Saturday 14th & Sunday 15th December 2019

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 3:51 pm

Good morfternoon.

Many people fall between two stools and so may well feel uncomfortable, or even bullied, at being expected to choose a side.

Edited - tidy up

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 4:26 pm

"I hate Germans they bombed our chip shop during the war"Perhaps instead of ranting at a supposed transgression of an immutable law ask yourself as to why.I humbly suggest any body even with a tangental relationship with the "working class"not least the low skilled is in no way surprised.I found zero support for Labour and if a preference given was for the Tory,I stuck out like a sore thumb.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 4:36 pm

This quote from the Independent's interview with Ben Drew (Plan B) explains what I'm on about -

"We weren't working class but we weren't middle class," [Ben]Drew has said. "We were in the void in between."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/peop ... 75736.html

That "void" can actually be quite a difficult space to inhabit.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 4:38 pm

I never said Corbyn was hard left,lazily or otherwise.Unlike the reaction of the hard leftists,a missumption was made and of course there is a connection,to pretend otherwise is delusional IMHO.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 4:43 pm

I don't remember doing that last edit!

Edited to add -

Still less, why.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 4:48 pm

PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Many people fall between two stools and so may well feel uncomfortable, or even bullied, at being expected to choose a side.

Edited - tidy up

I think PorFavor has identified something fundamentally important regarding current affairs right here. What I've written below may be related but I won't presume.

Independently wealthy people not reliant on their labour or pensions in multiple nations aren't working class and the rest of us are. My class definition isn't the same as contemporary and historical class designations but those traditional meanings divide people compromising their best interests. Identifying with each other instead of quarrelling would help. I don't know how to do that.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 4:50 pm

PorFavor wrote:This quote from the Independent's interview with Ben Drew (Plan B) explains what I'm on about -

"We weren't working class but we weren't middle class," [Ben]Drew has said. "We were in the void in between."
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/peop ... 75736.html

That "void" can actually be quite a difficult space to inhabit.

(cJA bold)
That suits Tories fine. The confusion is priceless.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 4:52 pm

Well said!

Edited to add - the income one, particularly. I couldn't think how to express it. Thanks.

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 4:56 pm

Sorry. I just can't help it.

[youtube]rQjh9H-ymK4[/youtube]

RogerOThornhill · Post by **RogerOThornhill** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 5:18 pm

Did we see this already?

John Simpson
‏
Verified account

@JohnSimpsonNews
Follow Follow @JohnSimpsonNews
More
Downing Street is putting out the word that it is boycotting @Radio4Today because of its, and the BBC’s, ‘bias’ against Boris Johnson & the Conservatives during the campaign.

12:38 AM - 15 Dec 2019

I suspect it won't last long - probably the first crisis in the NHS or something over Brexit and then they'll be keen to put their POV.

That careless "Oh, we'll look at the license fee" 3 days before the count was no accident was it?

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 5:33 pm

Further to RogerOThornhill's post -

Boris Johnson threatens BBC with two-pronged attack

No 10 boycotts Today programme and considers decriminalising non-payment of licence fee
(Guardian)

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/ ... ged-attack

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 5:37 pm

The BBC didn’t abase themselves quite enough, then.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 6:16 pm

citizenJA wrote:
PorFavor wrote:Good morfternoon.

Many people fall between two stools and so may well feel uncomfortable, or even bullied, at being expected to choose a side.
Edited - tidy up
I think PorFavor has identified something fundamentally important regarding current affairs right here. What I've written below may be related but I won't presume.

Independently wealthy people not reliant on their labour or pensions in multiple nations aren't working class and the rest of us are. My class definition isn't the same as contemporary and historical class designations but those traditional meanings divide people compromising their best interests. Identifying with each other instead of quarrelling would help. I don't know how to do that.

(cJA bold)
I don't know how to get people more readily identifying with each other rather than regarding others warily if at all. I'm making a generalisation about peoples' wariness and/or indifference towards each other. Some communities cooperate better than others, have systems in place unifying; where people aren't estranged from one another. Also, it's not just the UK; alienated peoples within nations or states happen everywhere. I'm writing about the UK right now because it's my only home and I've a vested interest advocating greater cooperation and prosperity shared fairly for everyone. Everyone's success and safety should be the first goal of any UK government (or other nations' government).

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 6:20 pm

It’s biology. Cultural rules help us to override it, but it’s still there. In group out group.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 6:20 pm

We need to work on overriding it more often,

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 6:56 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:We need to work on overriding it more often,

I agree

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 7:16 pm

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10 ... 0617732393" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Populism as Identity Politics: Perceived In-Group Disadvantage, Collective Narcissism, and Support for Populism

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 7:18 pm

Populists combine anti-elitism with a conviction that they hold a superior vision of what it means to be a true citizen of their nation. We expected support for populism to be associated with national collective narcissism—an unrealistic belief in the greatness of the national group, which should increase in response to perceived in-group disadvantage. In Study 1 (Polish participants; n = 1,007), national collective narcissism predicted support for the populist Law and Justice party. In the experimental Study 2 (British participants; n = 497), perceived long-term in-group disadvantage led to greater support for Brexit and this relationship was accounted for by national collective narcissism. In Study 3 (American participants; n = 403), group relative deprivation predicted support for Donald Trump and this relationship was accounted for by national collective narcissism. These associations were present even when we controlled for conventional national identification. We discuss implications of the link between collective narcissism and support for populism.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 8:18 pm

Labour now needs to go to its membership for advice

Lost Soul · Post by **Lost Soul** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 8:34 pm

I've set aside my £3.00...

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 8:34 pm

I'm not a Labour member currently, but as someone who was until recently I rather have to ask the question "what the hell would I know"? As an adherent of F1, all I know about winning is you look at the teams that are doing well and try and poach their staff. I'm not sure how helpful that is in this particular instance

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 8:40 pm

Labour party needs to listen to the electorate and fuck the membership,frankly.(think about it)

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 8:51 pm

I suspect that the Labour membership comprise part of the electorate. But thanks for the - er - advice.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:02 pm

BJ’s just demonstrated that the electorate doesn’t know what’s good for them.

What’s the lesson for Labour?

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:05 pm

One of the benefits of having a large membership is that there is actually less of a divide with the "electorate" - part of the problem is that the rise in Labour's numbers in the past 5 years has been less in areas like AH's than in many places where they have done well electorally in the last two GE's. The solution to that is not to revert to a small, passive party effectively run by SpADs but to think of increasing its ranks to a million or more. Of course, making joining the party less expensive might help there <cough>

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:24 pm

tinyclanger2 wrote:I suspect that the Labour membership comprise part of the electorate. But thanks for the - er - advice.

Are you saying that I was supposed to vote aswell? Bit late telling me now . . .

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:29 pm

There wasn't much sign of that membership "diversity" during the last NEC elections. As things stand, it's likely the membership will elect whoever Momentum tells them to elect as the next leader, so the real question is probably whether or not Momentum's leadership are close to the electorate.

Will be pleased to be proved wrong, I'd like to be surprised by some genuine soul searching, but I doubt it.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:38 pm

Willow904 wrote:There wasn't much sign of that membership "diversity" during the last NEC elections. As things stand, it's likely the membership will elect whoever Momentum tells them to elect as the next leader, so the real question is probably whether or not Momentum's leadership are close to the electorate.

Will be pleased to be proved wrong, I'd like to be surprised by some genuine soul searching, but I doubt it.

Is that group really all that powerful within the Labour party?

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:41 pm

As a member I would advise significant change in selection processes for a start.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:45 pm

The purpose and effect of Momentum is indeed specifically to remove diversity,not insignificant numbers of membrs are completely aware of their and their proponents deception.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:45 pm

gilsey wrote:BJ’s just demonstrated that the electorate doesn’t know what’s good for them.

What’s the lesson for Labour?

I sincerely don't know. I'm still shocked.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:51 pm

HindleA wrote:The purpose and effect of Momentum is indeed specifically to remove diversity,not insignificant numbers of membrs are completely aware of their and their proponents deception.

It seems silly not to include as many people as possible within the Labour party. I always thought that was the point of a political party for everyone without a trust fund and a title.

AnatolyKasparov · Post by **AnatolyKasparov** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:51 pm

Willow904 wrote:There wasn't much sign of that membership "diversity" during the last NEC elections. As things stand, it's likely the membership will elect whoever Momentum tells them to elect as the next leader, so the real question is probably whether or not Momentum's leadership are close to the electorate.

Will be pleased to be proved wrong, I'd like to be surprised by some genuine soul searching, but I doubt it.

Well, one result of a further surge in membership might be to make things less certain there.

In the last 48 hours I have certainly seen a few members - previously 100% pro-Corbyn - say that the next leader has to be a *bit* more to the centre. This is the attraction of Rayner to many of us, loyal to the leadership since 2015 and in no way a wrecker, but not the sort of clone that RLB or Burgon are suspected of being.

(the former maybe a bit unfairly - the latter, well.......)

Willow904 · Post by **Willow904** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:52 pm

citizenJA wrote:
Willow904 wrote:There wasn't much sign of that membership "diversity" during the last NEC elections. As things stand, it's likely the membership will elect whoever Momentum tells them to elect as the next leader, so the real question is probably whether or not Momentum's leadership are close to the electorate.

Will be pleased to be proved wrong, I'd like to be surprised by some genuine soul searching, but I doubt it.
Is that group really all that powerful within the Labour party?

I don't really know for certain but the leadership contest should tell us, one way or the other.

tinyclanger2 · Post by **tinyclanger2** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:57 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... selections" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Labour accused of 'control-freakery' over candidate selections

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 9:58 pm

@AnatolyKasparov

Angela Rayner seems the best choice to me.

Edited - to add a "v"

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:00 pm

Look what media do to Labour leaders.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:00 pm

PorFavor wrote:@AnatolyKasparo

Angela Rayner seems the best choice to me.

Same here.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:11 pm

Why exclude on any basis,I thought better of Cja.I have both a trust fund and the title "Supreme Being of both the Known and Unknown World"(among others)

PorFavor · Post by **PorFavor** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:14 pm

I'd heard that there was chaos in Doncaster . . .

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:14 pm

HindleA wrote:Why exclude on any basis,I thought better of Cja.I have both a trust fund and the title "Supreme Being of both the Known and Unknown World"(among others)

I didn't exclude the trust funder. The trust funder would be free to join the Labour party. I didn't think I'd have to mention it. I'll add that the trust fund recipient already has a political party and influence working class people don't.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:17 pm

Had my friend over from Halifax where Labour held on despite the exit poll.

I don't know how many of you read my post explaining the situation.

But the Tories lost because they put forward an Asian Muslim candidate.

One wonders what they were thinking.

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:17 pm

The more the defeat ,the supposed more due to media bias and the more the threat'must have been is a circuituous route to nowhere.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:18 pm

PorFavor wrote:I'd heard that there was chaos in Doncaster . . .

Yes. I just checked out the results. I don't understand the choices people make. Most people will get nothing but sorrow from Tories and the Brexit party (or UKIP or BNP).

HindleA · Post by **HindleA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:21 pm

You don't have to be hard left to exhibit/be effected by their pernicious consequences,there is no "but",it was a fucking disaster.Indeed a radical transformation is needed.

Sky'sGoneOut · Post by **Sky'sGoneOut** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:24 pm

I just want to make sure all of us are ok, because I'm not.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:25 pm

HindleA wrote:The more the defeat ,the supposed more due to media bias and the more the threat'must have been is a circuituous route to nowhere.

Have you seen my reply about the including the trust fund recipient in the Labour party on the other page? ~~I don't appreciate your accusation. It's undeserved.~~

I'm sorry

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:28 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:I just want to make sure all of us are ok, because I'm not.

I'm not okay. I'm okay enough at the moment. I know about the PM and party returned to Parliament is their history for the last nine years. They've got a majority. I've read their manifesto. Their leader is a liar.

gilsey · Post by **gilsey** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:29 pm

Sky'sGoneOut wrote:I just want to make sure all of us are ok, because I'm not.

None of us are ok. Precise details may vary.

citizenJA · Post by **citizenJA** » Sun 15 Dec, 2019 10:30 pm

HindleA wrote:You don't have to be hard left to exhibit/be effected by their pernicious consequences,there is no "but",it was a fucking disaster.Indeed a radical transformation is needed.

I'm listening. Please go on.