they went super paranoid. We had a grid: but because no one knew what was in it, it was completely useless as an organisational tool. The whole point of the grid is that everyone has a vague idea of what’s happening: and who’s going where on what day.” On some days the party sent out two or even three policy press releases for the next day’s papers.

The question of who was in charge of the campaign was at times as hard to answer as what was on the grid. The most senior official was Karie Murphy, whom Corbyn had sidelined from running his office after she disobeyed him over a plan to abolish deputy leader Tom Watson’s job.'

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:54 pm

I've been reading my books and not the news. Last week, Mr citizen surprised me with the gift of Pullman's recently published The Secret Commonwealth, the second volume in The Book of Dust series (related to His Dark Materials trilogy). I finished it late last night. The story contains general parallels with current events. The ending is a cliffhanger. Pullman is currently writing at least one more volume in this series.

The GE results have frightened me; I'm unashamed admitting that.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:55 pm

Here's my previously deleted post. I was afraid it came across as a bit bitter and hateful but really it's about the position lots of Labour voters in the North are now waking up to but is oh so familiar to those of us living down South. I posted last night about the people I met out and about yesterday in our safe Tory seat. They were all lovely. How is it that such lovely people are represented by a monster like Jacob Rees-Mogg? I really don't know and I don't have any answers as to how Labour can come back from here, I just know that nice people, who have no interest in Brexit or immigrant bashing, deserve representation too:

Boris Johnson to visit new Tory seats in the north
Good, they're welcome to him. The North/South divide has gone. No longer will I have to put up with northerners attacking me for being a "well-off" Tory-voting southerner. They now have their own Tory voters in their midst and can begin their own frustrating journey of being blamed for everything shit the Tories do because their numpty neighbours insist on voting for them,whilst simultaneously moaning about the lack of buses or long waits for GP appointments as if it's nothing to do with their choice at the polls. We are now all equally, north and south, in the grip of the aging, newspaper reading generation who consider a vote for the Tories after 9 years of government as a vote for "change" because that's what Murdoch has been whispering in their ear. As retirement has divorced many of them from the countering influence of unions and the labour movement it's hard to see, with the billionaire dominance of the press, how they can be won back.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 12:59 pm

Willow904 wrote:My main concern at the moment is where is the coverage in the media of the response to Boris Johnson's election from the lifetime Tories who were encouraging voters to vote against him?

Where are the interviews with the northerners who stuck with Labour and their reaction to their constituencies going blue?

Good questions

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 1:04 pm

Corbyn was not a great leader, I've never been keen on him as you all know, but he didn't create Labour's difficulties, he merely failed to solve them.

Ed Miliband was right about the problems, his priorities of media and constitutional reform were bang on. Many of the policies proposed by Corbyn and McDonnell, especially proposals to tackle climate change, were also solid.

Getting into power to fix the rigged system that prevents Labour getting into power is the conundrum. The person to solve it will need to be a political titan, not a mild mannered long serving backbencher. If we take away anything from this defeat, I hope it's that.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 1:08 pm

Lost Soul wrote:---
They need a complete re-set...but even then I'm not sure.

I voted Labour - but I was close to not doing so. Had a canvasser on the doorstep saying ' at least we won't be going back to the bad old days of Tony Blair...'

For heavens sake - that might work with party members - but not with ordinary voters. ( or me )

(cJA edit)

I'm a Labour party member and voter because whether it's led by Blair or Corbyn the Labour party protect the interests of regular people no other UK-wide political party will.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 1:18 pm

@Willow904
I don't find anything hateful or bitter about your post.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 1:19 pm

Willow904 wrote:Corbyn was not a great leader, I've never been keen on him as you all know, but he didn't create Labour's difficulties, he merely failed to solve them.

Ed Miliband was right about the problems, his priorities of media and constitutional reform were bang on. Many of the policies proposed by Corbyn and McDonnell, especially proposals to tackle climate change, were also solid.

Getting into power to fix the rigged system that prevents Labour getting into power is the conundrum. The person to solve it will need to be a political titan, not a mild mannered long serving backbencher. If we take away anything from this defeat, I hope it's that.

Yep

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 1:26 pm

From what I can tell from the press, Jeremy Corbyn's departure from the Labour Party leadership will also result in John McDonnell taking a back-seat. That will be a shame.

Edited - typo

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 1:31 pm

New York cheesecake should not have a biscuit base.

There - I've got that off my chest. It's been simmering for ages.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 1:44 pm

PorFavor wrote:New York cheesecake should not have a biscuit base.

There - I've got that off my chest. It's been simmering for ages.

What base do you use? Are you suggesting New York cheesecake without a base at all?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 1:47 pm

citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:New York cheesecake should not have a biscuit base.

There - I've got that off my chest. It's been simmering for ages.
What base do you use? Are you suggesting New York cheesecake without a base at all?

Very thin sponge.

Edited to add -

Quite fiddly and beyond my capabilities now. But such a cheesecake can be bought if you look extremely hard. Waitrose used to do one (one of my few extravangancies) on their cake\bakery counter - which is, sadly, no more. It went by the wayside a few years ago.

Edited again - typo

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 1:54 pm

citizenJA wrote:@Willow904
I don't find anything hateful or bitter about your post.

Ah, but are you a "northerner"?!

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 2:07 pm

Sorry about the New York detour. Displacement therapy.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 2:23 pm

Let's have some numbers, shall we?

Here we go - 37, 28, 32, 35, 44, 42, 36, 30, 31, 41, 33.

As a few keen students of politics stats may realise, they are Labour's (GB) vote share in every GE from 1979 onwards.

Now what stands out about them??

Its actually the remarkable steadiness of their support. The obvious exceptions are 1983 on the debit scale (there's a reason why that remains a benchmark in electoral and political ineptitude) and 1997/2001 the other way (for pretty obvious reasons also) But the other one that stands out like a sore thumb is.....2017.

Why did that happen, and why didn't Labour build on it to enter government this time? It would be nice if mainstream pundits and academics had shown some interest in that first question - rather than putting their fingers in their ears, pretending it didn't happen and just wanting Corbyn to go away. Well now they are about to get that last wish, at least. But I still doubt that will lead to things turning out the way they want.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 2:44 pm

Willow904 wrote:
citizenJA wrote:@Willow904
I don't find anything hateful or bitter about your post.
Ah, but are you a "northerner"?!

Stoke

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 2:46 pm

PorFavor wrote:Sorry about the New York detour. Displacement therapy.

New York cheesecakes are always worth discussing.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 2:49 pm

Yes, it's West Midlands, not North, but I think Willow's post was relevant to our constituency

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 2:52 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:Let's have some numbers, shall we?

Here we go - 37, 28, 32, 35, 44, 42, 36, 30, 31, 41, 33.

As a few keen students of politics stats may realise, they are Labour's (GB) vote share in every GE from 1979 onwards.

Now what stands out about them??

Its actually the remarkable steadiness of their support. The obvious exceptions are 1983 on the debit scale (there's a reason why that remains a benchmark in electoral and political ineptitude) and 1997/2001 the other way (for pretty obvious reasons also) But the other one that stands out like a sore thumb is.....2017.

Why did that happen, and why didn't Labour build on it to enter government this time? It would be nice if mainstream pundits and academics had shown some interest in that first question - rather than putting their fingers in their ears, pretending it didn't happen and just wanting Corbyn to go away. Well now they are about to get that last wish, at least. But I still doubt that will lead to things turning out the way they want.

(cJA bold)

They won't while house price values are more important than people.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 3:22 pm

Thought you would say that 2017 was "all about Brexit".

It maybe was, but not in the way uber-remainers wanted to imagine. Truth is, Johnson got the campaign this time May had wanted then - that Labour were obstructing the "will of the people" that we should leave the EU and vote for her to achieve it. By taking the relatively non-committal "respect the result" position it did then, Labour frustrated that ambition and thus left the Tory campaign having to rely on other issues where Labour were stronger (and that is maybe one reason why it was so "inept") Now, I understand that position for Labour was likely untenable this time round for various reasons - but at the very least this week has surely buried the "IF ONLY LABOUR BACKED REMAIN IT WOULD BE 20 POINTS AHEAD" uber-remainer founding myth forever.

(and the Tory message on Brexit still had *some* purchase in 2017 - as the swings to them in several leave areas, so spectacularly built on this week, showed. That should have warned us all but no, the "remainer" political/media class decided declaring 17.5 million people as "unpersons" was a totally sound electoral strategy - great stuff guys)

And its quite plausible the timing of this election was at the worst possible time for the opposition as well - either earlier (when the spectre of "no deal" genuinely spooked many people, Tory voters included) or later (after we had actually Brexited) might easily have been less good for the Tories.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 3:46 pm

As a northener I'm not offended by your post willow, but then my constituency probably bears more resemblance to yours than to, say, west Durham.

If Boris lasts 5 years I don't think we will, we'll be moving to Scotland, half my family's already there. I've no love for the SNP mind.

At the shops this morning, out of the blue one of the staff in the bakers asked if I thought he'd really sell the NHS, I said no, he'll give it loads of money so that the private sector can take loads out, it would still be free but the service will be terrible and you'll have to pay if you want better.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 3:55 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote: the other one that stands out like a sore thumb is.....2017.

Why did that happen, and why didn't Labour build on it to enter government this time?

I don't think the right wing took Corbyn seriously before 2017. He was taking so much flak from his own side they thought he was a joke, 2017 GE showed they were wrong.

They pulled out all the stops this time.

Clever targeting. Trump won because his backers could spot the weakness in the US constitution to exploit, so never mind the east and west coasts, the states in the middle have just as much say so find the message for them. Here, they could see that although Brexit was mainly a southern middle class phenomenon, the northern working class were the ones to target to get the job done, forget about the cities.

Is that too much of a conspiracy theory?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 4:25 pm

Corbyn became Labour leader in 2015 for actual reasons. Your wing of politics showed no interest in them.

Think how things might have been different if large parts of the party establishment hadn't tried to hobble him from the start. Hell, the same was true for his predecessor in only slightly diluted form. Miliband had largely the correct instincts on what Labour needed to do to come back but for various reasons couldn't fully follow them through. For all his personal failings and baggage (and I agree he was *always* a net negative with voters) Corbyn actually did a better job of that.

Of course, I didn't support him in either leadership election. Nor did I vote for Watson - now, that's one person who you were right about

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 4:37 pm

gilsey wrote:
AnatolyKasparov wrote: the other one that stands out like a sore thumb is.....2017.

Why did that happen, and why didn't Labour build on it to enter government this time?
I don't think the right wing took Corbyn seriously before 2017. He was taking so much flak from his own side they thought he was a joke, 2017 GE showed they were wrong.

They pulled out all the stops this time.

Clever targeting. Trump won because his backers could spot the weakness in the US constitution to exploit, so never mind the east and west coasts, the states in the middle have just as much say so find the message for them. Here, they could see that although Brexit was mainly a southern middle class phenomenon, the northern working class were the ones to target to get the job done, forget about the cities.

Is that too much of a conspiracy theory?

May didn't enjoy the full backing of her own side, either, with widespread press attacks on her "dementia tax". Johnson was always waiting in the wings for her to fail, with his vote leave team on standby to deploy the same tactics used to secure the referendum vote, tactics that are still under criminal investigation. May only had a traditional campaign, as far as I can tell, while Johnson was supported with targeted interventions from Farage, saturation use of social media and an almost completely compliant and re-inforcing press. The one attempt to hold him to account by Andrew Neil being quickly shut down with a dictatorial threat to disband the BBC. In 2017 Corbyn went up against an awkward, uncharismatic woman not especially loved by her own voters. In 2019 he was up against an alpha male with a well rehearsed loveable rogue act still enjoying his new leader bounce. Ideally Labour needed to put off an election until Boris' new gloss had lost a little of its lustre, but for whatever reason they were not able to and now we're stuck with him for the foreseeable.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 4:55 pm

One reason why Labour weren't able to delay the election into 2020 - Jo Swinson.

That went well for her, eh?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 5:06 pm

Charities helping the most vulnerable in society have reported an increase in support after the Conservative victory in the general election, reports Georgina Hayes.

Shelter, Refuge, the Trussell Trust and the Biscuit Fund have all confirmed they have seen a sharp increase in donations and/or registered supporters as a result of the election outcome.

While unable to give exact numbers, the UK homelessness and housing charity Shelter said it had seen an increase in the number of people signing up as supporters since the result. (Politics Live, Guardian)

I'm guessing that support for charities also usually swells around this time of year.

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 5:13 pm

AnatolyKasparov wrote:One reason why Labour weren't able to delay the election into 2020 - Jo Swinson.

That went well for her, eh?

Poetic justice.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 5:21 pm

gilsey wrote:As a northener I'm not offended by your post willow, but then my constituency probably bears more resemblance to yours than to, say, west Durham.

If Boris lasts 5 years I don't think we will, we'll be moving to Scotland, half my family's already there. I've no love for the SNP mind.

At the shops this morning, out of the blue one of the staff in the bakers asked if I thought he'd really sell the NHS, I said no, he'll give it loads of money so that the private sector can take loads out, it would still be free but the service will be terrible and you'll have to pay if you want better.

I agree with you about moving to Scotland though we've no family there right now.

Post by **refitman** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 5:28 pm

SH2 wrote:This line that voting for an election was all a terrible mistake ignores the Commons numbers.

Johnson had won over the ERG. He had the numbers to get Brexit through. The election was the last throw to stop it. The votes showed it.

I don't see what choice Swinson had.

That failed of course. Brexit, alongside the destruction of Labour as a viable party of government. Corbyn's responsibility.

And we don't have even a flicker of remorse from him (compare Miluband 2015). They have to keep control over the Labour movement.

But, as I say, I'd prefer him to stay until the EHRC report. I'd like him and his faction to have to face that. Perhaps the scales will then fall from a few eyes.

You can fuck right off again, if you're gonna be slinging AS accusations around.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 5:45 pm

In my more cynical moments I do wonder how much interest *certain people* will show about AS in Labour once Corbyn has gone.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sat 14 Dec, 2019 6:05 pm

I do know this.

And still less am I claiming that *all* those concerned about AS in Labour are like that.

But we all know that some are.